Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[romaz]

But, I am also wary. The machine is a high end, bespoke PC any way you shake it. That also means that it is a rapidly evolving product. With, say an amplifier or speakers, it is probable that they will remain relevant for years. Look at some of the top amplifiers that were designed 10 years ago. But, with the Taiko, it will inevitably be a dated component in 18 months.

This is very true and you bring up valid points. I had these concerns also but this what convinced me.

First, it's clear Emile is on a unique path. Low phase noise OCXO clocking had become the rage when the Extreme was released to market and yet the Extreme uses no fancy expensive clocks. Not that this concept was foreign to Emile since he told me he used to design and manufacture his own OCXO circuits and even used a very expensive OCXO in his SGM 2015 server, but because he had figured out a better solution. Where just about every other manufacturer was using a low-power, low-noise CPU or FPGA for their bit-perfect music server or streamer, Emile had opted for dual high-power Xeons. While companies like dCS, Aurender, Antipodes, and InnuOS were using motherboards they had designed, Emile went with an off-the-shelf enterprise motherboard. While just about everyone else had opted for some customized variety of Linux, Emile opted for Windows. Because of these choices, I can imagine there were many that chuckled or at the very least were skeptical, until they heard the Extreme and realized it was like nothing they had heard before. Not surprisingly, there are now Extreme copycats that are coming to market but as any Extreme owner knows, the Extreme is not just about hardware but as much about how that hardware is being utilized by the software and with TAS and XDMS, it's also about having full control of the process. In this regard, the Extreme cannot be replicated by anyone else and so as I see it, Emile's only real competition is himself.

Second, the Extreme as it was designed is modular and scalable. Because of the size of the chassis, the Extreme can accommodate just about any size motherboard that comes to market and therefore, just about any CPU. The motherboard currently used has 6 PCIe slots that have low latency access to the dual CPUs allowing for expansion. Since the Extreme's release, we have seen Taiko design and market their own PCIe USB card and Emile has already discussed that a PCIe NIC card will come to market soon. As for internal storage, the new Sabrent 8TB NVMe SSDs are now an option effectively quadrupling the Extreme's storage capabilities. The power supply is scalable as well having seen it accommodate the DC requirements of the USB card. From the software side, we have options like Roon and HQP and that is the benefit of Windows is that we have broad compatibility that makes it far more obsolescence-proof than other operating systems. Unlike Linux where you are forced to use its generic drivers, with the Extreme, we have the option of using Taiko's own ASIO driver. Of course, we now have TAS and soon XDMS and so it's clear that despite how rapidly digital has evolved in the last 2-3 years, the Extreme has also evolved and as I see it, based on what is available on the market today, the Extreme's technical dominance has grown rather than shrunk. In my system, the Extreme is more relevant today than when I first bought it 2 years ago.

 

[Taiko Audio]

The Taiko is a very intriguing product for me. I have read the various posts and it seems to that literally every customer is very happy with their purchase.

But, I am also wary. The machine is a high end, bespoke PC any way you shake it. That also means that it is a rapidly evolving product. With, say an amplifier or speakers, it is probable that they will remain relevant for years. Look at some of the top amplifiers that were designed 10 years ago. But, with the Taiko, it will inevitably be a dated component in 18 months. That is not to say it maybe won't still sound great. But, it will be a technologically outdated component in that time. And, that is part of my conundrum. Am I okay buying a $30,000 component knowing that it has such a short shelf life? This one is challenging. As an enthusiast, I maybe am okay.

Well as of today there are no better performing computer parts, and we do test virtually everything which is released. Newer is not necessarily better when it comes to Sound Quality. Obviously the dual XEON CPUs utilised in the Extreme are massive overkill for audio playback, but they happen to be the best "sounding CPUs" we have come across, down to the specific CPU model, including the motherboard, somewhat of an unique occurrence, we were surprised when they came out how much better they are then others, with Sound Quality in mind, and that still holds today. The Intel/AMD hardware roadmaps do not look that promising for potential Sound Quality uplifts, we don't need faster CPUs or RAM, we need a specific combination of features we can utilize at a beneficial power consumption versus speed profile.

 

[Muni]

I think we would all choose to demo at home, if possible. But not so easy to do with the Extreme and so I did the next best thing I could think of. I flew to Amsterdam and then took a 2 hour train to Hengelo and listened to the Extreme at Emile's place. It wasn't the same environment as my home but I told myself Emile's demo had to at least blow me away for there to be a way forward.

