The Harmonizer

[Mike Lavigne]

My measuring tools don't go below 20Hz but I've got a lot of 20 in in-room response. Manufacturer claims my speakers can go flat to 16Hz boosted. At 8Hz though I'd be worried about making "softer" things in the room like gypsum or drywall resonate. I've already had to re-secure lighting fixtures that began to rattle and I don't listen very loud very often.

Color me skeptical. What amplitude of subsonics is this thing putting out anyway? Biologically I believe we are wired to filter these frequencies out unlike Elephants that use them for communication.

to be clear; i'm not claiming to have heard in-room 7hz or 3hz. i only mentioned the specs of my speakers relative to this question....

Perhaps. Can you measure Extreme Low Frequency? Below 8 hz? Its below the threshhold of hearing... But could you record it?

......and i've not measured in-room. i make the point that speakers can do these frequencies.

what i will say is that my speakers are able to do whatever is on the recording without stress. there are digital recordings where you do get lots of information that is apparently under 20hz. and to do those flat without distortion you need your -3db point to be around 10hz somewhere. one recording that comes to mind i'll mention is Harry Connick Jr.'s CD 'She', track 7, 'Joe Slam and the Spaceship'. i've heard this on a few systems and the MM7's do it on a whole different level than any other. you feel it in your gut. if i turn it up i can sense my body is getting a bit disturbed. but the room is not rattling apart like other attempts at this track i have heard. it's the distortion that gets a room vibrating, not linear musical information.

there are plenty of other recordings where i'm getting very strong foot stomps and 'earth movements' thru the speakers which sound real like they are in my room on a level i've never heard. especially on 1/4" and 1/2" 15ips master tapes. this gets very spooky and it can truely make it real sounding. i fell this stuff through the floor (6" of concrete) and furniture as well as some i hear. a few times i thought i had someone outside banging. i have some pretty 'raw' master tapes which are 'forces of nature'.

pretty crazy stuff on some of these recordings.

 

[JackD201]

Wasn't referring to you Mike, I actually missed your post. I'm referring to this Harmonizer thing and what it claims to do with subsonic frequencies.

I disagree about only distorted energy rattling a room and undistorted energy not doing the same thing. Energy is energy. You hit a specific resonant frequency hard enough and it will rattle. Same thing with a champagne glass it's the pure tone that will break it. Tesla caused what people thought was an actual earthquake.

 

[RBFC]

You can't hear what you call "light" [visible light] because it it electromagnetic transverse wave. By that description, you should be able to hear very low frequency radio waves [pretty far below AM radio], but you cannot hear those either because the ear detects sound which is a mechanical longitudinal wave.

I should have been more specific. I was talking above about frequencies of light (10 to 9th power Hz)), not low-frequency RF, but over simplified things. In the end, frequency doesn't matter because of the proven physics involved. Since the eardrum depends upon displacement to perceive sound, only longitudinal waves need apply. Here's a cool graphic that shows how transverse waves differ:

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/waves/wavemotion.html

Since we're an audio forum, there's no pertinence to discussion about "hearing" transverse waves, since that's not how sound is delivered. But thanks, Gary, for posting more clarification!

Lee

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Last I checked, light has both wavelength and frequency. We can't "hear" light because its frequency lies extremely far above the range of hearing:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/spectrum.html

Since humans hear sound as vibrations with defined wavelength and frequency, it stands to reason that we can hear or feel it if it is within the envelope of our senses. We're talking about 7.83 Hz, not something in the billions of Hz! I'd suggest researching your facts before making statements.

I don't know if the devices in question have any effect or not. The basic physics of hearing and sensation, however, are not so unclear.

Lee

You can't hear electromagnetic radiation regardless of the frequency unless you use a radio. You can see some frequencies.

 

[RBFC]

You can't hear electromagnetic radiation regardless of the frequency unless you use a radio. You can see some frequencies.

Please see my clarification and additions in the post above. I goofed in the first post by stating things too simplistically, trying to draw a quick parallel. My mistake.


Lee

 

[Whatmore]

Please see my clarification and additions in the post above. I goofed in the first post by stating things too simplistically, trying to draw a quick parallel. My mistake.


Lee

So do you withdraw the suggestion that I research my facts or was that just general advice that everyone should follow

 

[RBFC]

So do you withdraw the suggestion that I research my facts or was that just general advice that everyone should follow

I admitted that I posted my answer in haste and corrected the shortcomings. Would you like to do the same?

Lee

 

[GaryProtein]

RBFC, that's a great graphic because it shows the wave-particle duality of the transverse EM wave.

 

[treitz3]

to be clear; i'm not claiming to have heard in-room 7hz or 3hz. i only mentioned the specs of my speakers relative to this question....

