Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Steve Vu

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2020
195
122
113
Thx. I asked if Steve had an Extreme, as this is the Extreme thread, so that I would be able to assist with his issue if possible. Steve's post seemed to infer that it was Extreme related, as he said it was the same issue as the other user with the issue, who has Roon connection issues running on an Extreme.
No, I do not have Extreme and I only want to say that I also get that problem. This is not problem of Extreme or any other music servers. I never say that.

I cannot access Roon on iOS but I still can access Roon on Android. So I just share my experience to @Koegz.

I think all of you is too sensitive. Let's just relax and enjoy ourselves.
 

Steve Vu

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2020
195
122
113
My last post about this.

He has no interest in actually contributing to this community of Extreme owners.

His post the other day was “You should not compare Taiko with Wadax. Wadax is clearly in a different class from Taiko and all the other music servers. It is also the reason for the high price of Wadax.”
Yes, I said that but you should not give the casual remark like that.

If Taiko can be better than Wadax, I would definitely buy one. Why not? I changed from Dcs to Wadax. So I also can change from Wadax to Taiko if Taiko can be the best in the future.

The life is rather short to be indifferent.
 

Steve Vu

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2020
195
122
113
You have dedicated router and wireless network for audio.
Here it looks like you need to click each of the wireless networks you have listed in your ipad and uncheck automatic connection (if this are your networks ) for all others except ofthe one that has roon.

I have 4 wireless networks home and if I forget to do that it connects to the other networks without notice.
I checked networks carefully but I do not know why I cannot access Roon on iOS. If I want to use iPad, I have to restart my music server every day. However, if I use Android, it is ok.
 

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
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Question to Emile who proposed longer UTP ethernet cables.
What length should be optimal in your opinion ?
10, 15, 20, 50 meters?
is the cat 6e still as good as the 5e in your opinion or should we stick to 5e?

Not proposed, suggest to use as a reference. The length doesn’t matter much, shorter generally brighter, longer softer, the difference is very minor on unshielded, on shielded the length makes a bigger difference. cat5 or 6 doesn’t matter, unshielded or disconnected shield does, if disconnected preferably at the server side, but still suggest to atleast listen to unshielded as your reference!
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,211
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United States
Sort of lost among the rave reviews for the new Extreme OS is something of major interest. Unless I am mistaken, the fact that there are several USB files to choose from depending on one's DAC represents what I would suggest is a sea change from any previous efforts in which a server (from any manufacturer) has a given output regardless of the DAC which it is driving. Taiko has now "tuned" their device output to best interact with a particular DAC using 4 different algorithms. So the obvious question to ask, it seems to me, is what underlies this very DAC-tailored approach? If output 1 is better than output 4 for DAC A, but output 4 is better than output 1 for DAC B, etc., , surely there is an explanation that we can understand that helps explain the unique approach that Taiko has chosen. . Put another way, we know everyone's system is different. But the fact that Taiko is exploiting this in optimizing their software is novel, as far as I can tell. Any technical fundamentals to help explain the approach would be most appreciated
 

2ndLiner

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2015
297
603
335
Indeed! I’d say we want to avoid correlations, as correlations is information and that we don’t need/want

another video to illustrate why synchronisation of coupled resonances might be best avoided:


Another famous example are the military parades that break strides on bridges.

getting off track though, apologies!!!!
Unfortunately, I am much less technically inclined and developed than many who post here. Hence, the questions that came to mind when watching this flip-flopping bridge are, what the heck was that guy doing driving out there and why bring your dog and then leave him there?!
 
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Levitator

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2020
186
306
125
Brisbane, Australia
As Emile has suggested, make sure you try an unshielded basic cat5 / cat 6 Ethernet cable in your system, particularly if you are currently using an ethernet cable that has filtering applied.

