The Eight Things You Need to Know From CES 2013

[Shaffer]

But does that mean the more expensive high end (lets ignore the upper and say just entry) is not more costly when taking into account all aspects such as build quality, components used, importantly where built, QA,etc.

None of the above has any relevance to the point made, ie. entry-level.

BTW, have you actually seen Audiolab's build quality? I'm asking, because it's exemplary. It's almost laughable that such a thing can be offered for $1K.

Ayre is probably one of the best priced high end sellers out there, there are substantial differences between their products and Audiolab (not necessarily engineering knowledge but engineering development and critically build and manufacturing processes) - and I am a massive fan of John Westlake btw who has helped Audiolab reinvent themselves with their new products, followed him for quite a many years and chatted with him in the past.

I've owned an Ayre K-1 (w/phono). Bought it in '97 and used it 'till 06. Had a V3, as well. Now my system is powered by the Audiolab and I'm still alive. No immediate desire to take it out. The integrated can be had for less than $1K and it sounds far better than a lot of stuff I've had in the system. Hell, this thing can even dig deep with the SCIVs, albeit with dynamic limitations, a feat not always matched by significantly more impressive-looking amplifiers. I can name names. Asserting that entry-level starts at $5K+ is simply absurd.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

We all know it is subjective. We also know that there are common denominator: For example, no one here will mistake the sound coming of a Bose waveradio for high end. We also know from Harman researches that people are more likely to prefer the more accurate (objectively) components. These out of the way, in order to define where the high end starts in term of price one must listen to a wide variety of gear and compare them to some reference and sometime each other. Else it becomes arbitrary. If amp A at $1000 trumps most $5000 amps then it must become the baseline thus the "entry-level". That is what the notion of entry-level IMO.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Hehe now that is a good question
And why
Cheers
Orb

The juxtaposition between TWBAS and my growing focus on equipment priced more "normally" is an issue that I have been struggling with. I can say with 98% confidence that you won't see another TWBAS event. The components I write about in that column -- that are super expensive -- will be the scant few that I believe to be be worth the substantial asking price.

So yes, it is a problem I am dealing with. I've even considered "The World's Best Audio System For Real People" but then that would leave out those few that are very high priced that I can justify in my mind. A dilemma for sure.

 

[asiufy]

The juxtaposition between TWBAS and my growing focus on equipment priced more "normally" is an issue that I have been struggling with. I can say with 98% confidence that you won't see another TWBAS event. The components I write about in that column -- that are super expensive -- will be the scant few that I believe to be be worth the substantial asking price.

So yes, it is a problem I am dealing with. I've even considered "The World's Best Audio System For Real People" but then that would leave out those few that are very high priced that I can justify in my mind. A dilemma for sure.

Jeff,

Have you considered that, if you're the one determining if the price is "real people" enough, there'll always be someone claiming it's too expensive, and not "real people" enough?
I mean, you're playing a losing game. You can't win. See the magazines. They review expensive stuff, and they get letters from people complaining they can't' afford that. Then they review Paradigm, Pioneer and NAD, and they get mail from folks saying they don't want to read about stuff they can get at Best Buy...
Setting an arbitrary dollar amount and splitting gear between "real people" and "unobtainium" is tough, and I don't envy you for trying...
I just think there's room for everybody, specially on a site like yours. Keep on the ultra expensive stuff, and ADD the more affordable stuff, keeping them in distinct sections/areas of your site/network.


alexandre

 

[Orb]

None of the above has any relevance to the point made, ie. entry-level.

BTW, have you actually seen Audiolab's build quality? I'm asking, because it's exemplary. It's almost laughable that such a thing can be offered for $1K.



I've owned an Ayre K-1 (w/phono). Bought it in '97 and used it 'till 06. Had a V3, as well. Now my system is powered by the Audiolab and I'm still alive. No immediate desire to take it out. The integrated can be had for less than $1K and it sounds far better than a lot of stuff I've had in the system. Hell, this thing can even dig deep with the SCIVs, albeit with dynamic limitations, a feat not always matched by significantly more impressive-looking amplifiers. I can name names. Asserting that entry-level starts at $5K+ is simply absurd.

