The Eight Things You Need to Know From CES 2013

[Orb]

Anyone who spends $12K on a pair of speakers and and would consider them "entry level" high-end is sadly out of touch with reality. The S1 may be the entry level product in the Magico line, but that doesn't make it an entry level high-end product as I tried to explain yesterday.

Or can comfortably spend over $70k mep.
Funny you were happy last year with my recommending Audiolab digital product to you, so I do not think I am necessarily out of touch with reality.

Mep, do you know which engineering tool was used to develop the Magico and Crystal Cable speakers and what is required to manufacturer those $12k speakers (Crystal Mini same price here in Europe as S1) ?
I just raise this because high end should be about exceptional approach; whether engineering development as a whole or part or engineering build and manufacturing processes.
If it is just about the sound and allowing limitations in design-build-components, well entry high end might as well be the budget MF Dac at a few hundred dollars

So I guess we all then should agree High End can actually be cheap and anyone can buy into high end.
So why does everyone moan then, or complain about high end dealers not interested (obviously this must include those then selling budget MF, Denon, budget Marantz,etc) because I know a fair few selling such products who engage well

Seems "High end" should be just seen as a moving target to fit into ones arguments; whether good or bad IMO
Cheered up now thanks, logically then high end is safe while we still have well priced products such as from Marantz, Denon, Musical Fidelity, and equivalent peers.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Anyone who spends $12K on a pair of speakers and and would consider them "entry level" high-end is sadly out of touch with reality. The S1 may be the entry level product in the Magico line, but that doesn't make it an entry level high-end product as I tried to explain yesterday.

Exactly right. So let's imagine for a moment that they, perhaps when paired with a couple of JLs, is all anyone would ever, ever need in speakers. I could easily see that setup besting some over-$50k speakers. Then it isn't entry level at all, but the end of the road -- an aspirational system.

Calling it entry level is just wrong-headed.

 

[Orb]

So Jeff if that is something to aspire/end of the road.
Does that means you are going to do an article about Magico S5 and Q3 being overpriced or not needed or use them as an example of what is wrong with high end in that products are over engineered and with excessive build raising costs?
Not being flippant but logically you are saying Magico is making products that are not needed now, even in their middle range or over engineered and priced.
This could also be applied to Ayre KX models that have a much higher cost due to the above and fall into the same issue.
Is the issue then over engineered over built products?
Can apply that to nearly all the products-established manufacturers deemed high end btw, including the Ayre integrated for $9k that you like a lot (and tbh I think I would as well).
Cheers
Orb

 

[mep]

Or can comfortably spend over $70k mep.
Funny you were happy last year with my recommending Audiolab digital product to you early last year, so I do not think I am out of touch with reality.

You must have me mixed up with someone else. I have never been interested in an Audiolab product and I have never owned one.

Do you know which engineering tool was used to develop the Magico and Crystal Cable speakers?
I just raise this because high end should be about exceptional approach; whether engineering development as a whole or part or engineering build and manufacturing processes.
If it is just about the sound and allowing limitations in design-build-components, well entry high end might as well be the budget MF Dac at a few hundred dollars

No, I don't know what software and/or hardware was used to develop Magico and Crystal Cable speakers, but I appreciate what you are saying with regards to using rigorous engineering methodology to develop truly great products.

So I guess we all then should agree High End is actually cheap and anyone can buy into high end.
Wow why does everyone moan then, or high end dealers not interested (obviously this must include those selling budget MF, Denon, budget Marantz,etc) because I know a fair few selling such products who engage well

Orb-It all depends on how you define "high-end." You seem to define high-end by companies that build products at the upper stratosphere of pricing and are backed by what meets your definition of solid engineering. Just because something is snooty and expensive doesn't bestow greatness upon its sound. Like I said yesterday, let's define what high-end sound is and what gear therefore meets the criteria. I would argue that my Mytek Stereo 192 DAC produces high-end sound because my ears tell me so. It's not a mid-fi product because the faceplate doesn't weigh 20 lbs and it lacks $2000 Teflon capacitors the size of beer cans that take half of your life to break in before they sound reasonable.

Seems "High end" should be just seen as a moving target to fit into ones arguments; whether good or bad IMO
Cheered up now thanks Mep, high end is safe then while we still have well priced products such as from Marantz, Denon, MF, and equivalent peers.
Cheers
Orb

I know you are trying to take cheap potshots with your last statement concerning Marantz, Denon, and "equivalent peers," but that is a common behavior for high-end snobs. Frankly, I don't even know why you brought those brands up since no one has postulated that mid-fi offerings from these companies should be considered as high-end.