Last night just for kicks I thought I’d plug my most basic cat 5e cable that I could find into the Extreme in place of a ’high-end’ Ethernet cable (I won’t mention the brand) that has filtering built into it. I was quite shocked to be honest how good it sounded - I need to do more listening but there is no question that the music seemed to have more energy and there didn’t appear to be anything obvious missing. I’ve also got a SOTM switch in my system which I haven’t played around with yet but I’d encourage everyone to at least try what Emile has suggested and you just might be surprised (and save yourself a few bucks as well!).
 

heebrog

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2018
131
51
135
Perth, WA
'use max buffer size' and 'use power of 2 buffer sizes' are set to Yes <--- Better disable those, those are not default values!
Hi Emile. Is this Roon setting "No" only for TotalDAC or for everyone?
 

Kris

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2019
956
975
183
As far as I see the Lan1 is recommended in extereme,
but in my case this is NOT the one marked twicked.
So the main recommendation is to use the one marked twicked or not twicked ?
 

jelt2359

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2020
241
255
133
39
As far as I see the Lan1 is recommended in extereme,
but in my case this is NOT the one marked twicked.
So the main recommendation is to use the one marked twicked or not twicked ?
I’m in the same situation. I tried LAN1 vs tweaked Ethernet (LAN2) and while the difference is small and I can’t definitively say which is better, I still prefer LAN2, but wouldn’t sweat using LAN1 or 2.
 

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
4,315
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taikoaudio.com
As far as I see the Lan1 is recommended in extereme,
but in my case this is NOT the one marked twicked.
So the main recommendation is to use the one marked twicked or not twicked ?
They are configured the same now. LAN1 is theoretically superior, but the difference is really small.
 
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Kris

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2019
956
975
183
They are configured the same now. LAN1 is theoretically superior, but the difference is really small.
Thank you Emile !
yes I do prefer the lan1 by significant margin, Here in my room the difference is very noticable .
All I can do is to cofirm your theory works excellent in practice !
 

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
4,315
13,464
1,925
The Netherlands
taikoaudio.com
Sort of lost among the rave reviews for the new Extreme OS is something of major interest. Unless I am mistaken, the fact that there are several USB files to choose from depending on one's DAC represents what I would suggest is a sea change from any previous efforts in which a server (from any manufacturer) has a given output regardless of the DAC which it is driving. Taiko has now "tuned" their device output to best interact with a particular DAC using 4 different algorithms. So the obvious question to ask, it seems to me, is what underlies this very DAC-tailored approach? If output 1 is better than output 4 for DAC A, but output 4 is better than output 1 for DAC B, etc., , surely there is an explanation that we can understand that helps explain the unique approach that Taiko has chosen. . Put another way, we know everyone's system is different. But the fact that Taiko is exploiting this in optimizing their software is novel, as far as I can tell. Any technical fundamentals to help explain the approach would be most appreciated

Hi Marty,

There is a lot of history behind this. We embarked on a custom USB driver project back in august 2020 already. Initially this was fuelled by the desire to have a universal USB driver as, running a Windows Operating System required the installation of a driver for each individual DAC and as the Extreme was selling in much higher then anticipated numbers this was creating a substantial support load. This is not an issue you have with a Linux operating system, likely one of the reasons most servers are Linux based, as you then have a standard driver which can drive virtually every DAC already. There is also a generic Windows driver, but we have removed it from the OS as, it being generic, is not optimal, and there is a very noticeable difference in sound quality if the DAC is being driven by a driver tailored to its specific USB implementation. This subsequently implies that the USB implementation differs amongst DAC makers, which it does. On top of that these drivers are created to work reliably on every windows computer, be it new, old, slow, fast, bloated with software, short on memory, etc.

So began the effort of developing a driver capable of driving multiple USB implementations, but we also embarked on the TAS project, where we developed a software player and the USB card project with its associated controller and firmware development. Combined this led to an avalanche of discoveries on what influences sound quality in what way, as each of these developments contained a lot of trial & error listening to different pieces of code, software, firmware and hardware interaction. A lot of this often made no sense at all and had us scratching our heads for months. However if you just keep running different experiments and meticulously document the results it eventually starts to make sense and you start finding answers.