It has everything to do with entry level IMO.
What is high end without the build and engineering along with sound quality-performance.
BTW as I said I have discussed at length with John Westlake and followed his own posts for many years and the products this helped to make at audiolabs (listened to the MDAC myself at length); I do know quite well the engineering in the Audiolabs
As I mentioned take a look at T+A and compare to the M-DAC (I assume you did click on the link for T+A and looked at the DAC8 and to a lesser extent also the company background), the engineering and build differences are easily noticable, this is coming from an engineer perspective myself.
T+A and Devialet set the standards in high end price combined with engineer design-build, Magico sets the standards in the high end entry speakers with the S1 again with engineer design-build.
Audiolabs is excellent value for the performance, but there are valid reasons for price difference in the high end entry models I mentioned in this thread.

How many products do you know built like the T+A for under $5k?
Meaning substantial aluminium, multiple high end internal components, built not in China (Audiolabs is built over there while T+A is built in Germany), furthermore some of these companies have many engineers to employ.
Do you really think Audiolabs has the same build, internal quality components and over engineering as the T+A and Ayre?

Again I am looking at build quality, engineering from both development (including tools and multiple talented engineers-sometimes scientists-sometimes mathematicians-etc) and production, manufacturing processes, etc

But as I say, everyone has a different view of entry high end, such as yours with Audiolabs; it is perspectives and no-one is right or wrong tbh.
Edit:
Just to add, my respect for John Westlake (best thought of recently as Audiolab product designer-engineer) is very high and is someone I have mentioned here and other forums in the past (do a search on John Westlake can see me recommending Audiolab CD and DAC back in Febuary 2012 on here).
His products show his extensive engineering knowledge and background (with the assistance of another engineer colleague working on aspects of the mathematics), definitely great product line from Audiolab I agree and punch higher than their price I agree.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff,

Have you considered that, if you're the one determining if the price is "real people" enough, there'll always be someone claiming it's too expensive, and not "real people" enough?
I mean, you're playing a losing game. You can't win. See the magazines. They review expensive stuff, and they get letters from people complaining they can't' afford that. Then they review Paradigm, Pioneer and NAD, and they get mail from folks saying they don't want to read about stuff they can get at Best Buy...
Setting an arbitrary dollar amount and splitting gear between "real people" and "unobtainium" is tough, and I don't envy you for trying...
I just think there's room for everybody, specially on a site like yours. Keep on the ultra expensive stuff, and ADD the more affordable stuff, keeping them in distinct sections/areas of your site/network.


alexandre

That's exactly right. I manage all of our review sites -- GoodSound! (affordable), SoundStage! Xperience (lifestyle, HT, sleek hi-fi), SoundStage! Hi-Fi (bread-and-butter high end), and Ultra (craziness) -- and we publish between 9-12 reviews per month and they are all over the map. We have about 30 writers and try to be very inclusive.

My dilemma is really in my own mind and with my personal hi-fi sensibilities, really. All I can really do is follow what I think is right -- I always try to think in terms of real money -- and go from there. So for instance, although you all know that I think the Magico Q7 is the pinnacle, I also know the S1 is the most important product in the company's line. It's also why I have the new Sonus Venere 3.0 arriving any day. That could be one of the speakers to buy in 2013.

 

[A.wayne]

None of the above has any relevance to the point made, ie. entry-level.

BTW, have you actually seen Audiolab's build quality? I'm asking, because it's exemplary. It's almost laughable that such a thing can be offered for $1K.



I've owned an Ayre K-1 (w/phono). Bought it in '97 and used it 'till 06. Had a V3, as well. Now my system is powered by the Audiolab and I'm still alive. No immediate desire to take it out. The integrated can be had for less than $1K and it sounds far better than a lot of stuff I've had in the system. Hell, this thing can even dig deep with the SCIVs, albeit with dynamic limitations, a feat not always matched by significantly more impressive-looking amplifiers. I can name names. Asserting that entry-level starts at $5K+ is simply absurd.

