The argument for/against room treatment

ACHiPo

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The manufacturer's explanation makes sense to me. I don't have any basis for disbelieveing it. I've already talked at great length about how they actually sound - as opposed to speculating.
It's great they work for you. I like the look of the panels and can see how they would diffuse/diffract mids.
 

ACHiPo

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Here's another product that also uses fractal patterns to accomplish broadband diffusion. I sat right up against the rear wall with a SD9F panel behind me @ Aaudio Imports when he was in Colorado and could not hear any reflected sound. It was very impressive.

https://www.goldenacoustics.com/productsLine.php

That panel goes down to 70Hz, but is quite a bit bigger than the ZR panels... Depth: 9in, Length: 94in, Width: 34in, Weight: 150lbs.


View attachment 80009
Looked at the site. Wow those are some funky panels!
 
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cal3713

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Looked at the site. Wow those are some funky panels!
They ain't pretty, but super impressive to my ears when they were just 12 inches away.
 
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Bobvin

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Sound control is even more important inside a spacecraft, of course!

That practicality is probably Giger's primary inspiration... https://www.hrgigermuseum.com/
Is this where Dan Dagostino got his inspiration for the meters on his amps? Look at the goggles on that little creepy gargoyle looking munchkin.
 
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Bobvin

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Looked at the site. Wow those are some funky panels!
Yep. If I was looking to sleep in the doghouse, I’d put those in my listening room!
 

cal3713

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Is this where Dan Dagostino git his inspiration for the meters on his amps? Look at the goggles on that little creepy gargoyle looking munchkin.
If you watch Jodorowsky's Dune (2013), you'll learn that everyone got their inspiration from Giger!
 
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ACHiPo

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Those that are quoted in your post. One thing is telling us about your room, endorsing the manufacturer claims needs something to substantiate them.
Micro,
I sent you a PM asking about Sound Lab acoustic treatment experience as I have a pair coming in a few weeks.

Evan
 

RichDavis

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For or against is a foolish and myopic way at thinking about room treatments.

Room treatments are dictated by the room in question, it either needs them or not.

Pretty simple.......
How many rooms in people's homes were actually designed for audio? Only those that are custom built that had an acoustician involved with the design of a dedicated listening room, and hopefully they were able to design a great sounding room.

Look at wall construction and room dimensions. 2x4 with sheet rock is awful for an audio listening rooms. Having low ceilings. Again, horrible for audio listening rooms. Dimensions with odd shapes, square floor plan, etc. Again, awful for audio listening room.

What I see is that people think that they should have their listening room to sound like a mastering room or a control room. Sorry, but they shouldn't if you want them to be enjoyable. Mastering rooms tend to be for a different type of listening. Mastering room is for checking levels and making adjustments to create a final product to fulfill the requirements of the record label/producer and/or artist. It's not sit back and enjoy your favorite recording for enjoyment purposes. So, we would most likely want front and rear diffusion, a little longer RT60 than a typical control room, which typically has no front wall diffusion.
 

stehno

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For or against is a foolish and myopic way at thinking about room treatments.

Room treatments are dictated by the room in question, it either needs them or not.

Pretty simple.......
You are sooooooooo close. But it's actually the playback system and its level of resolution that dictates whether acoustic treatments are needed or not. Well, that and one's ability to sufficiently acoustically couple their speakers to its associated room.

Of course, possessing the ability to discern / interpret what our playback presentations are telling us helps immensely.
 

cal3713

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You are sooooooooo close. But it's actually the playback system and its level of resolution that dictates whether acoustic treatments are needed or not. Well, that and one's ability to sufficiently acoustically couple their speakers to its associated room.

Of course, possessing the ability to discern / interpret what our playback presentations are telling us helps immensely.
I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart when pushed to extremes. You really believe that you won't need room treatments if you drop a high quality system into a huge tin box?? Or a location that echoes over and over and over??

If an actual band would sound like shit in some location, so would the best system in the world. It's just physics.
 

