The Rise of the Uber-High End Integrated Amp

[Birdwatcher]

Don’t forget the nice Jeff Rowland Daemon. Including fantastic DAC and really good phono stage. Drives everything with 1500W. I use ist for 10 months now beneath different other systems and like it really. beca of the various connectivity you can use it just as a DAC, or Phono+Pre or just as an amp, or DAC+pre.

 

[Rhapsody]

$50k for a lifestyle system? isn't that what Bose goes after?

There are 22 million millionaire households in the US as of 2020. Probably 23 or 24M now.

Rhapsody alone probably has 100+ customers that has what I would classify as lifestyle systems that all involve video and non-dedicated rooms. These customers have + or - $50K type systems. That's Rhapsody that doesn't even have .01% of this higher end lifestyle type customer.

Bose is the overall lifestyle market, Devialet with their Phantoms has cracked that market as well, but it's not the high-end lifestyle market that also exists, albeit at a fraction of the overall lifestyle mass market.

There are a LOT of 60+ year old audiophiles that also have had big systems over the years that now want a high end integrated with speakers and video is many times involved as well. TINY Rhapsody alone has more customers like this vs true big time system customers.

I am not speaking about the WBF or forum crowds, we are a small niche compared to the high end lifestyle crowd that does exist in the overall market. A $50K system is nothing for them, but USUALLY involves video as well.

 

[Tango]

There are 22 million millionaire households in the US as of 2020. Probably 23 or 24M now.

Rhapsody alone probably has 100+ customers that has what I would classify as lifestyle systems that all involve video and non-dedicated rooms. These customers have + or - $50K type systems. That's Rhapsody that doesn't even have .01% of this higher end lifestyle type customer.

Bose is the overall lifestyle market, Devialet with their Phantoms has cracked that market as well, but it's not the high-end lifestyle market that also exists, albeit at a fraction of the overall lifestyle mass market.

There are a LOT of 60+ year old audiophiles that also have had big systems over the years that now want a high end integrated with speakers and video is many times involved as well. TINY Rhapsody alone has more customers like this vs true big time system customers.

I am not speaking about the WBF or forum crowds, we are a small niche compared to the high end lifestyle crowd that does exist in the overall market. A $50K system is nothing for them, but USUALLY involves video as well.

Funny. I was writing some thing like this and also said Rhapsody Bob only know so well of this mkt, then I pressed delete. With today's digital economy, multi millionares pop up like mushrooms. Luxury markets have never been better.

 

[Rhapsody]

Funny. I was writing some thing like this and also said Rhapsody Bob only know so well of this mkt, then I pressed delete. With today's digital economy, multi millionares pop up like mushrooms. Luxury markets have never been better.

It is amazing and my experience is that very few of these type customers are forum type audiophiles. A lot of them know forums exist, I even tell them to read certain threads etc, but they are not really interested in participation, but they do like great sounding music in their house. These customers do exist.

Most of them would most likely pick a $35K Devialet Ex Pro 1000 and speakers, which integrates into their Crestron/Savant system along with video vs a $50K 200lb integrated, but there is a % of these type customers that will want a big heavy duty integrated, even if it does not interface with the home automation system.

 

[bryans]

Because the market for them is very small? I've heard selling stereo amps above $25k is difficult as is.

One thing I've thought about is why not just get a TVC/AVC and your favorite stereo amp. Isn't a CH A1.5 with a Music First or Bespoke likely better than an I1?

Sorry I don't agree with you here. Sure it is hard selling amps above 25K but either you want an integrated or you don't.

If one feels getting separates are a better way to go for them then great. Only you can tell if it is a better solution for you. As I mentioned before, to me it depends. I have heard plenty of Integrated amps that I like better than separates and vise versa.

 

[Derekw14]

High quality integrateds are not new. The best I've heard - Pathos TT, Kondo Ongaku, Melody AN300B and AN211, Audiomat Opera, Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE, and several others have sounded as good to me as any separates I've heard at any price, including the megabuck separates. If I had a much bigger listening room I might want separates. But since I've always had a small room and limited power requirements I've only owned integrated amps. Don't see that changing particularly given how "crazy good" my extensively modified Pathos TT RR is.

+1 for the amazing Pathos TT, a killer integrated at a real world price. Please share your modifications!

 

[DasguteOhr]

Linear Acoustic La Tube 1 Amp , if you find one used buy it it is a Masterpiece.
2×45Watt Triode mode, or ultralinear 2×80watt,can be operated via glass touch panel or remote control. Equipped with a phase-stable tone control on and off mode.

 

[Cellcbern]

+1 for the amazing Pathos TT, a killer integrated at a real world price. Please share your modifications!

See the thread:

Pathos TT RR Mods/Upgrades - 2

Superb job by Bill Thalman of Music Technology, Inc. in Springfield, VA on the 2nd and most ambitious upgrade (3rd photo from left) of my (made in 2004) Pathos TT RR. The attached photos show the differences between the stock amp and the modified versions. No changes in circuit design, just...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think i could also be perfectly happy with a

Octave Audio V 80 SE​

Based on hearing other octave products , i might add a Octave black box though

And its far from 50 K , i dont have to spend 50 K on an integrated .
And whether those " UBER " higher priced products are " better " is more a question of taste rather then quality afaic.