That would make the audioLab hi -end .....

 

[Orb]

The juxtaposition between TWBAS and my growing focus on equipment priced more "normally" is an issue that I have been struggling with. I can say with 98% confidence that you won't see another TWBAS event. The components I write about in that column -- that are super expensive -- will be the scant few that I believe to be be worth the substantial asking price.

So yes, it is a problem I am dealing with. I've even considered "The World's Best Audio System For Real People" but then that would leave out those few that are very high priced that I can justify in my mind. A dilemma for sure.

Yes I can see and why I used the smile as it is a conundrum with how good the more accessible high end has become.
But then instead of replacing TWBAS it should be complimented with a similar narrative and focus of "entry high end", which could be interesting in not just the products but the process and approach-methodology of deciding how to select said system - not going to make everyone happy when looking at the diverse perceptions and part of the challenge I guess.
This is also compounded by high end integrateds, which have come a long way as well IMO.
TWBAS narrative should explain what sets these products apart beyond sound quality; the at any cost statement and sometimes concept products are never about value; sometimes prestige, sometimes a way to survive with better revenue, sometimes about producing a product with no cost constraints and then trickle down where cost does influence design and build processes (the KEF Concept Blade comes to mind that was never built as a statement product but heavily revised to create a trickle down high end Blade speaker).
I must admit I preferred previous TWBAS because they did have a lot of content regarding the methodology and approach, not just the end product and sound, but that is just me.

Anyway look forward to whatever you do and your future articles Jeff as they are always thought provoking.
Edit:
Agree about the S1, in the same way Devialet will influence the high end to some degree (well Wadia has taken notice as you say ).
T+A seems to also have some very interesting products more recently gaining notice that may influence high end as their price is quite amazing IMO.
So maybe TBWAS should have less resource time to other projects, *shrug*.
I agree entry high end (my perception of it anyway but fits in with products like Magico S1, Crystal Cable Mini,Devialet, including those others mentioned before such as LS27 example) is more important than ever and more focus needs to be brought to it.
Interesting how many very established high end manufacturers are making more accessible products (never thought I would see an incredibly well built-measuring new tube preamp from Nagra for around £7k) including new integrateds.

Thanks
Orb

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Yes I can see and why I used the smile as it is a conundrum with how good the more accessible high end has become.
But then instead of replacing TWBAS it should be complimented with a similar narrative and focus of "entry high end", which could be interesting in not just the products but the process and approach-methodology of deciding how to select said system - not going to make everyone happy when looking at the diverse perceptions and part of the challenge I guess.
This is also compounded by high end integrateds, which have come a long way as well IMO.
TWBAS narrative should explain what sets these products apart beyond sound quality; the at any cost statement and sometimes concept products are never about value; sometimes prestige, sometimes a way to survive with better revenue, sometimes about producing a product with no cost constraints and then trickle down where cost does influence design and build processes (the KEF Concept Blade comes to mind that was never built as a statement product but heavily revised to create a trickle down high end Blade speaker).
I must admit I preferred previous TWBAS because they did have a lot of content regarding the methodology and approach, not just the end product and sound, but that is just me.

Anyway look forward to whatever you do and your future articles Jeff as they are always thought provoking.
Edit:
Agree about the S1, in the same way Devialet will influence the high end to some degree (well Wadia has taken notice as you say ).
T+A seems to also have some very interesting products more recently gaining notice that may influence high end as their price is quite amazing IMO.
So maybe TBWAS should have less resource time to other projects, *shrug*.
I agree entry high end (my perception of it anyway but fits in with products like Magico S1, Crystal Cable Mini,Devialet, including those others mentioned before such as LS27 example) is more important than ever and more focus needs to be brought to it.
Interesting how many very established high end manufacturers are making more accessible products (never thought I would see an incredibly well built-measuring new tube preamp from Nagra for around £7k) including new integrateds.

Thanks
Orb

One thing I would alter a bit: the term "entry." If a product is better than many higher priced products (like I suspect the Ayre AX-5 is), then it is a good value, but maybe far beyond "entry level."