 

[Orb]

hehe nah Mep the last point was not intended as a cheap shot, it is done lightly but thinking it through has logic to what has been going on in this thread and the other one.

A lot complain about high end being in woes; whether it is down to dealers, how cost is out of control, how dealers are not interested and manufacturers have wrong approach.
But here the debate has reached the point where I am having to concede "entry high end" is actually cheap, it must include Marantz and middle priced Musical Fidelity, and in turn Denon amongst others.
Therefore when one complains about high end as in the other thread or articles, it must be acknowledged that the accessible end of high end is actually thriving and those manufacturers and dealers do engage.

What posters seem to have a problem with are the over engineered and built products, but then one does not have to buy that as the entry high end is thriving in terms of manufacturers.
The irony is as a manufacturer pointed out this week in a thread only a very few manufacturers do well in that more accessible price range (KEF-Musical Fidelity-Marantz-etc), many others are surviving from interest in their higher engineered-built product even if the cost to performance ratio is a curve.
Hope that helps to clarify, just could not help being cheeky earlier, although my question to Jeff is a serious one from a debate logic flow where the conclusion ends.
Regarding Audiolab, yeah I appreciate you were not going to investigate further but you mentioned my post as being thoughtful.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5849-DAC-recommendations&p=95371&viewfull=1#post95371

edit:
Also one can tell I am not being snobby about those manufacturers such as Marantz, look how often I mention Ken Ishiwata in the past and respect I have for him (his work is some of the best at Marantz), or the amazing listening room he has that is exceptional (also from an engineering perspective and cost roughly $150k).
Cheers
Orb

 

[A.wayne]

Or can comfortably spend over $70k mep.
Funny you were happy last year with my recommending Audiolab digital product to you, so I do not think I am necessarily out of touch with reality.

Mep, do you know which engineering tool was used to develop the Magico and Crystal Cable speakers and what is required to manufacturer those $12k speakers (Crystal Mini same price here in Europe as S1) ?
I just raise this because high end should be about exceptional approach; whether engineering development as a whole or part or engineering build and manufacturing processes.
If it is just about the sound and allowing limitations in design-build-components, well entry high end might as well be the budget MF Dac at a few hundred dollars

So I guess we all then should agree High End can actually be cheap and anyone can buy into high end.
So why does everyone moan then, or complain about high end dealers not interested (obviously this must include those then selling budget MF, Denon, budget Marantz,etc) because I know a fair few selling such products who engage well

Seems "High end" should be just seen as a moving target to fit into ones arguments; whether good or bad IMO
Cheered up now thanks, logically then high end is safe while we still have well priced products such as from Marantz, Denon, Musical Fidelity, and equivalent peers.
Cheers
Orb

Because some feel bad about themselves when they covet goods they cannot afford ...

What we need is a good ole Audio Critic type shootout , the exotic vs the regular guy , is it worth the money , is there a difference , how many high dollar amplifiers' could actually pass there cube test ..

Unfortunately this will never happen not in todays environment of placebo reviewing and limited testing, so unless some MS Billionaire is going to start a not for profit mag and start testing Hi-Fi equipment by purchasing it themselves for testing you can furgit about it ....


Hey at least we have high end shows , nothing beats bad sound from a mega dollar system to warm the entry level soul ....

 

[mep]

OH dear. My store would have a rack of cd players, amps, TTs, processors (like 3D stuff etc), dac, music servers, etc, and say 10 different speakers. And my client would say let me listen to this combination, and I woud have a nice big switching box, and throw some switches and then let them listen, throw some switches and le them listen, then decide on both sound and if they wanted, looks. One hour per session, switching an listening as they please. And gear representative as possible from say so called mid fi to stratosphere. But somehow, I think the high end companies would not allow me to be a dearler of theirs,in that set-up

No, your store would be doomed before the doors opened up for the first time.

 

[Orb]

Out of interest,
was say Marantz-Denon-Yamaha at CES and if so how many went into take a close listen?
How many spent lengthy session with NAD and equivalent peers.