If you will, Mike...please allow me to describe a 5-7 Hz signal at a decent to extreme volume. It's uneasy. It will make you feel queasy and disoriented. You don't hear it, you feel it. Rarely, if ever, will this kind of frequency be in any kind of stereo recording. At least those I have heard to date.

Tom

 

[RBFC]

There are, however, many movie soundtracks with sub-10Hz information. War of the Worlds is one famous one, with the lightning strikes & pod emergence through the street producing high-SPL at sub-10Hz. Fans of ULF are adamant that the low frequency information adds greatly to the movie experience.

Lee

 

[cjfrbw]

A couple of years ago at an AVS members house locally, he did a Thigpen rotary woofer demo. The thing doesn't even start to work until 16 Hz and lower, it is a sub-sub woofer and is capable of producing high output levels. His room was in a chamber he custom built into the earth under his driveway, and the Thigpen would make the concrete heave. When he had it initially vented to the outdoors, his distant neighbors thought it was seismic activity.

It did add a psycho-acoustic effect that increased the sense of liveness and space, just as a regular subwoofer does, but moreso. Whether it is worth the cost of installation except as a big boom box, would be to individual taste.

Very high energies below 12 Hz are supposed to make your vas deferens flap, scramble your sperm, liquefy your testicles and cause a variety of annoying vagal side effects including nausea. I did not experience any of those, and thought it was really cool.

At low levels it was a very effective presence device, even if you could not "hear" it you definitely could tell when it was switched on and off.

 

[NorthStar]

A couple of years ago at an AVS members house locally, he did a Thigpen rotary woofer demo. The thing doesn't even start to work until 16 Hz and lower, it is a sub-sub woofer and is capable of producing high output levels. His room was in a chamber he custom built into the earth under his driveway, and the Thigpen would make the concrete heave. When he had it initially vented to the outdoors, his distant neighbors thought it was seismic activity.

It did add a psycho-acoustic effect that increased the sense of liveness and space, just as a regular subwoofer does, but moreso. Whether it is worth the cost of installation except as a big boom box, would be to individual taste.

Very high energies below 12 Hz are supposed to make your vas deferens flap, scramble your sperm, liquefy your testicles and cause a variety of annoying vagal side effects including nausea. I did not experience any of those, and thought it was really cool.

At low levels it was a very effective presence device, even if you could not "hear" it you definitely could tell when it was switched on and off.

---- For me it does, it adds "true realism". :b

 

[HK Panda]

I think I recall U-571 having some pretty low stuff, when the boat was being bombarded with depth charges.

There are, however, many movie soundtracks with sub-10Hz information. War of the Worlds is one famous one, with the lightning strikes & pod emergence through the street producing high-SPL at sub-10Hz. Fans of ULF are adamant that the low frequency information adds greatly to the movie experience.

Lee

 

[NorthStar]

-- There are some sites (out of my head I just can't recall) in which they have graphs of low frequencies information in some particular scenes of some movies (with their measured content in low hertz). ...Like from DVDs and Blu-rays.

...And other sites with similar characteristics, but this time on music recordings, like from CDs, and the like.

* If I'm not wrong I believe that in some movies the very low bass content is somewhere in the range of 20 Hz, but I could be less than right, and perhaps some of them have content even lower. And I don't know which ones exactly.
But I do know from my own experience which ones do have a 'solid impact' though. ...But couldn't really tell if it is below 20 Hertz. ...I don't think so.

** In music, I believe that you have some very low bass content (subsonic energy; infrasonics) in the 3 to 6 Hertz region.

 

[HK Panda]

Here you go. http://www.rotarywoofer.com/moviecontent.html

My god, this thing is a beast. TRW-17 "The Worlds first True Subwoofer"

Specifications: Amplifier Requirement: 150 watts @ 8 ohms Impedance: 8 ohms 0Hz - 40Hz Frequency Response: 1Hz – 30Hz +/- 4dB Suggested Crossover: 20Hz @ 18dB/octave Sensitivity 94dB 1 watt 1 meter @10Hz Maximum Acoustic Output: >115dB between 1 and 20Hz. Distortion: Typically 3% or less between 1 and 20Hz @90dB Warranty – 3 years parts and labor Patent Pending

