Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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#61
Mike and Christian need to chime in here, what floor construction do they have?
6" of concrete over glacial till. then composite hardwood glued directly to that concrete under the speaker end. spikes through the carpet and pad onto the concrete for the source area.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#62
Well Mike, I can confidently conclude your floor is solid. As solid as they come.
And I concur with Taiko that Stacore is the better option for springier floors like mine. But that doesn’t mean Stacore is a worse option in principle than Herzan or Tana on solid floors.
Since Tana, Herzan, Accurion, Minus K and Stacore can be trialled at minimal financial loss, surely those like us wanting to go the extra mile on isolation ought to try out a few alternatives including Stacore. Herzan may really not be suited to non solid floors, but that doesn’t mean Stacore is suited any less than Herzan or Tana to solid floors.
And since this is a Tana thread, not a Stacore one, that’s all I want to say.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#64
trying to keep this simple and brief,

the Tripoint Elite (the Troy Sig is similar but not the same) is about weight and energy, along with natural tone and lowered noise. like a prism filtering out the sense of reproduction and leaving music and emotional involvement. it's a profound degree of effect.....not subtle.

the Taiko Tana/LPS/Setchi is about levels of detail, texture and ambient space definition. it resolves incongruities in the musical flow and completes the picture, separates things better and adds ease to musical peaks, and allows for the bass to fully decay and have more natural snap and slam. also seems to filter out any sense of the reproduction process, and any sense that there are speakers or amps or a system even. again; not a subtle effect.

the two seem to compliment each other and if i was choosing one or the other.......i could not do that right now. and i have no plans of needing to do that. maybe the only other thing i would say is that you can make a case for the Taiko Tana as a fundamental piece of a system to start with. whereas i see the Tripoint as a complimentary 'finishing touch' sort of product after you have done the heavy lifting sorting out a system. having the Tripoint in a system from the beginning might hold you back from finding the best of the gear or even the right gear. it has too much of it's own direction. not that it's colored, but it does certainly have a presence.

this is just my own opinion, based on my experience and personal room and system situation. YMMV. i'm sure we will hear from Audiocrack for his alternate viewpoint on the Tripoint. and his perspective is correct based on his situation. we are maybe both right for our own reasons.
This is very well-explained! Thank you, Mike.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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#65
this morning I moved the Taiko Tana, LPS and Stechi back under the SGM server. it's been under the NVS for a few weeks and I've enjoyed it there. this past week I've been out of town on business and trying to catch up with life. so today back to music and hifi and the quest.

my plan is to move the combo (Taiko Tana-LPS-Stechi) to the MSB dac, and also the dart pre. but I thought I needed to first get my bearings back with the SGM. all is not the same since I last had the Taiko Tana, LPS and Stechi on the SGM three weeks ago. significantly, I moved one of the Hardpoint Trina's to under the Tripoint Elite. I had already moved the Hardpoint Serene to the Tripoint Troy Signature. and this change has moved things to a mind blowing level of digital deliciousness. I've been listening now for about 2 hours going through my digital references. it's like the levels of reality and vividness have been moved higher. likely it's not objectively much of a change, but the emotional and physical connection to the music is more powerful. and the tonal richness adding the Hardpoint Trina to the Tripoint Elite boosts adding the Taiko Tana to the SGM an even higher level. all the little tells are more profound, and all the little musical things that were not very audible, now are more audible and they now have their own air and decays. is more toward analog? I need to listen for a few days, and mix in some analog to comment on that. my sense is that optimizing the Tripoint Troy and Elite in combination with the Taiko Tana and Hardpoint footers has added up to a wonderful mix.....more later.

next-2.jpg

next-1.jpg
 
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Nov 3, 2017
87
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#66
this morning I moved the Taiko Tana, LPS and Stechi back under the SGM server. it's been under the NVS for a few weeks and I've enjoyed it there. this past week I've been out of town on business and trying to catch up with life. so today back to music and hifi and the quest.