So what we just released is the culmination of 18 months of research & development, where the USB driver and accompanied Operating System and software playback optimizations turned into something entirely different then what its original intend was. The USB profiles are there to optimize the Roon playback software to USB driver interface, for TAS the USB4 profile is always technically superior although personal preference could lead to you preferring a different profile, interesting in itself as technically optimal does not always translate directly into user preferred. The USB driver itself now automatically adjusts to the different DAC/Vendor specific USB implementations. We can now also rather quickly identify errors in DAC USB implementations which we can compensate for in the USB driver, as some of our customers have already noticed as we implemented a few corrections for specific DAC brands already this week (I'm shying away from naming these brands, hope you don't mind).

A few remarks I'd like to make are that 1) imho it's somewhat unfair to now label TAS as the underdog as a part of TAS is now integrated into the USB driver so Roon can take advantage of it. So when you are running Roon, you are listening to a piece of TAS as well, and it would not sound this good without. 2) This USB driver and accompanying Operating System environment are very specific to the Extreme, it does not run reliably, nor does it even give you the same sound quality benefits, on other hardware and software. We can therefor not port it to the Sound Galleries branded 2015/EVO models, nor can we make it available to the DIY world. Early in this post I mentioned that the Vendor supplied USB drivers are designed to run reliably on every windows computer, that does not apply at all to our USB driver and it even does some things which are generally considered to be technically impossible.

While at it I might as well address another part of the update which has sparked some discussion being the network side of things. Similar to the USB driver project this has quite some history, we have started working on designing a switch even earlier, in april 2020, with the first well working prototype finished at the start of 2021. We did choose to not release this switch as it did not actually solve the "problem" beyond just "sounding better". A second iteration which was finished in June 2021 and marked the first time we managed to achieve better sound quality with the network connected over disconnected. This led to new insights of how networking influences sound quality, and we realised that this could be partially addressed in software, but could not be fully solved in software alone. We also realised that what we were doing was simply the wrong approach. Obviously we could have just released that switch, and I'm sure everybody would have been very pleased with its performance, but it would still not address all the variables, and would still be susceptible to external influences. What we are looking at is a ISP <-> modem/router <-> interconnect <-> switch <-> interconnect <-> network card <-> operating system interaction, every individual part of which effecting the resultant sound (intentionally leaving out quality here). The audiophile way is to just replace as much of all of that as possible with pieces designed with sound quality in mind. The variables become almost infinite and significantly worse then the variables surrounding the server <-> DAC interface. I can tell you we have a full solution on the way now. Part of the software solution is in this update. The by now 4th iteration of the "switch" (it's actually no longer really a switch, but we'll keep the details to ourselves till we can start shipping) and the accompanying network card can hopefully start shipping just after the Munich high-end show in May. The "hopefully" here is due to the current global supply shortage situation. This is a vastly superior solution to what we are working with today which I would label as a "Band-Aid". These will again only work well with the Extreme and be therefor only available to Extreme owners. However we will also release a Router near the end of this year which will work for and be available to everybody, though Extreme owners will be served first. The reason why we will make this available to everybody is a matter of pricing, the amount of engineering going into this router turns this into a 7 figure development cost project on its own, next to a sizeable layout and parts count and cost, this means it would become very expensive if we would make it exclusive to Extreme owners. Will you still need that switch with that, for Extreme owners the answer is yes, for non Extreme owners probably no, the why will become evident when we launch.