Want to hear what 5Hz sounds like? A new woofer technology unlike any other and a new product category for home audio. This is the first home audio woofer delivering true response to DC. The Thigpen Rotary Woofer is the worlds first true infrasonic home audio or home theater woofer. Conventional subwoofers roll off rapidly below 20Hz. With no cone the rotary woofer achieves high efficiency at very low frequencies. Most subwoofers have a difficult time producing acoustic output below 20Hz at audible levels. They generally require large amounts of equalization, distortion rises rapidly, and even the most expensive available cannot produce significant output below 10Hz. Subwoofer electronics usually contain a cutoff filter which sharply rolls off content to the subwoofer below 20Hz to protect the speaker. On the other hand, the rotary woofer has enough acoustic output to move an open door back and forth .5” between 1 and 5Hz! It has enough output to find resonance frequencies of walls and ceilings in a room. It requires no equalization to achieve flat response to below 1Hz. Microphones have low frequency capability that far exceeds the low frequency output of current subwoofers. In many cases infrasonic information is in a recording, it is not being reproduced by the sound system.
A missing link in sound reproduction. Experience special effects like never before. If you want to hear and feel the 11hz hertz fundamental frequency from a helicopter rotor, the low frequency rumble of wind, the space of a concert hall or infrasonic information contained in an explosion, this is the only woofer technology available. Over the years the generally accepted low frequency limit of hearing has been 20Hz, some suggesting 16Hz. However nothing existed to produce significant enough output to change this belief. This development will spawn new special effects and we will begin to understand the true low frequency limit of human hearing. The TRW-17 rotary woofer is now being used in theme park attractions, concert venues, professional audio applications and research projects.

-- There are some sites (out of my head I just can't recall) in which they have graphs of low frequencies information in some particular scenes of some movies (with their measured content in low hertz). ...Like from DVDs and Blu-rays.

...And other sites with similar characteristics, but this time on music recordings, like from CDs, and the like.

* If I'm not wrong I believe that in some movies the very low bass content is somewhere in the range of 20 Hz, but I could be less than right, and perhaps some of them have content even lower. And I don't know which ones exactly.
But I do know from my own experience which ones do have a 'solid impact' though. ...But couldn't really tell if it is below 20 Hertz. ...I don't think so.

** In music, I believe that you have some very low bass content (subsonic energy; infrasonics) in the 3 to 6 Hertz region.

 

[RBFC]

in an earlier post, I referenced the 7.83 Hz Schumann resonance (which had already been mentioned in one of the linked descriptions of the Harmonizer). I want to clarify that I was hoping to guide the conversation toward a description of the effects of Ultra-Low Frequencies, thus the 7.83 Hz. Associating wave and particle physics by providing insufficient clarity, I claim responsibility for the thread drift into wave properties instead of on audibility of certain sounds and their effect upon playback realism. On occasion, one can forget the scrutiny and mass intellect at work in our membership. For any lack of clarity and thoroughness, I apologize.

Now, will someone please let us know when they actually test out a Harmonizer and post their impressions?

Lee

 

[NorthStar]

---- LFE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effects

Movies: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts

 

[RBFC]

AVS has a thread with MANY plots of bass content in movies. It's in the Subwoofer forum. The thread has since died, due to the principles insistence that movies without ULF content are virtually unwatchable. Many posters loved the bass content of The Avengers, but the principles flatly stated that they would not patronize the studio because there was no content below 30Hz (IIRC). The resultant war caused the original graph suppliers to leave the thread.

Lee

Edited to add: I see Bob posted the link above while I was writing.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Again, if I'm not mistaking, I believe that for music, in some recordings, you have lower bass content than in movies where they usually discard stuff below 20 Hz (and even 30 Hz).

Anyway, who here, listen to music (CDs, SACDs, DVD-Audios) with 3 to 6 Hz content?
...I do (Telarc recordings), but I don't feel a single thing. :b

And for movies (on DVDs and Blu-rays), the LFE channel is mostly limited by the Hollywood studios and all, in the vicinity of 20 to 30 Hz. And bass impact is best 'felt' when concentrated around 30 to 60 Hz (40 Hz).
The studios probably can if they want to, include LFE content in the 5 Hz to 20 Hz zone, but only very few people would be able to benefit from the "feel".
And others would have to exchange their exploding gear and speakers under "bass management warranty".

Makes sense? ...Look at those Telarc CDs which I previously mentioned, with Digital Sound Effects at high levels with infrasonic frequencies to 5 Hz; there is a good solid reason on why they put a << Caution >> label on them CDs!
==> Please establish safe playback levels before playing certain tracks. Excessive playback levels could result in damage to "your" equipment.

 

[HK Panda]

I will do that. Just not sure of the timetable.

in an earlier post, I referenced the 7.83 Hz Schumann resonance (which had already been mentioned in one of the linked descriptions of the Harmonizer). I want to clarify that I was hoping to guide the conversation toward a description of the effects of Ultra-Low Frequencies, thus the 7.83 Hz. Associating wave and particle physics by providing insufficient clarity, I claim responsibility for the thread drift into wave properties instead of on audibility of certain sounds and their effect upon playback realism. On occasion, one can forget the scrutiny and mass intellect at work in our membership. For any lack of clarity and thoroughness, I apologize.

Now, will someone please let us know when they actually test out a Harmonizer and post their impressions?

Lee