THE HIFI FIVE ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION STREAMING LIVE ON YOUTUBE PREMIERING IN OCTOBER!

[Kingrex]

I read the article in post 73. Honestly, I have lost faith in most science. For the most part I see scientists as tools, used by business and government to give a false sense of comfort and validation to lies.
I know a scientist in the pharma industry. He explained to me how they are directed by management to manipulate the data, lie to everyone, including themselves.

My take is the author is lying to himself. Mostly out of his inability to figure out how to measure something he hears, so he says it doesn't exist. If he were presented with new data validating a change, he would immediately claim he hears the change and always heard it.
Sorry, never watched the round table.

 

[Kingrex]

I just read this from another forum that has 0 to do with audio.

One thing that has made manosphere discourse immensely frustrating, aside from the outright lies and the inability to interpret data (a dying skill set), is the fact that there are some kernels of truth buried in there.


The inability to interpret data, measure correctly or recognize the small kernel of truth is distorting the whole conclusion is wrapped in the "Dying Skill Set". My perception is very very few people understand how to use data. The lack the recognition what they are looking at, shinney as it may be, is only one data point. Its far from seeing the whole picture. Science is like a microscope. You can be very absolute about everything under the lens, blown up and easy to see. But you are completely blind to all that is outside the field of view.

 

[Elliot G.]

THere are things I wanted to say last night and never did for various reasons. The circular reasoning my some makes me nuts that if you can measure everything that matters however when listening if there is a difference there must be something wrong is just nuts. Either you can measure everything or you can't. The scientist stuff to tell me what? . Audio is part science and part Art. I discussed this morning with Oliver who is a trained engineer with an extensive background and degrees on this subject and he said that measurements are important for a variety of reasons. The reasons include eliminating errors, having a technical baseline, quality control etc. however listening is also an important part as many things like specific parts measure the same or worse yet can sound better, You want to measure I have no issues with this at all. We all can see spec sheets and for the most part they are almost all the same in things like frequency response and distortion yet we all LISTEN and find there are dramatically different results so why is this not measurable?
I respect that people have different opinions and I am open minded to listen to them but that is where it ends for me. I KNOW I CAN LISTEN and hear different things and so can many others. The measurement only stuff is for me insulting and just wrong.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

THere are things I wanted to say last night and never did for various reasons. The circular reasoning my some makes me nuts that if you can measure everything that matters however when listening if there is a difference there must be something wrong is just nuts. Either you can measure everything or you can't. The scientist stuff to tell me what? . Audio is part science and part Art. I discussed this morning with Oliver who is a trained engineer with an extensive background and degrees on this subject and he said that measurements are important for a variety of reasons. The reasons include eliminating errors, having a technical baseline, quality control etc. however listening is also an important part as many things like specific parts measure the same or worse yet can sound better, You want to measure I have no issues with this at all. We all can see spec sheets and for the most part they are almost all the same in things like frequency response and distortion yet we all LISTEN and find there are dramatically different results so why is this not measurable?
I respect that people have different opinions and I am open minded to listen to them but that is where it ends for me. I KNOW I CAN LISTEN and hear different things and so can many others. The measurement only stuff is for me insulting and just wrong.

relating usefulness of measurements and singular belief in measurements back to the A.I. discussion, or even multi-channel.......all of these tools can serve a purpose. they have their place in the process of hardware development, or system building even maybe. but there are limits at this particular point in time to just how far we can go in our decisions with these tools alone. and to suggest that any of this stuff can build a better system by itself today is wrong.

we can't predict the future. there might be a time soon where A.I.......or measurements.......might get us all the way there. or that multi-channel can bring us closer to the music than our analog golden era media can. but right now, no, those things have some work to do for us to give them more sway over our music reproduction pleasure. maybe multi-channel has arrived in some ways, but the music only content or common listening circumstances is not relevant yet. so it's still a future thing.

to me the proof is when i hear a system built 100% with these tools that surpasses the best systems created the traditional way, then that will be a big step for me. but the drive to actually put the effort into that system building part of the hobby seems to evade those techie experts. they live in their theories, at their keyboards, not in their serious effort rooms listening. and that is the biggest single thing. the passion to listen.

