Bob is having trouble logging into this site to respond to questions regarding the AF2, ect. That should be resolved soon.
TechDAS Air Force 2
- Thread starter JackD201
- Start date
Well, in my absence from the site, I see there is a lot to comment on. Perhaps in sections; we'll see how this posting progresses. But for now, I should say that I would have liked to be at RMAF, but - wearing so many hats, as has been suggested - means I have to divide my time between design/production and marketing. But the main reason I was not at RMAF was that my wife was ill at the time, and I'm here to tell you that when things like that happen, hi-fi and demonstrations take a back seat.
I heard that RMAF was not as well attended as in previous years, so that's unfortunate. And you do have to pick and choose; without a transporter chamber to work with, it's not easy to be in all the places we'd like (or need) to be. My Canadian distributor is located in Toronto, so I elected to be there for the TAVES show. Long drive, but it was nice to meet the nice people who attended.
As for being a "silent partner" MEP (and Gary Koh, too) should try to keep in mind that taking on a new job - and a new hat -requires considerable effort and planning, not to mention - as is so popular a term now in our political mad-house - a redistribution of funds; that is, balancing the needs of production against enough, but not excessive, traveling to all the shows. In any event, rest assured that 2014 will see magazine advertising, attendance at some (but not all) local shows, and of course, CES. It's a lot of work, but it's what's necessary and we're anxious to bring this powerhouse combination to as much light as possible. It's easy to say "just do it", and another thing to be in there making it happen. Try it sometime, and see what I mean...
That being said, I assure you that being involved with the good folks at Stella, not to mention these absolutely state-of-the-art products is wonderful - long days and all. Like many of you, I fell in love with the AF-1, and was so impressed with it, in fact, that my next tonearm design goal - already in the works before I became involved with TechDAS - was shifted to a whole new level of targeted achievement. And with the Elite, I believe we've arrived there; it's an ideal match for the AF1, both in style and performance enhancements. And, along with the AF-1 and AF-2, we will certainly promote and demonstrate everything to our best abilities; this will include of course the CES show, as well as other local consumer shows and dealer events as may be practical and mutually beneficial. We are in discussion with a few key dealers around the U.S., Canada and S. America, and hope that most or all of them will be in a position to carry a demonstration unit in-house so that interested parties will not have to wait until some show comes to town in order to see and hear what is arguably the finest record player system(s) available (yes, I know - other manufacturers say the same thing, but hearing is believing...!)
We are also in the process of building an entirely new website (much needed) and this will have technical specifications answered that may be reasonably asked. It will keep you informed of the various products I'm designing and producing, concurrent with all the available details of the TechDAS products (which includes not only the turntables, but a new phono cartridge, interconnect cables, and a DAC converter - all of which will be seen at this year's CES show, by the way). And, finally - the production Elite arm will be there on the Air Force One turntable in the Lamm Industries room (34th floor) with the Air Force Two and another of my tonearms in the adjacent room.
(Note to Gary Koh: sorry, the AF-2 would not be available for the Genesis room, as he hinted in post #31, and this is only for the reason that the one-and-only available unit will be in my hands; it is not because the Phantom arms were not mentioned in that posting: "I'll certainly gladly host one in the Genesis room at CES - but only if he lets me put the Vertere tonearm on it." No one has yet seen or heard the production Elite arms, and I promise you that, and with all due respect to any other tonearms out there, I may be forgiven if I say that the Elite will not leave anyone wanting for more...)
I'm not always on this site, as you can tell, so please do not think I'm disinterested in the goings-on here; however, you can also appreciate that making new, cutting edge products does not come from thin air (not even with 3-D printing, another subject for another time - except to say it's NOT a magic wand, merely another machining tool), and so I must divide my hats fairly between design, production, promotion and, of course, family.
More later, and I will do my best to answer all reasonable questions. See you at (some of) the shows, to paraphrase what Roger Ebert used to say. My best to all...