 

[c1ferrari]

The juxtaposition between TWBAS and my growing focus on equipment priced more "normally" is an issue that I have been struggling with. I can say with 98% confidence that you won't see another TWBAS event. The components I write about in that column -- that are super expensive -- will be the scant few that I believe to be be worth the substantial asking price.

So yes, it is a problem I am dealing with. I've even considered "The World's Best Audio System For Real People" but then that would leave out those few that are very high priced that I can justify in my mind. A dilemma for sure.

Jeff,

Please do compose such a column. Those few very high price items you deem justifiable can be described in a separate column...or included in TWBAS - FRP with an asterisk

 

[Shaffer]

It has everything to do with entry level IMO.
What is high end without the build and engineering along with sound quality-performance.
BTW as I said I have discussed at length with John Westlake and followed his own posts for many years and the products this helped to make at audiolabs (listened to the MDAC myself at length); I do know quite well the engineering in the Audiolabs
As I mentioned take a look at T+A and compare to the M-DAC (I assume you did click on the link for T+A and looked at the DAC8 and to a lesser extent also the company background), the engineering and build differences are easily noticable, this is coming from an engineer perspective myself.
T+A and Devialet set the standards in high end price combined with engineer design-build, Magico sets the standards in the high end entry speakers with the S1 again with engineer design-build.
Audiolabs is excellent value for the performance, but there are valid reasons for price difference in the high end entry models I mentioned in this thread.

I've only heard and used the 8200P and have absolutely no idea how any of their digital products sound. In all honesty, I'd be far more interested in looking further into the brand if they released a phono stage built/designed to the same sonic standard as the integrated.

How many products do you know built like the T+A for under $5k?
Meaning substantial aluminium, multiple high end internal components, built not in China (Audiolabs is built over there while T+A is built in Germany), furthermore some of these companies have many engineers to employ.

How is that relevant to the concept of sound quality?

Do you really think Audiolabs has the same build, internal quality components and over engineering as the T+A and Ayre?

The Audiolab's external build quality is pretty damn impressive. You may want to actually have a look at one. To answer your question directly and on an aggregate level, absolutely not. Unfortunately, I gauge my opinion by listening to my system.

Again I am looking at build quality, engineering from both development (including tools and multiple talented engineers-sometimes scientists-sometimes mathematicians-etc) and production, manufacturing processes, etc

So, this is all about buying something nice to look at and impressive to discuss?

But as I say, everyone has a different view of entry high end, such as yours with Audiolabs; it is perspectives and no-one is right or wrong tbh.

High-End as a look or High-End as an audio entity?

Just so we're on the same page, in no way am I advocating the 8200P as the pinnacle of performance, budget or otherwise. It's solely an example of what's available.

Edit: I'm not joking when I say to go and have a look at the new Audiolab stuff. Just the external build quality. Yes, it's made in China. The matalwork doesn't seem to care. If statement-level sector wants to maintain this constraint as a means of justifying a high price, it's in for a big shock. I know I was.

 

[A.wayne]

Originally Posted by john curl

People often forget that the designers,
themselves, have to make something,
and the person who sells it, let's say, retail,
has to make something,
and then there are the company costs like the manufacturing building, storage, etc.,
telephone, building alarm service, electricity, etc. etc.
This drives the cost of a lot of audio components up, and/or profits down.
This is where 'promotion' even selling a story, much like Mark Levenson often does, helps to get the extra sales that can make a company a success.
I KNOW that just making the best product I can make and trying to sell it at a reasonable price does not 'cut it' and that is why I never returned to manufacturing products after I closed down Vendetta Research.
I KNOW that making a world class audio component can become outrageously expensive, just because we want it to be as 'perfect' as possible, both sonically and visually.
We fight it every project.
Now many of you might think that all you need to do is a circuit sim to design it, and a little time to build a prototype, well that will get you a 'hoopty' but NOT a race car. '-)

- John Curl

 

[jazdoc]

I think one of the places where the audio press has ill-served the audio community is the focus on individual components and not on system building. Some of the most useful audio press comes from articles that seeks to assemble systems at various price points; explaining the synergies of each system and setting appropriate expectations.