Cellcbern

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I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart when pushed to extremes. You really believe that you won't need room treatments if you drop a high quality system into a huge tin box?? Or a location that echoes over and over and over??

If an actual band would sound like shit in some location, so would the best system in the world. It's just physics.
I can't say that every listening room "needs" room treatments. However in 40+ years of experience I've never encountered a listening room where it wasn't obvious that the sound could have been improved with room treatments done well. No matter the system or room specifics, sound waves reflecting off of walls ensure that what is heard at the listening position is room effects overlaid on the direct sound from the system. Managing the reflections is necessary in order to achieve the highest possible sound quality. It is of course possible to make the room sound worse with room treatments done poorly.
 

Al M.

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I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart when pushed to extremes. You really believe that you won't need room treatments if you drop a high quality system into a huge tin box?? Or a location that echoes over and over and over??

If an actual band would sound like shit in some location, so would the best system in the world. It's just physics.

Stehno has been told many times and by many people why he is wrong, but he sticks to his guns and repeats the same fallacies over and over again. Don't bother.
 
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rsrzr

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I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart when pushed to extremes. You really believe that you won't need room treatments if you drop a high quality system into a huge tin box?? Or a location that echoes over and over and over??

If an actual band would sound like shit in some location, so would the best system in the world. It's just physics.
I agree. I would actually state the room is the most important component in the system, probably equal to synergy. A bad room can make a $1M system sound like sh$t, where a good room can help a so so system sound better. I doubt this poster ever had a treated room or they would understand the importance
 

stehno

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I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart when pushed to extremes. You really believe that you won't need room treatments if you drop a high quality system into a huge tin box?? Or a location that echoes over and over and over??

If an actual band would sound like shit in some location, so would the best system in the world. It's just physics.
Sorry as my position was intended toward aftermarket products such as acoustic treatments, bass traps, etc. IOW, I'm all for reasonable rooms. That includes rugs, carpet/pad, and minimal furnishings as I would consider those essentials to any reasonable room. It's any and all of the aftermarket products which are entirely unnecessary and the equivalent of putting a band-aid on a playback system that's hemorrhaging.

We've hashed much of this out here months ago.

But leave it to Al M to misunderstand and misquote and misinform.

Given this clarification, I stand by my previous statement and I seriously doubt anybody can prove it wrong. Especially Al M.
 
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delicatesound

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The acoustics of the listening room is the most important, and at the same time is the most neglected element when assembling a quality audio or AV system. Audiophiles beginners are often unaware and insufficiently familiar with the significance and problems of room acoustics, and do not pay enough attention to this topic.‎

‎The truth is that the same Hi Fi system in the room of optimized acoustics will sound incomparably better than in a room of bad acoustics, and the difference is greater than the difference that we can cause by changing any cables, fuses, pads and similar audiophile "toys" on which thousands of Euro/Dollars are often spent with great enthusiasm.‎

‎This is not surprising because the cable, for example, can be easily changed in half an hour, while for any significant change in the acoustics of space we need much more time and experimentation, with massive elements whose installation in space does not always agree with the vision of the esthetics of interior decoration of other family members. In addition, cables, pads, etc. often represent an ideal material for audiophilic "commodity exchange", while this goes much harder with bulky acoustic elements like TUBE TRAP.‎

‎So much for the reasons why people rarely approach solving the problem of acoustics. What would make any more serious audiophile have to make an effort with the acoustics of their listening room is to mention the beneficial impact on sound. The price for basic acoustic TUBE TRAP treatment often does not exceed money for a set of high-quality cables, so from‎‎ ‎‎ ‎‎this side upgrade using TUBE BASS TRAP components should not be problematic because they are the ‎‎same time also an esthetically refined products.‎

‎With regard to the scattering of sound in wave form, the room of average dimensions most significantly affects the Bass area. Room that has smaller dimensions than the length of sound waves, so there is a pronounced upscaling and downscaling of volume at certain frequencies.‎