- Bob Graham (alias The Phantom)
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note to Jack (philippines>
Thanks for the updates and steering people to my new WBF moniker (the Phatnom) - also for the love-in picture at Halloween. Lucky you, to have first look at the AF-2 turntable, I haven't seen this unit yet, but am looking forward to doing to at CES; afater that, I'll be taking that unit into the U.S. dealer/reviewer circles. I have some more info, too, on questions that have popped up on the site (and around town) and will write replies shortly. And just WAIT until you hear the current, productin Elite on the AF-1 (and, I'm sure, the AF-2 as well)... This arm is more than I expected when I set out to design something noticeably better (and more costly - sorry, but unavoidable) than the previous Phantom series. Which doesn't make those arms any less good or valuable, just that this one is my best shot so far. Note to worthy contenders: they are welcome for a shoot-out, too...!
Have a Good day.--
- Bob Graham
Thanks for the updates and steering people to my new WBF moniker (the Phatnom) - also for the love-in picture at Halloween. Lucky you, to have first look at the AF-2 turntable, I haven't seen this unit yet, but am looking forward to doing to at CES; afater that, I'll be taking that unit into the U.S. dealer/reviewer circles. I have some more info, too, on questions that have popped up on the site (and around town) and will write replies shortly. And just WAIT until you hear the current, productin Elite on the AF-1 (and, I'm sure, the AF-2 as well)... This arm is more than I expected when I set out to design something noticeably better (and more costly - sorry, but unavoidable) than the previous Phantom series. Which doesn't make those arms any less good or valuable, just that this one is my best shot so far. Note to worthy contenders: they are welcome for a shoot-out, too...!
Have a Good day.--
- Bob Graham
Did anyone have a chance to compare the sounds of these two arms? They both look to be 12". Is that the new Elite or the Phantom? Finally, I wonder if there is a sonic difference between the two different arm mounting boards.
I was there but didn't get to hear the SME Peter. I read that Ken Kessler was there in Tokyo too (didn't meet him). Maybe KK did. He has a factory tour of TechDAS coming out in his Mag in the near future, hopefully he did and wrote about it.
The Phantom shown isn't a 12" albeit I'm not sure if it has a Phantom or Phantom L wand. I't looked like a 10.5 inch to me but to be honest my attention was more on the silver arm on the AF 1. The armboards use the same materials and are of the same thickness, I doubt whatever differences there are amount to much based on that alone. Boards are machined and fixed according to arm maker supplied geometries so pivot to spindle is pretty much spot on from the get go. All you have to do is tell your dealer exactly what arm you have and that will be the board supplied as part of the package. If you have more than one arm you intend to use in the same position however, you will need to order a board for each of those.
Silent Jim for example has boards for his 2 different Durands, 2 different Da Vincis, A graham mount, and a KZ 4-point for his AF 1. What I neglected to ask is if an AF1 armboard can be a direct drop in for an AF2. I suppose I will eventually if ever it happens that a 1 owner wants a 2 for a second table. Just hasn't happened yet.
The Phantom shown isn't a 12" albeit I'm not sure if it has a Phantom or Phantom L wand. I't looked like a 10.5 inch to me but to be honest my attention was more on the silver arm on the AF 1. The armboards use the same materials and are of the same thickness, I doubt whatever differences there are amount to much based on that alone. Boards are machined and fixed according to arm maker supplied geometries so pivot to spindle is pretty much spot on from the get go. All you have to do is tell your dealer exactly what arm you have and that will be the board supplied as part of the package. If you have more than one arm you intend to use in the same position however, you will need to order a board for each of those.
Silent Jim for example has boards for his 2 different Durands, 2 different Da Vincis, A graham mount, and a KZ 4-point for his AF 1. What I neglected to ask is if an AF1 armboard can be a direct drop in for an AF2. I suppose I will eventually if ever it happens that a 1 owner wants a 2 for a second table. Just hasn't happened yet.
armboard designs and the Elite
As I mentioned in my last post, Jack - thanks for your input on these things. Not only do you have very good taste in women but your information on the 'tables is reliable, and helps to offset the assumptions that can creep up in these discussions. As I wrote before, I've been way overloaded with design, production and putting new marketing plans into place. It's a lot of work, but very rewarding in the sense that I enjoy what I'm doing - especially as the Elite comes to real daylight. And of course I LOVE the 'tables!!.