While I notice Cambridge Audio-Hegel had some coverage and mention of award with SoundStageNetwork, what I feel is missing is that most of the detailed dedicated articles for CES covered everything but entry high end as accepted by most here; either was an article below $1k or dedicated articles to such as those over the $5k unless a product is mentioned briefly.
Maybe part of the problem is some products just on static as mentioned by the virtual system 1.
Best detailed mention went to it seems NAD (mentioned twice so maybe deserved a separate article) and NuForce, but not in the same way as the higher priced products.

Maybe there should be more emphasised-detail coverage of Marantz-Denon-NuForce-Musical Fidelity lower range-Yamaha-NAD (appreciate this had 2 separate paragraphs for coverage)-Cambridge Audio-etc that drive sound quality performance for value.
All of those are brand name recognition with most in general (well apart from I would say NuForce and NAD may be questionable for general consumers) and the concensus I agree is that these are then entry high end, and also present a strong understandable narrative to consumers that I agree is (and said so myself) missing from the established high end.
But probably the problem is that CES is just too big and commercial, hopefully though said manufacturers can have more of a spotlight at other shows as they drive what most deem entry high end, which would be the products used to entice new blood to audio world.

Thanks
Orb

 

[mep]

Orb-There are several things at play here. High-end dealers make their money on margins. If you get to sell a product for 2x what you paid for it, are you going to sell cheap products at 2x or expensive products at 2x knowing that there are enough well-heeled customers to purchase your expensive products? Don't you then have a self-interest to get snooty with your customers and explain that their audiophile life will be condemned to audiophile hell if they settle for that cheaper *junk*? Wasn't it Wendall from Magnapan who said his dealers wanted him to double the price of the 3.7 speakers because they knew they could sell it for double the price to their customers and he refused? Get my point?

Let their be no doubt that the top of the audiophile mountain is a rich man's game and it always has been. That doesn't mean that mere mortals can't achieve really great sound at more reasonable prices.

 

[Orb]

OH dear. My store would have a rack of cd players, amps, TTs, processors (like 3D stuff etc), dac, music servers, etc, and say 10 different speakers. And my client would say let me listen to this combination, and I woud have a nice big switching box, and throw some switches and then let them listen, throw some switches and le them listen, then decide on both sound and if they wanted, looks. One hour per session, switching an listening as they please. And gear representative as possible from say so called mid fi to stratosphere. But somehow, I think the high end companies would not allow me to be a dearler of theirs,in that set-up

Easier in the UK than North America probably, but there are dealers that do cover from a say £300 all the way to £100k+ for digital theatre related gear.
Unilet here in the UK is an example of a dealer that has extensive and I mean extensive amount of product from budget Denon-Yamaha-Marantz up to having top Meridian-KEF-Chord Electronics-Reference Musical Fidelity (and their budget gear).
They organise special events to bring in new blood and for existing customers to come in and have a good time, this has included the KEF Concept Blade, show demo a £200k system and also budget systems at the same time in other rooms while offering free hotdogs and drinks.
And they are doing well.
The website does not do them justice and does not show everything they can provide (such as reference Marantz and some other manufacturer products), but it is a good example of a dealer showing you can have a serious amount of products from budget to eye watering, and allow customers to listen to any setup they want to for comparison; in fact they are as enthusiastic about the "mid fi" as they are high end.
http://www.unilet.net/

Ok they do not use a switching box, but I know from experience they will swap the gear around quite happily.
They have found the right narrative and approach for their high end to survive.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Orb-There are several things at play here. High-end dealers make their money on margins. If you get to sell a product for 2x what you paid for it, are you going to sell cheap products at 2x or expensive products at 2x knowing that there are enough well-heeled customers to purchase your expensive products? Don't you then have a self-interest to get snooty with your customers and explain that their audiophile life will be condemned to audiophile hell if they settle for that cheaper *junk*? Wasn't it Wendall from Magnapan who said his dealers wanted him to double the price of the 3.7 speakers because they knew they could sell it for double the price to their customers and he refused? Get my point?

Let their be no doubt that the top of the audiophile mountain is a rich man's game and it always has been. That doesn't mean that mere mortals can't achieve really great sound at more reasonable prices.