my plan is to move the combo (Taiko Tana-LPS-Stechi) to the MSB dac, and also the dart pre. but I thought I needed to first get my bearings back with the SGM. all is not the same since I last had the Taiko Tana, LPS and Stechi on the SGM three weeks ago. significantly, I moved one of the Hardpoint Trina's to under the Tripoint Elite. I had already moved the Hardpoint Serene to the Tripoint Troy Signature. and this change has moved things to a mind blowing level of digital deliciousness. I've been listening now for about 2 hours going through my digital references. it's like the levels of reality and vividness have been moved higher. likely it's not objectively much of a change, but the emotional and physical connection to the music is more powerful. and the tonal richness adding the Hardpoint Trina to the Tripoint Elite boosts adding the Taiko Tana to the SGM an even higher level. all the little tells are more profound, and all the little musical things that were not very audible, now are more audible and they now have their own air and decays. is more toward analog? I need to listen for a few days, and mix in some analog to comment on that. my sense is that optimizing the Tripoint Troy and Elite in combination with the Taiko Tana and Hardpoint footers has added up to a wonderful mix.....more later.

View attachment 37801

View attachment 37802
Perhaps a tad OT, but I am very curious if you are using the digital filtered outlets from your Equitech panel to power your SGM or the PSU for the MSB DAC?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#67
Perhaps a tad OT, but I am very curious if you are using the digital filtered outlets from your Equitech panel to power your SGM or the PSU for the MSB DAC?
yes; the two power supplies (one for the analog circuits, and one for the digital circuits) of the MSB, and the SGM, are powered from the filtered outlets. plus the bass tower amplifiers are each powered by a filtered outlet.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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#68
second Taiko Tana combo is here, this time a TS-140 version. it came in today, one normal sized box for the LPS and one 126 pound box with the big Panzerholtz plinth and TS-140.

before I had tried the smaller TS-150 Taiko Tana version with the NVS tt and it did push things to a considerably higher level over the stock Herzan TS-150. i'd say the larger 'right sized' Taiko Tana TS-140 + LPS + Stechi has stepped considerably beyond the degree of improvement of the smaller TS-150.

first impressions now these last couple of hours are extremely promising. tomorrow I will comment further. below are some pictures; you can see the TS-150 Taiko Tana currently under my SGM server. my next move will be to switch that smaller one to under the dart preamp and see how that affects both digital and vinyl. this is cutting edge stuff.

140-1.jpg

140-2.jpg
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#69
more pictures. read my comments in the post right above.

140-3.jpg

140-4.jpg
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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#70
Looks like some nice stuff Mike. It would be interesting to hear your observations with both active on and off (herzan still powered up). I’m inclined to use active for power supplies only. I think active works against the music with some analog playback devices as I have experienced. The music is pleasant but more homogenized in a sense...it loses some of that raw realism.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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#71
Looks like some nice stuff Mike. It would be interesting to hear your observations with both active on and off (herzan still powered up). I’m inclined to use active for power supplies only. I think active works against the music with some analog playback devices as I have experienced. The music is pleasant but more homogenized in a sense...it loses some of that raw realism.
i'm going to allow Ed or Emile from Taiko Tana to comment on their findings regarding your perspective about cause and effect. I don't want to mess up the explanation. they have an AVI unit in house and pursuant to my concerns have inspected the power supply. and obviously I have 2 stock Herzan's; a TS-150 and TS-140, and 2 Taiko Tana TS-140 & 150 units here to compare. i'm not disputing in any way what you are hearing. the issue is the root cause of why active mode in your NDW23 is not resulting in the performance boost under the AS-2000 that i'm hearing here. and I can tell you i'm definitely hearing exactly a raw realism boost in active mode for both my SGM server and NVS turntable.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#72
Christian, you were one of the big advocates for active isolation right from the beginning.
I guess what we can draw from your experiences of AF1 being only borderline aided by Herzan, and AS2000 being scuppered by the same, is that this is all system dependent.
As has ever been the case in the high end.
 
Sep 17, 2015
286
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Monaco
#73
i'm going to allow Ed or Emile from Taiko Tana to comment on their findings regarding your perspective about cause and effect. I don't want to mess up the explanation. they have an AVI unit in house and pursuant to my concerns have inspected the power supply. and obviously I have 2 stock Herzan's; a TS-150 and TS-140, and 2 Taiko Tana TS-140 & 150 units here to compare. i'm not disputing in any way what you are hearing. the issue is the root cause of why active mode in your NDW23 is not resulting in the performance boost under the AS-2000 that i'm hearing here. and I can tell you i'm definitely hearing exactly a raw realism boost in active mode for both my SGM server and NVS turntable.
Continuing the story, we first brought the AVI 200 with great enthusiasm about a year ago, and tried to get it to perform well for several pieces of digital gear on a Panzerholz rack built around the AVI's. We were not very successful for a number of reasons which we believe to be the following
- the coupling of the AVI to the base, and the vibration characteristics of the base are very influential in audio applications
- coupling of the AVI to the top supporting plate is likewise extremely important for audio
- we later learnt that the quality of the LPS in terms of ripple, isolation and vibration control is very influential
- its really important to avoid complex feedback and resonance of medium and high frequencies between the various structures and components