Ps .That new Jeff Rowland looks nice though

 

[unboxed]

VAC Statement 450i iQ

 

[germinal]

One of the biggest industry shifts over the past 20 years has been to more sophisticated (and expensive) integrateds. People clearly like having a single box that provides great sound with less cable and power cord expense. My first exposure to the segment was the vaunted JRDG Concentra II amp back in 2001. I think almost every hifi electronics company now makes an even higher end integrated amplifier ~$10k that is designed to emulate separates at a lower cost. Some of these include(d):

Ayre AX-5 Twenty
Vac Sigma 170i
McIntosh MA-8000
Pass Labs INT-60
Gryphon Diablo
Luxman 590ax

Then came the rise of the "super" integrated - companies like DarTZeel CTH-8550, Vitus SIA-25, and Constellation Argo produced a ~$25k integrated that took things to the next level. Dart, to Herve's credit, includes a phono stage that makes the value argument nice if you like analog. Others might include a dac. I owned the DarTZeel for several years and loved its sound and flexibility.

Now, $25k is old school and we are moving to the $50k uber integrated:

CH Precision I1- starts at $38k but easily up to $50k
Soulution 530- $49k
Audionet Humboldt- $55k
D'agostino Momentum- $49k
Vitus SIA-30- $46k plus options
Pilium Leonidas- $40k

At what point do we give up on the integrated and require separates? Are these uber integrateds still compromised by not having separate power supplies and output stages. I'm hard pressed to find a difference in the recent doubling of price for performance reasons. I would also expect resale to be low for them as a result. Thoughts?

Question might also be.. is there a real audible difference in sound between those 10k and 50k integrated amps ?

Or do they simply exist because surely more expensive needs to be better ? And there is a booming luxury market.

A local Porsche dealer told me they ve never had a better year than 2021.. too much people with too much money I guess

 

[andromedaaudio]

Question might also be.. is there a real audible difference in sound between those 10k and 50k integrated amps ?

Not really if you have relatively easy to drive speakers .
If you have power hungry speakers amplifier cost can add up quit rapidly .

 

[morricab]

High quality integrateds are not new. The best I've heard - Pathos TT, Kondo Ongaku, Melody AN300B and AN211, Audiomat Opera, Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE, and several others have sounded as good to me as any separates I've heard at any price, including the megabuck separates. If I had a much bigger listening room I might want separates. But since I've always had a small room and limited power requirements I've only owned integrated amps. Don't see that changing particularly given how "crazy good" my extensively modified Pathos TT RR is.

How Is it modified ?

 

[Cellcbern]

How Is it modified ?

See the WBF thread about it:

Pathos TT RR Mods/Upgrades - 2

Superb job by Bill Thalman of Music Technology, Inc. in Springfield, VA on the 2nd and most ambitious upgrade (3rd photo from left) of my (made in 2004) Pathos TT RR. The attached photos show the differences between the stock amp and the modified versions. No changes in circuit design, just...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Final mods included additional wiring upgrades (see photo below). With this 2nd round of mods it is at a "last amp I'll ever buy" level of performance. I have not heard any amp at any price, e.g., at Capital Audiofest, dealers, and in friend's systems (including Vinnie Rossi, Dartzeel, Gryphon, etc.) that I would trade it for. Photo of stock amp internals provided for comparison. Bought the stock amp used for about $3K and have spent about $6K on two rounds of mods/upgrades. Sound quality is now "world class" in my opinion.

 

[Birdwatcher]

…not much left from the original Pathos indeed…

 

[Cellcbern]

…not much left from the original Pathos indeed…

Capacitor, resistor, tube socket, wiring, and connector upgrades; addition of Bybee Music Rails; latest versions of Pathos main and power transistor boards, and big red electrolytic caps; Alps Black Beauty volume pot in place of (failed) stock volume controls; everything else stock. Mods designed/executed in consultation with the Pathos factory. As frequently occurs, a superior circuit design was manufactured with cheap parts to meet a price point, leaving plenty of scope for upgrading.

 

[gleeds]

It is amazing and my experience is that very few of these type customers are forum type audiophiles. A lot of them know forums exist, I even tell them to read certain threads etc, but they are not really interested in participation, but they do like great sounding music in their house. These customers do exist.

Most of them would most likely pick a $35K Devialet Ex Pro 1000 and speakers, which integrates into their Crestron/Savant system along with video vs a $50K 200lb integrated, but there is a % of these type customers that will want a big heavy duty integrated, even if it does not interface with the home automation system.

 

[gleeds]

Bob, I wanted to add to your comments, especially about lifestyle buyers and high-end systems where playback of video is concerned. It is good to see brands like Rose Music and Lumin now providing multiple HDMI inputs on their higher-end DAC/streamers. Combine one of those products with a top-class integrated and speakers as Bob suggested and you have a terrific lifestyle/audiophile approved system for the more lifestyle oriented customer.

I am finding customers are getting more and more interested in high-end integrateds, even some pretty expensive ones. One recent customer (a dedicated younger audiophile) recently went from Nagra and Boulder separates to a darTZeel 8550 integrated and that pleasantly surprised me.

Bob, thanks for getting the conversation started.

​

 

[Holli82]

VAC Statement 450i iQ

View attachment 87854

This isn’t bad either….if you can find it.

 

[matakana]

Bob, I wanted to add to your comments, especially about lifestyle buyers and high-end systems where playback of video is concerned. It is good to see brands like Rose Music and Lumin now providing multiple HDMI inputs on their higher-end DAC/streamers. Combine one of those products with a top-class integrated and speakers as Bob suggested and you have a terrific lifestyle/audiophile approved system for the more lifestyle oriented customer.

I am finding customers are getting more and more interested in high-end integrateds, even some pretty expensive ones. One recent customer (a dedicated younger audiophile) recently went from Nagra and Boulder separates to a darTZeel 8550 integrated and that pleasantly surprised me.

Bob, thanks for getting the conversation started.

​

I went from Nagra plp/vpa seperates to Allnic T2000 ( The first version ) Much preferred the Allnic, I now use the T2000 25 th with KT 170, this is phenomenal IMHO. in my set up.