And see my example I just posted Mep.
That dealer you mention reminds me of the MAD speaker article where some are trying to name their price for profit, but that does not necessarily reflect the whole or even most of the industry.
Agree such behaviour is detrimental, I also provided an example where some distributors wanted Devialet to change their RRP as the margins were moderately tight for the price and felt they could get more for the build quality and performance it provided, Devialet has maintained rigid control of pricing.
However both yours and my point shows that manufacturers can be responsible even if some dealers cannot
OK MAD as a speaker manufacturer and a few others show some of the bad habits as well doh
Cheers
Orb

 

[mep]

Easier in the UK than North America probably, but there are dealers that do cover from a say £300 all the way to £100k+ for digital theatre related gear.
Unilet here in the UK is an example of a dealer that has extensive and I mean extensive amount of product from budget Denon-Yamaha-Marantz up to having top Meridian-KEF-Chord Electronics-Reference Musical Fidelity (and their budget gear).
They organise special events to bring in new blood and for existing customers to come in and have a good time, this has included the KEF Concept Blade, show demo a £200k system and also budget systems at the same time in other rooms while offering free hotdogs and drinks.
And they are doing well.
The website does not do them justice and does not show everything they can provide (such as reference Marantz and some other manufacturer products), but it is a good example of a dealer showing you can have a serious amount of products from budget to eye watering, and allow customers to listen to any setup they want to for comparison; in fact they are as enthusiastic about the "mid fi" as they are high end.
http://www.unilet.net/

Ok they do not use a switching box, but I know from experience they will swap the gear around quite happily.
They have found the right narrative and approach for their high end to survive.
Cheers
Orb

£100k+ systems and they serve you hotdogs?? I could understand the hotdogs if you were contemplating purchasing some entry level gear from NAD, Marantz, or MF. They should have been like an airline and if you were buying cheap gear, you were served hotdogs. If you were buying expensive gear, you get to eat filet Mignon. And there should be a curtain to separate you so the upper-crust doesn't have to mingle with the unwashed masses. It's bad enough you have to see them as they waddle by to get to their cheap seats.

 

[Orb]

Mep,
I assume you are joking, thankfully no-one has suggested they should bring out bone china cups, scones and champagne for those general open days
Well you can have a burger instead if you want to
But it is a good day and engages all to generate interest in music and audio.
They also done other events such as one with the KEF Concept Blade and Blade, Proac-PMC,or Denon-Yamaha,etc. (not hot dogs/burgers at most of these)
But their approach works very well, and as a store they do better than many high end dealers working from home-visiting here in the UK.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

Well some of the reviewers have "associated equipment" lists and they actually tell how each peice worked with the review sample. That's how I got hooked on Pass Labs and Wilson W/P.

 

[Orb]

Anyway coming back on track, all this debating managed to tug me from my original viewpoint that then became skewed as it was picked apart.
High end in terms of how I see it with regards to engineering design and excellent build can be achieved by some at the $4k to $5k, but with other manufacturers being higher.

It is possible to find "true high end" possibly $4k-$5k upwards IMO, while other entry models for some manufacturers between $15k-$20k.
Some DACs are high end at much lower prices than this tbh [I was talking about the $4k-$5k] and represent incredible value (subjective preference comes into play more than price) and I am the first to accept my DAC is not value for money in comparison to such products from T+A and others.

But I accept and agree with the discussion that high end entry is even lower when considering the best standard models from Marantz (ok their reference models can be over £7k), Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Musical Fidelity, NuForce, Audiolab,etc, when allowing for some compromise in design-build more so than sound when compared to the higher priced products.

But interestingly no audio publication has ever touched this aspect of High End when talking about its woes, where high end is going, and also challenges for bringing in new blood.
Really the focus should be on generally recognised brand names at this entry point, because Denon/Marantz/HK/KEF/B&W/Cambridge Audio and a few others are able to engage with consumers and the most likely to keep high end alive in terms of new blood.
I really do think this side of high end has been missed out on many articles about what is happening now and considerations/challenges for the future.
It could be said the established high end that we know that is at a higher price should be looking to hook into those audio fans that have been brought in by the manufacturers mentioned in previous sentence.
This means some kind of synergy at shows, other events and dealers (such as my point with Unilet).

Cheers
Orb

 

[JackD201]

Our least expensive loudspeaker sells for $750 followed by one that sells for $1,000. Our least expensive amplifier is a tube-solid state hybrid that doubles down from 150w at 8 to 300 at 4 600w at 2 and pushes past 700 at 1 AND has an MM phonostage and sub outs for $2,750. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to assume that we sell more units of these than any other products we have. It's simple market absorption capacity at work. Now, do our clients want to go higher up in the product matrix? Many do, some look elsewhere, some feel no need to do either. As far as I'm concerned, the important thing is that they have a choice and we can provide them with choices albeit not everything they could possibly want.