‎Such a problem is reduced by everyday furniture and other objects in the room.‎

‎However, often the amount and type of furniture is insufficient to significantly affect the acoustics in the bass area.‎

‎Today's esthetics of the interior do not favor audiophiles, minimalist decoration of the space with smooth, solid and large surfaces do not favor acoustics suitable quality sound reproduction and equipment in which you have invested thousands of Euro/Dollars.‎

‎Powerful echoes of smooth surfaces "distort" sound and raise the energy of medium and high tones, while in bass range we have presence of "hills and valleys" , and in most cases this can make the sound of a superior and expensive high-end system to be completely worthless.‎

 

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delicatesound

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‎By setting up SST TUBE BASS TRAP or maybe ASC Tube Bass Trap components, you will achieve a much cleaner and more defined sound, a more durable and deeper stereo image, better highlighted effects of film tone, and overall higher sound quality by all parameters. Any typical listening room, in which no attention is paid to acoustics, does not allow to your expensive Hi Fi system to achieve even a half of its capabilities. The acoustics itself give more than half the sound impression, which is why it is a basic element for achieving good sound. In principle, almost every fan of good sound knows this, but very few are satisfied with the state of the acoustics of their own room. I believe that many would be surprised how today's solutions to acoustic problems are solvable, and many of them look decorative and effective.‎

The corners in the room behave to transform sound waves into unwanted pressure fluctuations.‎

‎TUBE TRAPS are designed to fully absorb unwanted sound pressure zones created in all 8 corners of the room.

4 in the ceiling zone, and 4 in the floor zone.‎

‎TUBE TRAPS absorb this unwanted pressure in their interior, which is composed of multiple layers.

The diameter of tube trap, not its height determines the value of the impact on low frequencies.‎

My ‎SST Tube TRAP has a built-in diffuse reflective panel, so that the user can calibrate the ambient atmosphere by turning TUBE TRAP around its wasp.

When low frequency sound is generated in the room, its waves travel in all directions.‎

‎At certain frequencies, reflection patterns begin to overlap and form a synchronized state with each other and then we have the appearance of stoic waves.‎

‎Whenever this pattern overlaps with the sound from the speakers, we get an unwanted "boom boom" effect from the speaker that uncontrollably highlights only a few very strong bass tones, while the rest of the spectrum is lost in space. ‎

‎The problem could be "solved" by removing all the walls of your room, but of course this is not a feasible way to solve the problem.‎

‎The solution is in the implementation of TUBE TRAP technology that balances bass response in space.

When bass is generated near a wall, its free-field frequency response becomes distorted.‎

‎The first reflection point creates a wave of pressure over the cone of the speakers.‎

‎The walls, floor and angles with their reflection create waves that are "late" from 5 to 20 ms and that wave mixed with the signal that came out directly from the speakers, induce unwanted effects in the bass scope of the speaker's operation, as well as the appearance of unwanted petals of lateral reflections.‎

‎TUBE TRAP located at each of these reflection points will reduce the strength of these reflections and lateral petals in the bass area. Of course not all reflections from walls are bad.‎

‎Diffuse/Absorption surface in TUBE TRAP positioned by the user by turning tube TRAP around its axe, in order to make the best use of its diffuse surface for the purpose of increasing the ambient sound image of the space.‎

‎TUBE TRAPS can also be used outdoors in combination with speakers to improve their performance.‎

‎Stacking TUBE TRAPS side by side to expand the effective speaker surface achieves an effect of increased bass orientation and efficiency. ‎

TUBE TRAPS also can be stacked next to each other in a sequence that will cast a sound shadow on the laterally side of the speakers.‎

‎Tube Traps transform room acoustics into an unforgettable precise and dynamic bass musical line, and they work great with sudden and dynamic sound variations.‎

Reflection Properties

‎With its adaptive absorption and reflection properties, TUBE BASS TRAP allows the listener to quickly and easily adjust the relative amount of absorption and diffusion in the room, thereby optimizing the focus of the image and the overall coherence of the sound scene. After experimenting with the placement and rotation of TUBE TRAP, you will get a high-quality sound image, with excellent positioning of instruments by depth and space.‎