We believe the design and implementation of the Tana package is successful for the following reasons
- The cast aluminium chassis of the TS series provides a rigid, stable, and problematic resonance free base for the transducers
- Having the the table sit on 40 mm of Panzerholz significantly attenuates the amount of MF and HF feeding from the floor to into the table and its motion sensors and improves their low frequency performance and the "quality" of the anti-vibration signal going to the transducers
- the sandwich construction of steel under plate, 10 mm aluminium and then 10 mm Panzerholz damping of the table's top plate for MF and HF vibrations works well
- The effectiveness of the power supply from the point of view of low ripple, fast response, RF isolation, and vibration control

After reviewing the AVI units, the workstation support table, and the AVI power supply, we think it's pretty difficult to come up with a package built around those pieces that could equal or surpass the performance of a right sized TS package
 
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PeterA

Active Member
Dec 7, 2011
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#74
Looks like some nice stuff Mike. It would be interesting to hear your observations with both active on and off (herzan still powered up). I’m inclined to use active for power supplies only. I think active works against the music with some analog playback devices as I have experienced. The music is pleasant but more homogenized in a sense...it loses some of that raw realism.
Christian, when you turn on the active circuit with no music playing but the turntable spinning, I assume you see the unit's lights blinking indicating that the sensors are responding to vibrations. From where do you think those vibrations originate? If the music is off, they can't be airborn vibrations from the speaker, so either they are coming down from the AS2000's spinning platter, the motor, or some combination, OR, they are coming up from the ground, through the stand and into the AVI mechanism, OR a combination of both. I would be surprised if vibrations generated within the AS2000 or its motor would find their way down to the top surface of your active platform, especially since the platter is on an airbearing.

If the vibrations are from the ground, then the sensors and actuators are attenuating them and in theory the top surface should be motion free, and the table should then not be effected. It should "think" that it is on a stable, motionless platform. Obviously this is not the case, because you hear a decrease in sound quality in active mode.

Mike, will you be exploring if there is a TS version large enough to try with the Taiko Tana modifications that would fit under the AS2000?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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#75
this morning my listening continues, and no doubt this is a step up over the NVS on the Taiko Tana TS-150.

I asked Ed about why this the Taiko Tana TS-140 is so clearly better than the TS-150 version for the NVS. he said that it's to do with better transducer performance since the load is properly located over them and the distribution of weight on the top plate relative to those transducers, which is logical. and likely the heavy NVS on the smaller top plate of the TS-150 causes some top plate flex with the feet hanging over the edge. our ears can pick up on the effects those type things. he added that the TS-150 and TS-140 versions have indistinguishable performance and with the same weight load distributed in a comparably favorable distribution the performance would be very similar.
 
Sep 17, 2015
286
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Monaco
#76
Christian, when you turn on the active circuit with no music playing but the turntable spinning, I assume you see the unit's lights blinking indicating that the sensors are responding to vibrations. From where do you think those vibrations originate? If the music is off, they can't be airborn vibrations from the speaker, so either they are coming down from the AS2000's spinning platter, the motor, or some combination, OR, they are coming up from the ground, through the stand and into the AVI mechanism, OR a combination of both. I would be surprised if vibrations generated within the AS2000 or its motor would find their way down to the top surface of your active platform, especially since the platter is on an airbearing.

If the vibrations are from the ground, then the sensors and actuators are attenuating them and in theory the top surface should be motion free, and the table should then not be effected. It should "think" that it is on a stable, motionless platform. Obviously this is not the case, because you hear a decrease in sound quality in active mode.