You mentioned you were more engrossed in the silver arm on the AF-1 at the Tokyo show. If no one picked up on this, that is the prototype of the upcoming Elite. The production unit will be a bit more refined aesthetically, and will perform to an even higher level of performance. And, if I may humbly suggest, will reduce the urge to look at other tonearms. The performance of the Elite and the AF-1 is, I sincerely believe, at the current state of the art. I believe other opinions and experiences will bear this out.... (I know, it's not modest, but it is what I really believe - and worked hard to achieve, by the way..!!!!)
As to the question if the armboards are interchangeable between the AF-1 and AF-2: in looking at the photos, and thinking as a designer/manufactuer, I'd say they are identical boards and fully interchangeable. This could be wrong, of course, and I'll know for sure at CES, but I'd bet they are the same. It makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint, too, since a second design is always more expensive than making more of something that already is in the works, and programmed into the CNC machines....
Bob G.
As I mentioned in my last post, Jack - thanks for your input on these things. Not only do you have very good taste in women
but your information on the 'tables is reliable, and helps to offset the assumptions that can creep up in these discussions. As I wrote before, I've been way overloaded with design, production and putting new marketing plans into place. It's a lot of work, but very rewarding in the sense that I enjoy what I'm doing - especially as the Elite comes to real daylight. And of course I LOVE the 'tables!!. You mentioned you were more engrossed in the silver arm on the AF-1 at the Tokyo show. If no one picked up on this, that is the prototype of the upcoming Elite. The production unit will be a bit more refined aesthetically, and will perform to an even higher level of performance. And, if I may humbly suggest, will reduce the urge to look at other tonearms. The performance of the Elite and the AF-1 is, I sincerely believe, at the current state of the art. I believe other opinions and experiences will bear this out.... (I know, it's not modest, but it is what I really believe - and worked hard to achieve, by the way..!!!!)
As to the question if the armboards are interchangeable between the AF-1 and AF-2: in looking at the photos, and thinking as a designer/manufactuer, I'd say they are identical boards and fully interchangeable. This could be wrong, of course, and I'll know for sure at CES, but I'd bet they are the same. It makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint, too, since a second design is always more expensive than making more of something that already is in the works, and programmed into the CNC machines....
Bob G.
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Bob on the AF2 in Japan can you say what mass the armwand is on the Phantom II and whether it was 9 or 10 inch?
I would say that it's the 10-inch wand, hvbias (not sure of your real name - sorry!) . Actually, folks, the difference between the 9-inch and 10-inch arms is slight; in fact, it is only 1/2-inch..! The original length standard was based on a 235mm effective length; i.e, about 9-1/2 inches. The 10-inch was introduced to make life easier for VPI and Clearadio owners who had those Frisbee type record clamps, as the original length arm would be too close a fit.
As it turns out, both the 9-1/2 and 10-inch arms fit fine on the AF-1; however, the 10-inch, with SME base, is a near-PERFECT fit, as the profile shape of the AF-1 mounting area is essentially the SME (parallel sides and rounded ends). Moreover, when the 10-inch arm is properly installed, the fore-aft positioning of the base puts the Phantom (and of course, the Elite) squarely in the middle of the turntable mount. So, it looks custom made, and with the upcoming Elite, and it's AF-1 inspired styling cues, that is the perfect description.
The AF-1 is more than an incredible turntable; it's a piece of fine sculpture, a work of art. Now, the AF-2 will continue that tradition, providing similar performance for less money and, in some cases (like posting #69) will even prefer the look. It's all personal, of course.
As it turns out, both the 9-1/2 and 10-inch arms fit fine on the AF-1; however, the 10-inch, with SME base, is a near-PERFECT fit, as the profile shape of the AF-1 mounting area is essentially the SME (parallel sides and rounded ends). Moreover, when the 10-inch arm is properly installed, the fore-aft positioning of the base puts the Phantom (and of course, the Elite) squarely in the middle of the turntable mount. So, it looks custom made, and with the upcoming Elite, and it's AF-1 inspired styling cues, that is the perfect description.
The AF-1 is more than an incredible turntable; it's a piece of fine sculpture, a work of art. Now, the AF-2 will continue that tradition, providing similar performance for less money and, in some cases (like posting #69) will even prefer the look. It's all personal, of course.
pricing to be determined
Not quite yet, I'm afraid - at least, not set in stone. I believe it will retail for less than $50K, but please do not quote me yet, as final costings are still being determined by the manufactuer. Indeed, my own costing for the Phantom II and the new Elite arms are also being finalized, as the latest punch-in-my-stomach pricing news arrives from the various machine shop vendors...