We treat everybody with the same attention and respect. I know Mep was joking about the unwashed masses. The reason I got into the business was I was looked at from head to toe by a salesman because I'd just come from the gym and was dressed accordingly. Then have his boss who already knew my try to bait and switch me. I was royally pissed. I made it a mission to never let that kind of thing happen to anybody. I suppose unshowered is the same as unwashed! LOL. You can say my biting a chunk of his market share was sa-weeet but getting to play with inventory much, much sa-weeeter! I should send him a thank you card come to think of it!

You never know when the guy who walks in could actually buy the whole store based on how he looks. I've had a guy come in in sandals and cargo shorts plunk down $50 grand at one go.

 

[A.wayne]

Our least expensive loudspeaker sells for $750 followed by one that sells for $1,000. Our least expensive amplifier is a tube-solid state hybrid that doubles down from 150w at 8 to 300 at 4 600w at 2 and pushes past 700 at 1 AND has an MM phonostage and sub outs for $2,750. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to assume that we sell more units of these than any other products we have. It's simple market absorption capacity at work. Now, do our clients want to go higher up in the product matrix? Many do, some look elsewhere, some feel no need to do either. As far as I'm concerned, the important thing is that they have a choice and we can provide them with choices albeit not everything they could possibly want.

We treat everybody with the same attention and respect. I know Mep was joking about the unwashed masses. The reason I got into the business was I was looked at from head to toe by a salesman because I'd just come from the gym and was dressed accordingly. Then have his boss who already knew my try to bait and switch me. I was royally pissed. I made it a mission to never let that kind of thing happen to anybody. I suppose unshowered is the same as unwashed! LOL. You can say my biting a chunk of his market share was sa-weeet but getting to play with inventory much, much sa-weeeter! I should send him a thank you card come to think of it!

You never know when the guy who walks in could actually buy the whole store based on how he looks. I've had a guy come in in sandals and cargo shorts plunk down $50 grand at one go.

Could you name that Hybrid amplifier , sounds interesting at 1ohm ....

 

[JackD201]

LSA Standard, formerly DK Designs. Built in China. Affordable enough to risk modding which is what a lot of folks do and forego the warranty. I modded my personal unit (which was traded in for separates and a bit the worse for wear with nicks and dings) by changing the basic auricaps with Mundorf Mcaps (coupling) and switched from the stock tubes to Siemens CCas. It has a lot of low end grunt but find it to be on the dark side despite the tube change. I may try V-coppers next. I don't want to go crazy and spend too much on it so I doubt this will be seeing any teflons. The parts zaniness is reserved for my custom SET projects built by our tech. Just for fun The Statement model which is more neutral costs 3 times as much. When I popped the hood the only thing the same practically were the toroids,pcb and the tube sockets. The preamp section was a totally different circuit.

I ended up dishing out 3k in parts alone for a Parallel Single ended 300B amp. So I do know that you can get past 1 grand easy before labor and all other business expenses and costs when it comes to small runs or bespoke items. To think many of these parts I got at wholesale prices.

 

[Orb]

Right approach there Jack IMO and I do wonder if more dealers do this than not (maybe a region thing but it is a challenge for you dealers to compete at those prices against online buying and the power of large retailers - I know Unilet has to face that challenge with their selling of Marantz-Yamaha-etc).

So regarding CES.
Who took time to listen at the Marantz,KEF,B&W,Cambridge Audio, and Harman Kardon to see what they are doing that could entice those into audio and listen to the sound quality of their high end if on show?
I could name a few others but these are brand names that are more likely to be known by consumers while also providing interesting products with quality.

Edit:
Another name that should be included is TEAC, amazed I forgot them.

Cheers
Orb

 

[audioguy]

Asserting that entry-level starts at $5K+ is simply absurd.

Amen!

What I find most interesting is that most any list of products (on forums or in the audio magazines) that would make up a "entry level", "mid level" or any other level of "high end" (whatever that is), almost NEVER includes room treatment products. And I don't believe that they are "assumed". There is no shiny silver 1 inch thick face plates and they completely lack any sense WOW factor. Maybe all of the members of this forum consider room treatment as a vital component but when I visited homes with high end systems in another audio life, probably less than 20% gave it any thought -- even with $50,000+ systems.

I've heard $5000 systems in well done rooms that eat the lunch of systems costing 20 times that in horrible and totally untreated rooms.

Just sayin'