‎Adaptive absorption and reflection of TUBE TRAP enables quick adjusting of the width of the sound image and focusing on the wheels of lateral reflections. By adjusting the reflection, the sound image expands while adjusting the absorption will not expand the sound image outside the speaker space.‎

‎Final result is that the sound image becomes transparent, more precise, stable, and the space acquires three-dimensionality of vocals and acoustic instruments.‎

Bass control‎​

At the end, this is the primary feature that most people associate with products from the TUBE TRAP program.‎

‎By proper setting, TUBE TRAPs do an exceptional job of "ironing" modal spades inherent in all listening rooms.‎

‎By placing TUBE TRAP components in all four corners and in the central places of all four walls, you can significantly improve the response of bass in the room.‎

‎Sound of the drums become firmer, the tones of the deep bass synthesizer are cleaner, and the electric bass guitar will reproduce with less "mutation" and the precision and depth of the sound image now acquires its final shape.‎

‎TUBE TRAP products are bulky and visible with their appearance, but their wide color palette allows the user to adapt them to the space as a decorative element, and if you place some background indirect lighting behind them you will get a wonderful decorative element in the evening hours of relaxation.‎

‎Tube Trap represents the best sound enhancement that can be experienced.‎

‎If you start to question the actual effectiveness of TUBE TRAP, all you have to do is remove them from your listening room.‎

‎After removing them and re-listening your audio files without TUBE TRAPS, you will immediately conclude that you need to return them back.‎

‎TUBE TRAP is a huge benefit to your Hi Fi system due to its price-performance ratio.‎

‎You can start the treatment your room acoustics with one or two TUBE TRAP, and increase their number over the time, and thus gradually improve the performance of the space as much as your finances allow.‎

Regards
DS
 
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stehno

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...​

‎The truth is that the same Hi Fi system in the room of optimized acoustics will sound incomparably better than in a room of bad acoustics, and the difference is greater than the difference that we can cause by changing any cables, fuses, pads and similar audiophile "toys" on which thousands of Euro/Dollars are often spent with great enthusiasm.‎

...​


It all sounds so good on paper. If (and it is not so) the difference of adding aftermarket acoustic treatment is so profound, why doesn't anybody ever share an in-room recording of a before and after? It can't be that difficult. Besides, wouldn't that be an excellent marketing tool for any acoustic treatment vendor?

But as I've stated before, one can either deal with the cause or the effects. When dealing with the effects, the costs are most always many times more than the costs of dealing with the cause. What's worse is the results of dealing with the effects are most always a pittance when compared to the results of dealing with the cause.

The causes are a playback system's deficiencies and an inferior attempt to acoustically couple the speakers/subs to its associated room by superior placement and tuning. Neglecting these causes induce ill-effects or shortcomings which in turn causes many to remedy via acoustic treatments, bass traps, etc.

Dealing with the effects can never substitute for neglect at the playback system (it's impossible) nor neglect at the speaker/room interaction. If that is true, and assuming one already has a reasonable-enough listening room, then it stands to reason that aftermarket acoustic treatments can only serve as a band-aid to make a less than tolerable listening session sound a bit more tolerable. And when something sounds a bit more tolerable, we often times call it more musical.

Wouldn't it seem all too easy to prove me wrong by somebody providing an inferior sounding before recording and a superior musical sounding after recording?

Below is an example that I think can easily substantiate my claims as I have a bit of a smaller room without any aftermarket acoustic treatments including bass traps, etc. All of my resources are spent at the two causes mentioned above and near as I can tell, the volumes of the live performance's ambient info (that most will never hear because they'e neglected their systems) has completely overshadowed perhaps every last room acoustic anomaly which we all have anyway. IOW, my listening room is all but gone supposedly because I focused on the cause rather than the effects of the cause. As a result of addressing the causes, my listening perspective is somewhere/anywhere in the recording hall, even if it's by the restrooms. But my listening room is gone. And if my room is gone, why would I spend a even a nickle to improve my room?