As I said in an earlier posting on this thread, just try doing any of this stuff yourself, and you'll see quickly enough the parallel between trying to manufacture at rates the customers won't be unhappy about, and a salmon swimming upstream.. Unless you want to run an audiophile charity, that is..
As they used to say on the radio, "T'ain't easy, Mc'Gee.!!"
Not quite yet, I'm afraid - at least, not set in stone. I believe it will retail for less than $50K, but please do not quote me yet, as final costings are still being determined by the manufactuer. Indeed, my own costing for the Phantom II and the new Elite arms are also being finalized, as the latest punch-in-my-stomach pricing news arrives from the various machine shop vendors...
As I said in an earlier posting on this thread, just try doing any of this stuff yourself, and you'll see quickly enough the parallel between trying to manufacture at rates the customers won't be unhappy about, and a salmon swimming upstream.. Unless you want to run an audiophile charity, that is..
As they used to say on the radio, "T'ain't easy, Mc'Gee.!!"
Not quite yet, I'm afraid - at least, not set in stone. I believe it will retail for less than $50K, but please do not quote me yet, as final costings are still being determined by the manufactuer. Indeed, my own costing for the Phantom II and the new Elite arms are also being finalized, as the latest punch-in-my-stomach pricing news arrives from the various machine shop vendors...
As I said in an earlier posting on this thread, just try doing any of this stuff yourself, and you'll see quickly enough the parallel between trying to manufacture at rates the customers won't be unhappy about, and a salmon swimming upstream.. Unless you want to run an audiophile charity, that is..
As they used to say on the radio, "T'ain't easy, Mc'Gee.!!"
Are there any updates to this AF2? Has anyone heard one, what will the price be and how does it sound? I'm very curious about the performance of this belt drive relative to the rim drive and direct drive tables that seem to be so popular (Like the VPI, The Beat, TransFi). The other belt drives that come to mind are the Brinkman, the SME and the Basis.
I've heard the Air Force 2 side by side with the Air Force 1. The AF1 had the Elite Prototype and the AF2 a Supreme. Both had TD COI cartridges. Being a show, I couldn't really pinpoint any big difference. I suppose this is a very good thing. Nishikawa-san says that the AF2 will do everything the AF1 does in systems with moderate bass output. The AF1 is designed and recommended for the flat to the 20's and below club or those that really just dig how well sculpted and built the flagship is.
Last month I was at Stella's HQ. Nishikawa-san told me that they plan to have loads of options for the AF2. The basic AF2 will have the 30lb platter and a pump/motor amp box of it's own. The buyer can have the option of configuring his AF2 with the 70lb platter and the AF1 pump/motor amp box with the condenser box as well as the choice of one of the three upper platter choices upon ordering. Prices have still not been determined but are expected to be announced to distributors this month as well as the price for the new TD Ti cartridge.
From the Tokyo Show last November
At Stella's last month
Last month I was at Stella's HQ. Nishikawa-san told me that they plan to have loads of options for the AF2. The basic AF2 will have the 30lb platter and a pump/motor amp box of it's own. The buyer can have the option of configuring his AF2 with the 70lb platter and the AF1 pump/motor amp box with the condenser box as well as the choice of one of the three upper platter choices upon ordering. Prices have still not been determined but are expected to be announced to distributors this month as well as the price for the new TD Ti cartridge.
From the Tokyo Show last November
At Stella's last month
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Its pretty consistent with what he did with Micro Seiki tables and the AF1 is more or less the same table in different clothing. The key difference was alway mass, the heavier stainless steel platter always gave you the extra solidity and the deep detailed bass that the SZ-1 and SX-8000 were known for and still untouched by any other except a couple. The hot rod models like the FVG got you in at a lower price and then you could theoretically build up all the way to the top model. The catch was were you stopped before having the sound quality going south. Looks like the same strategy again, same basic design using mass for sound and price differentiation. What you can bet on is that it will be another incredible sounding turntable penned by Nishikawa san! Nothing will be amiss in the AF2 without side by side comparison with the AF1 on a high end, high rez system.
david
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