The Economics of the Ultra High End

mep

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@Mark

If a $50 cartridge does not produce the bottom octave it is defective. :)

Jack-I agree, but Michael thinks it takes far more than $1950 in order to flesh out the bottom octave. That is why I got upset. If a $1950 cartridge is lacking deep bass, it is defective pure and simple in my book and shouldn't be given a "buy" recommendation and that was my point.
 

JackD201

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It was my way of saying, I TOTALLY agree with you.
 

Lee

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Jack-I agree, but Michael thinks it takes far more than $1950 in order to flesh out the bottom octave. That is why I got upset. If a $1950 cartridge is lacking deep bass, it is defective pure and simple in my book and shouldn't be given a "buy" recommendation and that was my point.

Well to be fair to Fremer and I hate to admit this for my own sake, but a $4K cart usually does, in my experience, have better bass.
 

mep

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Lee-There is a big difference between *better* bass and bass that is simply missing in action.

Mark
 

JackD201

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We're getting seriously off topic here so before we get green lettered allow this little parting shot. When it comes to bass quantity, a cheap MM will spank pretty much any MC. I haven't heard the Axia but I do own a Nightingale and have heard a couple of other Transfiguration carts. None of them was thin sounding and certainly didn't lack the bottom octave. I think Fremer was just careless in his language and Mark called him on it. Anyhow, this has it's own thread now so how's about we bring this over there before Lee or Ron show up :)
 

mep

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I think it's all pertinent to the economics of the high-end. $1950 doesn't buy you squat with regards to a cartridge according to Fremer. Let's move on though...
 

caesar

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@Caesar

People that do not trust their own ears shouldn't be swimming in these waters lest they drown (discover they like the other one) or be eaten alive by sharks (get sweet talked into buying a less than perfect fit).

I agree with you. But I am also talking about due diligence. Chances are that the high end dealer will have an amazing system, and if he is a good sales man, he will help you relax so you can notice the nuance of the concert. So if you hear, say, a Rockport - Gryphon system and trust your dealer that it is the best he has heard, but you have not heard the Magico BaLabo system, you may get the "wrong" one.
 

JackD201

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@Ceasar

Then the best thing is to have a good relationship with both. Hehehehe. ;)

@Lee

Good to know Lee :)
 

FrantzM

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Hi

Having opted out of analog for a while I should not post here. It remains however that assigning a dollar number to bass quality ... Statements like a "$4k cartridge has better bass than a $1200" are incorrect. This looks like there is a price threshold for bass (and overall) quality as if good bass cannot be obtained below this threshold ... Such statements take High End Audio to simplistic elitist luxury proposition that has nothing to do with the reality of music reproduction.
It bears the question .. What makes a $4k cartridge? Why $4k and not 10K? Where does it stop?

I will go back now to my digital lair ...
 

Lee

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Hi

Having opted out of analog for a while I should not post here. It remains however that assigning a dollar number to bass quality ... Statements like a "$4k cartridge has better bass than a $1200" are incorrect. This looks like there is a price threshold for bass (and overall) quality as if good bass cannot be obtained below this threshold ... Such statements take High End Audio to simplistic elitist luxury proposition that has nothing to do with the reality of music reproduction.
It bears the question .. What makes a $4k cartridge? Why $4k and not 10K? Where does it stop?

I will go back now to my digital lair ...

Well Frantz while I see your viewpoint and I agree with mep that saying no bass is available below that is just wrong, it has been my experience that more expensive carts do offer up more well defined bass and all around better performance.

But it is like many other things in audio...there are high value carts and the law of diminishing returns kick in.

When I had a $500 Grado Sonata (great cart by the way) I thought I was at 90% of what was possible. Now I have a $1,800 cartridge and it blows the lovely Sonata out of the water so maybe I was really at 50% of what's possible. If I move from the Lyra Argo(i) to a $5K Titan, what will happen? What will happen if a get Dynavector XV1s?

Sadly I will get more of everything. But I'm very happy with the Lyra I have.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

This POST in another thread concerning yet another $100K speaker system is spot on the sad economics of the High End and to me shows how complicit and willing we are in this whole (sad state of) affair ...