 

[Elliot G.]

Sadly a lot of the information that is being disseminated by "experts" on the internet is just not factual in any manner , shape or form. We live in the time of the rumor, innuendo and theory. This has permeated our lives in all ways. Someone makes up something and says it and others take it and run with it as if it is fact.
What a consumer thinks is fine however it is not "the truth " or reality. It is just a one man's opinion. Measurements are important , no arguement , however they for now only play a part and do not tell the whole story. Its weird to me that people who do not have the technical background want to talk for those who do and just make shit up. I've been in audio a long time and head these stories forever. experience tells me different.
The Industry has moved away from facts just like the world has in order to sell product. Truth
Technical advance equals a sonic advance- this is how stuff is marketed by many- yet this is a huge lie. it could be and it could not be or it could mean nothing but its easier to sell it because it has the new thingamabob and that thingamabob is expensive.

We have many unexplained things in audio and many more that are always ignored. The internet has accelerated and amplified this and here we are.
Educate yourself. Learn to listen, not just hear. Find someone to mentor you if you do not know and then trust what you learn.
System is the only thing without it we dont listen to anything, judging parts is how you get screwed

 

[microstrip]

(...) The measurement only stuff is for me insulting and just wrong.

In fact, in some sense, if you are just measuring and not listening, you are not making proper measurements. A measurement must correlate with the entity being measured. Most of the discussion on measurements is due to poor interpretation of what is a measurement.

I went through the debate. Elliot you were the easy winner of my votes with two sentences - "listening is a learned skill" and "I want to make science and art" - a clear definition of two key points of the high-end. Any of them would deserve a full debate.

BTW, you had an easy job - unfortunately the science was poorly represented in this discussion, sticking the usual low grade arguments and blind test challenges. Dennis Burger made an interesting approach to the danger of emotion when evaluating gear, bit was not able to pursuit it.

 

[Elliot G.]

In fact, in some sense, if you are just measuring and not listening, you are not making proper measurements. A measurement must correlate with the entity being measured. Most of the discussion on measurements is due to poor interpretation of what is a measurement.

I went through the debate. Elliot you were the easy winner of my votes with two sentences - "listening is a learned skill" and "I want to make science and art" - a clear definition of two key points of the high-end. Any of them would deserve a full debate.

BTW, you had an easy job - unfortunately the science was poorly represented in this discussion, sticking the usual low grade arguments and blind test challenges. Dennis Burger made an interesting approach to the danger of emotion when evaluating gear, bit was not able to pursuit it.

he also changed his point in multiple places. If you can measure the difference say in a 400 dollar power cable, yet you listen and they sound different , than one must be broken, so why cant you measure that ?
Measurements are important but only a part of the story. resistors of identical values can and do sound different yet measure the same, same with capacitors, same with wires, etc. This is old school , flat earth thinking and it gets amplified with innuendo and old wives tales.
Personally I am tired of these worthless discussions. What I wanted to address and we never got their was his theory on group think and Kayfabe which I think has some legs

 

[andromedaaudio]

Plus one has to account for magnetic changes in the earths magnetic field.

A power cord or interlink will sound different in asia or the USA and then you have to take into account power cords that only sound good in the nothern hemisphere.
Or during hot weather with thunder storms

Audiophilia is a very difficult hobby .

If a system sounds different in the winter or during the summer then you have a revealing system

 

[2fastdriving]

I couldn't care less about measurements. Tubes will never measure as well as solid state, yet I am pretty sure I can never own a solid state amp or preamp again. It doesn't speak to me. It's a personal preference and opinion, but hey, that's what this is all about. It comes down to how each individual can be drawn into the music and no amount of measurements will budge my opinion.