Circling back to today and this past weeks update, you now have, implemented in software, very high resilience against varying network traffic / load. What you also have is a much lower noise floor in general, which will expose more of what you priory did with tweaking your network. Often tweaks to your network which sounded better to you, actually diminish technical performance. You will get rock solid technical performance with standard network cabling, designed to do the job its supposed to do, and a standard switch which could be necessary if the ports on your router/modem are not switched or inferior by other means. Routers/modems are often designed to be as cheap as possible being sold in large quantity to heavily competing Internet Service Providers who often pick the cheapest thing doing the job to be able to offer the cheapest possible internet subscription. This all does not imply that your audiophile grade switch is inferior, it may very well enhance performance, but you should be aware that some of these cut transfer speeds considerable, we've seen up to 90% reductions in transfer speed and some even cause packet losses which are in fact highly unusual in a small home network environment. On top of that some apply clever noise modulations which may sound better in systems where that is masked by your front-end noise floor. We do therefor strongly recommend to re-evaluate your network setup using basic non audiophile network components as a reference. If your audiophile switch or cable does sound better to you, great. If it diminishes performance now, you have an expensive component sitting there lowering your performance..
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,483
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1,410

SwissTom

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2021
194
491
70
Hi Marty,

There is a lot of history behind this. We embarked on a custom USB driver project back in august 2020 already. Initially this was fuelled by the desire to have a universal USB driver as, running a Windows Operating System required the installation of a driver for each individual DAC and as the Extreme was selling in much higher then anticipated numbers this was creating a substantial support load. This is not an issue you have with a Linux operating system, likely one of the reasons most servers are Linux based, as you then have a standard driver which can drive virtually every DAC already. There is also a generic Windows driver, but we have removed it from the OS as, it being generic, is not optimal, and there is a very noticeable difference in sound quality if the DAC is being driven by a driver tailored to its specific USB implementation. This subsequently implies that the USB implementation differs amongst DAC makers, which it does. On top of that these drivers are created to work reliably on every windows computer, be it new, old, slow, fast, bloated with software, short on memory, etc.

So began the effort of developing a driver capable of driving multiple USB implementations, but we also embarked on the TAS project, where we developed a software player and the USB card project with its associated controller and firmware development. Combined this led to an avalanche of discoveries on what influences sound quality in what way, as each of these developments contained a lot of trial & error listening to different pieces of code, software, firmware and hardware interaction. A lot of this often made no sense at all and had us scratching our heads for months. However if you just keep running different experiments and meticulously document the results it eventually starts to make sense and you start finding answers.

So what we just released is the culmination of 18 months of research & development, where the USB driver and accompanied Operating System and software playback optimizations turned into something entirely different then what its original intend was. The USB profiles are there to optimize the Roon playback software to USB driver interface, for TAS the USB4 profile is always technically superior although personal preference could lead to you preferring a different profile, interesting in itself as technically optimal does not always translate directly into user preferred. The USB driver itself now automatically adjusts to the different DAC/Vendor specific USB implementations. We can now also rather quickly identify errors in DAC USB implementations which we can compensate for in the USB driver, as some of our customers have already noticed as we implemented a few corrections for specific DAC brands already this week (I'm shying away from naming these brands, hope you don't mind).

A few remarks I'd like to make are that 1) imho it's somewhat unfair to now label TAS as the underdog as a part of TAS is now integrated into the USB driver so Roon can take advantage of it. So when you are running Roon, you are listening to a piece of TAS as well, and it would not sound this good without. 2) This USB driver and accompanying Operating System environment are very specific to the Extreme, it does not run reliably, nor does it even give you the same sound quality benefits, on other hardware and software. We can therefor not port it to the Sound Galleries branded 2015/EVO models, nor can we make it available to the DIY world. Early in this post I mentioned that the Vendor supplied USB drivers are designed to run reliably on every windows computer, that does not apply at all to our USB driver and it even does some things which are generally considered to be technically impossible.