@tomelex .. Some of the Japanese units of the 80's were pretty decent .. They were surpassed IMO by true High End offering n the late 80's early 90's then there hasn't been much progress in performance only price increases.. The aforementioned post put it in perspective ... ever shrinking market which has demonstrated a great tolerance and even welcome attitude toward price increases ...
 

microstrip

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(...) My point is, unless your cartridge have specs that matter, and better specs mean more accuracy to the recording, then paying more for a cartridge without better specs (if you can find any) just means paying for a tone control. (...)

Tom,

Sorry, but I can not understand your statement . Can you tell us objectively what are the "specs that matter"? BTW, when you refer to a tone control you are just referring to something like a good equalizer ?
 

Lee

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Cartridges are serious tone controls.

Their different style stylus affect drag and friction and where they ride in the groove, such as ones that pull all the dirt out or just happily skip along the surface, etc.

They are like speakers, the more different they sound the more tone control like.

I have an old Telarc demo/test disc, and there is some serious low energy in the beach boys good vibrations cut. Some of the higher priced cartridges fall apart on that cut compared to a budget dynavector.

My point is, unless your cartridge have specs that matter, and better specs mean more accuracy to the recording, then paying more for a cartridge without better specs (if you can find any) just means paying for a tone control.

No problems with that, but price does not always reflect true accuracy or value, but just a changed sound. And that can be compensating for all kinds of other things in the system that are each purchased on the basis of some sound, and hence the never ending merry go round of component change outs...all the while feeling great satisfaction that it must be better because it costs more....

There is accuracy to the recording and there is what "sounds" good, and sometimes they both converge.

Funny, people are always dogging the japanese "spec war" amps, and yet quite a few in the club have pulled out their old pioneers and kenwoods and what not and had them re-capped and can't find anything wrong with the "sound". Perhaps aged ears....or perhaps there is not anything wrong with them used within their capabilities. Would those amps be classified as mid-century modern now?


Tom

For this reply to be true, you have to assume we can measure everything important in audio. I've never found that to be true.
 

caesar

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If we were just dependent on the entry level market then I believe companies would be more subject to effects of the recession and other parts of the economic cycle.

I think the high end market is also subject to recessions. More scpecifically, the high end market is subject to the valuation of the stock market. A lot of the rich don't necessarily pull in high salaries, but have huge investment portfolios. After the market crash during the latest recession, much of the luxury market dropped by 30%. Channel produced their ultra expensive clothing collections primarily in shades of grey, as the "rich" were not willing to show off. But when the markets recovered, so has the spending on luxury goods, including ultra high end audio.
 

FrantzM

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For this reply to be true, you have to assume we can measure everything important in audio. I've never found that to be true.

We may not but we can ... We will eventually ... If it exists it is measurable

Now a person can still prefer a particular method of reproduction just like some people prefer Tang to Orange Juice ... I would not rule out that it would be possible to measure what leads people to a given preference ...
 

FrantzM

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I think the high end market is also subject to recessions. More scpecifically, the high end market is subject to the valuation of the stock market. A lot of the rich don't necessarily pull in high salaries, but have huge investment portfolios. After the market crash during the latest recession, much of the luxury market dropped by 30%. Channel produced their ultra expensive clothing collections primarily in shades of grey, as the "rich" were not willing to show off. But when the markets recovered, so has the spending on luxury goods, including ultra high end audio.

High End Audio is a Luxury market the same economics laws apply...
 

caesar

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High End Audio is a Luxury market the same economics laws apply...


Frantz, I agree. My comments are specifically regarding the original point #3.( "There are more millionaires in the U.S. over time, some of which are audio fans that can spend more disposable income.") and the consumer psychology that drives the spending.
 

Lee

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We may not but we can ... We will eventually ... If it exists it is measurable

I think eventually we will be able to measure everything but I don't think we can now. That's why we need to supplement with critical listening skills.
 

Lee

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I think the high end market is also subject to recessions. More scpecifically, the high end market is subject to the valuation of the stock market. A lot of the rich don't necessarily pull in high salaries, but have huge investment portfolios. After the market crash during the latest recession, much of the luxury market dropped by 30%. Channel produced their ultra expensive clothing collections primarily in shades of grey, as the "rich" were not willing to show off. But when the markets recovered, so has the spending on luxury goods, including ultra high end audio.

Agreed.
 

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