Also, when it comes to power cords, let's not forget that, shunyata for example, is not just a wire. There are noise reduction and current storage components in there. You CAN measure that but the cable deniers never seem to.

 

[microstrip]

I couldn't care less about measurements. Tubes will never measure as well as solid state, yet I am pretty sure I can never own a solid state amp or preamp again.

Curiously I feel the same for you for different reasons - I am not interested in spending the very high price of solid state gear I could happily own. But I care a lot about measurements - I appreciate understanding why my gear sounds like it sounds. Surely measurements are not enough to rank equipment, but they can tell us a lot.

It doesn't speak to me. It's a personal preference and opinion, but hey, that's what this is all about. It comes down to how each individual can be drawn into the music and no amount of measurements will budge my opinion.

How do you know you can't be drawn in the music by gear you never listened properly?

Also, when it comes to power cords, let's not forget that, shunyata for example, is not just a wire. There are noise reduction and current storage components in there. You CAN measure that but the cable deniers never seem to.

Sorry, their power cables are just wire with a particular geometry with noise filters. Cable deniers simply do not accept that cables can influence the performance of a system the way Shunyata say - and no audio measurement can show it.

 

[2fastdriving]

How do you know you can't be drawn in the music by gear you never listened properly?

Well now, how do you presume to know what I have listened to "properly"? Get outta here with that bullshit.

 

[microstrip]

Well now, how do you presume to know what I have listened to "properly"? Get outta here with that bullshit.

Oh, great to know about someone who listened to every existing solid stage gear in adequate conditions. No need to be rude, we are just posting about audio gear. Bye.

 

[Król_Artur]

Hi, thanks for the latest episode. I wanted to briefly weigh in on the discussion about sound in the US versus the rest of the world.
Firstly, in Europe, the electrical systems in homes are more stable and better. Secondly, when it comes to sound, I think, of course, you can't generalize, but the US has a heavier bass sound, Europe prefers a faster bass, a lighter sound, and Asia, I think, has the most delicate and slightly brighter sound. I always compare this sound to when I lived in the Caribbean, where there were a lot of Americans and the apartments had a style with heavy, large leather armchairs and sofas and heavy wooden furniture. In Europe, we prefer a lighter style. This is my brief summary, and I hope I am understood correctly. This is not a flaw, and of course, one cannot generalize that everyone is like this.

 

[morricab]

Hi, thanks for the latest episode. I wanted to briefly weigh in on the discussion about sound in the US versus the rest of the world.
Firstly, in Europe, the electrical systems in homes are more stable and better. Secondly, when it comes to sound, I think, of course, you can't generalize, but the US has a heavier bass sound, Europe prefers a faster bass, a lighter sound, and Asia, I think, has the most delicate and slightly brighter sound. I always compare this sound to when I lived in the Caribbean, where there were a lot of Americans and the apartments had a style with heavy, large leather armchairs and sofas and heavy wooden furniture. In Europe, we prefer a lighter style. This is my brief summary, and I hope I am understood correctly. This is not a flaw, and of course, one cannot generalize that everyone is like this.

"Secondly, when it comes to sound, I think, you can't generalize..." then proceeds to generalize...

 

[morricab]

Curiously I feel the same for you for different reasons - I am not interested in spending the very high price of solid state gear I could happily own. But I care a lot about measurements - I appreciate understanding why my gear sounds like it sounds. Surely measurements are not enough to rank equipment, but they can tell us a lot.



How do you know you can't be drawn in the music by gear you never listened properly?



Sorry, their power cables are just wire with a particular geometry with noise filters. Cable deniers simply do not accept that cables can influence the performance of a system the way Shunyata say - and no audio measurement can show it.

Those measurements tell you why your gear sounds like it sounds? Sure they do.... Unless you have a good psychoacoustic model in which to plug said data into it won't tell you much of anything and often be more misleading than informative. If the measurements are not enough to rank equipment as to sound quality, then what exactly is the "a lot" that they are telling you??