Mike, will you be exploring if there is a TS version large enough to try with the Taiko Tana modifications that would fit under the AS2000?
Peter

The sensors in the AVI units are picking up the full spectrum of vibrations coming through the floor, into the worktable frame and on to the steel pieces of the brackets that hold the AVI units. The analog circuits in the AVI's using the filter and control algorithms of electronics to deliver vibration spectrum optimized actuation signals to the transducers in the AVI's. The geometry, construction, mechanical properties of the steel, resonance and time decay of the resonance of the worktable interacting with the weight of the AS-2000 all have an influence on the actual vibration pattern seen by the sensors in the AVI. The more complex the vibration pattern, the tougher the job the electronics has to deliver a good sounding signal to the transducers.

The power supply to the AVI with the light metal sides and conventionally mounted PCB's make the output voltage and current supply being delivered to the transducers quite sensitive to both ground and airborn vibrations hitting the unit

Music uncorrelated vibrations from the power supply raise the noise floor. Music correlated vibrations from the power supply results in smearing of the sound. Neither are good.

Rockitman's AVI test's test show that the SQ improvement delivered by the 35 dB reduction in sub 120 Hz vibration is swamped by the higher noise floor in the frequencies above 120 Hz and the smearing that is occurring in the MF and HF range which is being delivered by the "industrial" power supply
 

PeterA

Active Member
Dec 7, 2011
4,881
12
38
North Shore of Boston
#77
Peter

The sensors in the AVI units are picking up the full spectrum of vibrations coming through the floor, into the worktable frame and on to the steel pieces of the brackets that hold the AVI units. The analog circuits in the AVI's using the filter and control algorithms of electronics to deliver vibration spectrum optimized actuation signals to the transducers in the AVI's. The geometry, construction, mechanical properties of the steel, resonance and time decay of the resonance of the worktable interacting with the weight of the AS-2000 all have an influence on the actual vibration pattern seen by the sensors in the AVI. The more complex the vibration pattern, the tougher the job the electronics has to deliver a good sounding signal to the transducers.

The power supply to the AVI with the light metal sides and conventionally mounted PCB's make the output voltage and current supply being delivered to the transducers quite sensitive to both ground and airborn vibrations hitting the unit

Music uncorrelated vibrations from the power supply raise the noise floor. Music correlated vibrations from the power supply results in smearing of the sound. Neither are good.

Rockitman's AVI test's test show that the SQ improvement delivered by the 35 dB reduction in sub 120 Hz vibration is swamped by the higher noise floor in the frequencies above 120 Hz and the smearing that is occurring in the MF and HF range which is being delivered by the "industrial" power supply
Thank you for your reply, EuroDriver. So, if I understand it properly, the issue is one of implementation and the specific parts quality of the AVI units, and not one of the active isolation technology itself. If the unit were made more immune to environmental vibrations, then the signal to the sensors would be less corrupt and they would function better. If this is correct, then I suppose someone could modify the AVI unit to meet High End audio standards. Are you suggesting that with proper modifications and improvements, that the AVI units could indeed improve the SQ under a turntable like the AS2000? Also, are there any table top units in the TS series that could support the weight of something like the AS2000?

I am wondering about all of the effort needed to make something like this work in this application. And if one were able to do it, would it actually improve the performance of something like the AS2000? Perhaps that is a question that can not yet be answered.
 

spiritofmusic

Member Sponsor
Jun 13, 2013
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#78
Peter, shouldn’t we just take David’s word, and Christian’s first hand experience, for what it is?
That is, that active is not suited to the AS-2000.
 
Sep 17, 2015
286
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Monaco
#79
Peter, shouldn’t we just take David’s word, and Christian’s first hand experience, for what it is?
That is, that active is not suited to the AS-2000.
Marc,

What Christian's experience shows is that AVI's supported by that particular steel worktable, and fed by the standard industrial LPS which is neither ground noise nor airborne controlled delivers a muddy MH and HF

I think we can be pretty confident that scaling up from Mikes NVS on Tana experience that a Tana cast chassis anti-vibration unit with ground and airborne noise controlled LPS can deliver a significantly positive result
 

spiritofmusic

Member Sponsor
Jun 13, 2013
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#80
We’ll be fascinated to read about it. For all the time I’ve read David’s comments, he doesn’t mince words or easily change his mind. He’s beyond adamant the AS is not suited to being on an active platform, and since he’ll be in the room with Mike when the install happens, we’ll hear two takes on Tana under the AS.
 

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