 
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Addicted to hifi

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It all sounds so good on paper. If (and it is not so) the difference is so profound, why doesn't anybody ever share an in-room recording of a before and after? It can't be that difficult.

But as I've stated before, one can either deal with the cause or the effects. When dealing with the effects, the resources are most always many times more than dealing with the cause and the results of dealing with the effects are most always a pittance when compared to the results of dealing with the cause.

The causes are a playback system's deficiencies and an inferior attempt to acoustically couple the speakers/subs to its associated room by superior placement and tuning. And the effects are acoustic treatments including bass traps.

Dealing with the effects can never substitute for neglect at the playback system nor neglect at the speaker/room interaction. If that is true, then assuming one already posssesses a reasonable-enough listening room, then it stands to reason that aftermarket acoustic treatments can only serve as a band-aid to make a less than tolerable listening session sound a bit more tolerable.

Wouldn't it seem all too easy to prove me wrong by somebody providing an inferior sounding before recording and a superior musical sounding after recording?

Below is an example that I think can easily substantiate my claims as I have a bit of a smaller room without any aftermarket acoustic treatments including bass traps, etc. All of my resources are spent at the two causes mentioned above and near as I can tell, the volumes of the live performance's ambient info (that most will never hear because they'e neglected their systems) has completely overshadowed perhaps every last room acoustic anomaly which we all have anyway. IOW, my listening room is all but gone supposedly because I focused on the cause rather than the effects of the cause. As a result, my listening perspective is somewhere/anywhere in the recording hall, even if it's by the restrooms. But my listening room is gone.




Beautiful recording.
 

stehno

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Beautiful recording.

Thanks, Addicted. I bought it myself. :)

Yes, it is indeed a well-engineered recording and yet only you and Duke gave any positive acknowledglement.

This one video alone should easily demonstrate to even the least discriminating ear that it can be done without any costly aftermarket acoustic treatments and very costly custom designed listening rooms. FWIW, my listening room is my former kitchen. And though I can produce many simlar videos just how many times must one fly to the moon to prove it can be done?

Based on the usual silence here, I suspect others think my room actually sounds like this and other rooms too so they're gonna' keep on doing the same ol' same ol'. Because that's what fits their preconceived narrative after being told by "experts" for 30+ years that the room is the most important component when it really shouldn't even be on anybody's radar other than being a fairly reasoable room.

Of course if somebody wants to trophy their system in a $200k custom designed room with $30k worth of acoustic tratments, have at it. Just stop telling the rest of us it's the most important component of a system because there's very little if any truth to such things. If there was, it should be all too easy to provide a video proving it, right?
 

Tim Link

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Thanks, Addicted. I bought it myself. :)

Yes, it is indeed a well-engineered recording and yet only you and Duke gave any positive acknowledglement.

This one video alone should easily demonstrate to even the least discriminating ear that it can be done without any costly aftermarket acoustic treatments and very costly custom designed listening rooms. FWIW, my listening room is my former kitchen. And though I can produce many simlar videos just how many times must one fly to the moon to prove it can be done?

Based on the usual silence here, I suspect others think my room actually sounds like this and other rooms too so they're gonna' keep on doing the same ol' same ol'. Because that's what fits their preconceived narrative after being told by "experts" for 30+ years that the room is the most important component when it really shouldn't even be on anybody's radar other than being a fairly reasoable room.

Of course if somebody wants to trophy their system in a $200k custom designed room with $30k worth of acoustic tratments, have at it. Just stop telling the rest of us it's the most important component of a system because there's very little if any truth to such things. If there was, it should be all too easy to provide a video proving it, right?

I still want to take you up on your challenge to create comparison videos of a system playing in a room with various levels room treatments. I think it will be easy to hear the difference and enlightening for myself and others. Right now I can't do it because the space I need is filled with inventory being held up due to a lack of shipping containers.
 
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