 

[bonzo75]

but the US has a heavier bass sound, Europe prefers a faster bass, a lighter sound, and Asia, I think, has the most delicate and slightly brighter sound.

As a south Asian who studied in the US and lives in Europe (or just outside of EU), sound I like must be the most balanced.

 

[morricab]

Sorry, Dennis is clueless and I will never read a review from this guy. Elliot is absolutely right that there is distinct differences in people's ability to listen and it has almost nothing (obviously a deaf person will be unable to hear or listen) to how well you objectively hear. It is about training and critical listening skills, skills that most audiophiles don't really have, although they think they do. Jay might be a good listener but he is completely unable to articulate himself...always has been his problem. DK might be able to make a good sounding system but it seems more like luck for him because he is also not really getting it from what he says.

I would recommend replacing everyone on here but Elliot (no need to have two subjectivist only guys) and get on at least some technically competent people even if they are anti-hifi. There are plenty of us out there who are both technically and subjectively competent (Elliot is right about it being a learned skill, like wine tasting. Interestingly, one of my friend's whose listening ability I trust is also a world class wine taster.) that could generate a conversation that doesn't just butt heads (well it might but at least there would be more meat on the bone).

 

[Król_Artur]

As a south Asian who studied in the US and lives in Europe (or just outside of EU), sound I like must be the most balanced.

As someone born in Europe, who has lived in eight countries and worked in Asia, I believe that this is what we are striving for.

 

[Elliot G.]

without going to far down the rabbit hole our Industry and hobby has fallen in to the emotional response trap just like politics and almost everything else these days.
One persons feelings is not reality for all. One persons conspiracy theory is just that. The country of Switzerland didn't have a meeting to define Swiss sound!. Everyone of 430 million people in the USA didn't vote for big bass. Do different companies and designers make stuff that sounds different? Yes of course. Do they do this my nationality? LOL that's a load of crap'. I am sorry but every product made in Germany does not have a similar sound to every other European product. That is just insulting and not true at all. Just go to Munich or Vienna and listen, NOT Hear!
We stopped asking the real questions when the hobbyists overran the conversation. When everyone's emotional opinion became the truth. When experience, facts and research became un important because your feelings mattered more.
When people platform some guy with big opinions( Jay's video) and wants to blame everyone but himself for his mistakes and that every one else is a liar this is what we get.
As far as the show its fun to have different opinions and have a discussion. Dennis and I have nothing in common as far as audio. I did find parts of his article interesting but we never discussed them as we got sidetracked by hearing tests and flat earth theory

 

[Król_Artur]

without going to far down the rabbit hole our Industry and hobby has fallen in to the emotional response trap just like politics and almost everything else these days.
One persons feelings is not reality for all. One persons conspiracy theory is just that. The country of Switzerland didn't have a meeting to define Swiss sound!. Everyone of 430 million people in the USA didn't vote for big bass. Do different companies and designers make stuff that sounds different? Yes of course. Do they do this my nationality? LOL that's a load of crap'. I am sorry but every product made in Germany does not have a similar sound to every other European product. That is just insulting and not true at all. Just go to Munich or Vienna and listen, NOT Hear!
We stopped asking the real questions when the hobbyists overran the conversation. When everyone's emotional opinion became the truth. When experience, facts and research became un important because your feelings mattered more.
When people platform some guy with big opinions( Jay's video) and wants to blame everyone but himself for his mistakes and that every one else is a liar this is what we get.
As far as the show its fun to have different opinions and have a discussion. Dennis and I have nothing in common as far as audio. I did find parts of his article interesting but we never discussed them as we got sidetracked by hearing tests and flat earth theory

In my opinion, it is your statement that is emotional and political, and talking about 430 million Americans or the Swiss nation is already a stretch for the group of enthusiasts that we form.