 

[mep]

I think one of the places where the audio press has ill-served the audio community is the focus on individual components and not on system building. Some of the most useful audio press comes from articles that seeks to assemble systems at various price points; explaining the synergies of each system and setting appropriate expectations.

But lots of those articles are just reviewers throwing systems together at a price point without ever hearing that system in the flesh.

 

[jazdoc]

But lots of those articles are just reviewers throwing systems together at a price point without ever hearing that system in the flesh.

Agreed. But wouldn't it be a terrific service the hobby to put together and compare systems at different price points?

 

[Orb]

...Just so we're on the same page, in no way am I advocating the 8200P as the pinnacle of performance, budget or otherwise. It's solely an example of what's available.

Edit: I'm not joking when I say to go and have a look at the new Audiolab stuff. Just the external build quality. Yes, it's made in China. The matalwork doesn't seem to care. If statement-level sector wants to maintain this constraint as a means of justifying a high price, it's in for a big shock. I know I was.

Hiya Shaffer, I think we are in agreement in many ways just semantics, but possibly differ regarding the cost of building in costlier materials.
It is interesting this is something John Westlake touched upon when it came to cost and consideration for not just the design but the build process, he has mentioned in the past the Audiolab latest gear is built to a price point and could use higher grade but would cost more.
The chassis is one part but also a consideration is the internals.
Case in point is John wanted to improve the power supply for some of the 8200 product line, and an external upgrade is meant to be in the offering this year, possibly biased but I am more impressed with the digital components from Audiolab.
As I said, I have a lot of experience with Audiolab since John Westlake became heavily involved (his track record over the years to build components at "budget" levels but with excellent performance is incredible), how many went on about 8200 series on here and recommending back early last year, I was one of them btw
For over engineering take a look at the T+A specification for their DAC8, it goes beyond the externals (which rightly or wrongly is associated as part of high end).
Cheers
Orb

 

[rockitman]

Agreed. But wouldn't it be a terrific service the hobby to put together and compare systems at different price points?

If I were to have a brick and motar store, that is what I would do...have multiple room systems setup at various price points

 

[mep]

Agreed. But wouldn't it be a terrific service the hobby to put together and compare systems at different price points?

Yes, I think it would be a good service-especially if reviewers could put together systems at real-world prices that could take on the high priced spread and stand toe to toe with them.

 

[Orb]

One thing I would alter a bit: the term "entry." If a product is better than many higher priced products (like I suspect the Ayre AX-5 is), then it is a good value, but maybe far beyond "entry level."

Yeah I guess depending where one sits in the high end camp or what that definition high end entry, high end, and high end reference-flagship means to someone.
But then would you deem Magico S1 as entry high end or a bridge to best value of high end or something else?
If as an entry to high end so surely something like the AX-5 or its peers would be a potential match, if going separates how much would a comparable system cost looking at "high end".
Interested what you think (and probably others such as Kal/JA/Alan Sircom/etc as it would be an interesting ongoing set of articles.
Where does the Devialet fit in the thoughts of high end?
I can see how both products challenge the traditional high end manufacturers approach.
Cheers
Orb

 

[mep]

Yeah I guess depending where one sits in the high end camp or what that definition means to someone.
But then would you deem Magico S1 as entry high end or a bridge to best value of high end or something else?
If as an entry to high end so surely something like the AX-5 or its peers would be a potential match, if going separates how much would a comparable system cost looking at "high end".
Interested what you think (and probably others such as Kal/JA/Alan Sircom/etc as it would be an interesting ongoing set of articles.
Where does the Devialet fit in the thoughts of high end?
I can see how both products challenge the traditional high end manufacturers approach.


Cheers
Orb

Anyone who spends $12K on a pair of speakers and and would consider them "entry level" high-end is sadly out of touch with reality. The S1 may be the entry level product in the Magico line, but that doesn't make it an entry level high-end product as I tried to explain yesterday.