While at it I might as well address another part of the update which has sparked some discussion being the network side of things. Similar to the USB driver project this has quite some history, we have started working on designing a switch even earlier, in april 2020, with the first well working prototype finished at the start of 2021. We did choose to not release this switch as it did not actually solve the "problem" beyond just "sounding better". A second iteration which was finished in June 2021 and marked the first time we managed to achieve better sound quality with the network connected over disconnected. This led to new insights of how networking influences sound quality, and we realised that this could be partially addressed in software, but could not be fully solved in software alone. We also realised that what we were doing was simply the wrong approach. Obviously we could have just released that switch, and I'm sure everybody would have been very pleased with its performance, but it would still not address all the variables, and would still be susceptible to external influences. What we are looking at is a ISP <-> modem/router <-> interconnect <-> switch <-> interconnect <-> network card <-> operating system interaction, every individual part of which effecting the resultant sound (intentionally leaving out quality here). The audiophile way is to just replace as much of all of that as possible with pieces designed with sound quality in mind. The variables become almost infinite and significantly worse then the variables surrounding the server <-> DAC interface. I can tell you we have a full solution on the way now. Part of the software solution is in this update. The by now 4th iteration of the "switch" (it's actually no longer really a switch, but we'll keep the details to ourselves till we can start shipping) and the accompanying network card can hopefully start shipping just after the Munich high-end show in May. The "hopefully" here is due to the current global supply shortage situation. This is a vastly superior solution to what we are working with today which I would label as a "Band-Aid". These will again only work well with the Extreme and be therefor only available to Extreme owners. However we will also release a Router near the end of this year which will work for and be available to everybody, though Extreme owners will be served first. The reason why we will make this available to everybody is a matter of pricing, the amount of engineering going into this router turns this into a 7 figure development cost project on its own, next to a sizeable layout and parts count and cost, this means it would become very expensive if we would make it exclusive to Extreme owners. Will you still need that switch with that, for Extreme owners the answer is yes, for non Extreme owners probably no, the why will become evident when we launch.

Circling back to today and this past weeks update, you now have, implemented in software, very high resilience against varying network traffic / load. What you also have is a much lower noise floor in general, which will expose more of what you priory did with tweaking your network. Often tweaks to your network which sounded better to you, actually diminish technical performance. You will get rock solid technical performance with standard network cabling, designed to do the job its supposed to do, and a standard switch which could be necessary if the ports on your router/modem are not switched or inferior by other means. Routers/modems are often designed to be as cheap as possible being sold in large quantity to heavily competing Internet Service Providers who often pick the cheapest thing doing the job to be able to offer the cheapest possible internet subscription. This all does not imply that your audiophile grade switch is inferior, it may very well enhance performance, but you should be aware that some of these cut transfer speeds considerable, we've seen up to 90% reductions in transfer speed and some even cause packet losses which are in fact highly unusual in a small home network environment. On top of that some apply clever noise modulations which may sound better in systems where that is masked by your front-end noise floor. We do therefor strongly recommend to re-evaluate your network setup using basic non audiophile network components as a reference. If your audiophile switch or cable does sound better to you, great. If it diminishes performance now, you have an expensive component sitting there lowering your performance..

Hello Emile,

Thank you for the detailed development's history :)

The technical choices and the approach of Taiko Audio are fascinating, especially the part related to software.

This pragmatic and, above all, systemic approach to the problem is quite unusual in the world of high-end audio.

I do not doubt that your new products will be a success.


Thomas
 
Last edited:

Ultrafast69

VIP/Donor
Aug 27, 2018
222
227
385
Seattle, WA
www.audio-ultra.com
Taiko post 9675 makes things super clear
 

Cyrus

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2018
99
120
138
There is a lot of history behind this.

Emile, thank you so much for sharing everything you did in your above post. I found it incredibly helpful. This level of communication is rarely seen from manufacturers and owners. High Honor and Distinction!!!
 

MarkusBarkus

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2021
1,015
1,674
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...I bought my Extreme a little over a year ago, after reading about it for a while. One of the key factors in my decision was my perception that the Taiko Team was serious about pushing the ring of influence further out from the server, by better controlling the integration points.

The continuous and virtuous cycle of software optimization is BIG. As was the USB card. The future control points Emile mentioned will further tighten the quality of the overall integration. Bravo.

ISP just send me data according to spec. Electrical utility, send me the juice and I'll clean it up a bit. And Taiko will take it from there.

IMO a tighter end-to-end integration, and a technical "lingua franca" of sorts, across devices, is the best path forward for ensuring the best possible sound. Can't come fast enough for me.
 

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