Coming from DIY, I felt I had a good sense of what certain components would bring, especially a high power CPU, an Optane OS drive, carefully curated memory, a finely tuned OS, a no compromise power supply, etc. I brought in many commercial servers/streamers into my home from various manufacturers over the years from the likes of TotalDAC, dCS, SOtM, Sonore, Baetis, Antipodes, InnuOS, Aurender, and others and I found in each instance that I could build a server that I preferred more and my last DIY effort especially had set a very high bar. And so I arrived to Emile's place with unbelievably lofty expectations. To add to the drama, Emile was using Focal speakers with beryllium tweeters which can sound fatiguingly bright in some setups. He was also using Audionet electronics which I demo'd in my home and I found sounded a touch dry for my tastes. I was prepared for an analytical presentation and yes, what I heard was extremely resolving and transparent but was surprised by how balanced and musical it all sounded. It was wickedly fast and explosive with blistering transients but it also had the ability to sound very delicate, fragile, and nuanced. It did not sound bright or analytical at all. While I heard more than just the Extreme that day, perhaps more impressive was how Emile made all of these pieces sound good together and it gave me a solid sense of the sound signature that he is after with the Extreme, probably better than if I had heard the Extreme in my own home. It became an easy decision at that point, I placed an order for my own Extreme.

Ultimately, no one really knows how a component will sound in their room until that component arrives but I'm sure you're aware that the Extreme comes with a satisfaction guarantee. If there is a takeaway from reading the hundreds of pages on this thread, it is the fact that Extreme owners come from all over the globe, some are technophobes while others are computer IT experts, some listen to headphones and others listen to speakers, some are heavily entrenched in tubes while others are more enamored by transistors, many are deeply rooted in analog, and we vary in our belief of what DAC is best but we have all decided that there is nothing else quite like an Extreme.

I like very much the way you described the Extreme while being at Emiles place - I am also one of the crazy ones that bought the Extreme unheard - convinced by the special quality of this forum - which made it easy for me to decide to buy it without listening beforehand - I have it since 6 weeks and am very happy - it sounds like you described it, Romaz - well done!

 

[bryans]

OK I posted the question about purchasing an Extreme without listening to it. I feel I need to clarify something. Believe me if I spend this kind of money on ANY server without listening to it, I'm going to like it. I truly believe if I order a Taiko I will love it. This is the same as if I purchase an Aurender or anything else at these prices. I believe all of these "high-end" servers are outstanding. But I can not say I will like a Taiko over an Aurender or others simply by reading comments on a forum. This is not to say one is better than the other, it comes down to personal taste.

Based on the many responses, it seems the vast majority has ordered theirs without listening to it. Again there is nothing wrong with this and better yet all appear to love it.

Thanks everyone.

 

[EuroDriver]

a photo sent to us by one of our dealers in Asia a few weeks ago

 

[Levitator]

OK I posted the question about purchasing an Extreme without listening to it. I feel I need to clarify something. Believe me if I spend this kind of money on ANY server without listening to it, I'm going to like it. I truly believe if I order a Taiko I will love it. This is the same as if I purchase an Aurender or anything else at these prices. I believe all of these "high-end" servers are outstanding. But I can not say I will like a Taiko over an Aurender or others simply by reading comments on a forum. This is not to say one is better than the other, it comes down to personal taste.

Based on the many responses, it seems the vast majority has ordered theirs without listening to it. Again there is nothing wrong with this and better yet all appear to love it.

Thanks everyone.

That’s a very reasonable point you raise which I can relate to - I was one of the fortunate few that was able to demo the Taiko in my own system before purchasing and put it head to head against what I was using at the time. Whilst the price point was much higher, it was worth the investment for me not just because of the improvement in SQ from where I was at, but what I felt was to come in the way of improvements and evolution by being part of the Taiko world. The support has also been second to none which I really do value…

I do hope you get the opportunity to somehow demo the Taiko in your system and see whether it does for you what it has now done for many others. Either way, enjoy the journey!

 

[pk_LA]

This is very true and you bring up valid points. I had these concerns also but this what convinced me.

First, it's clear Emile is on a unique path. Low phase noise OCXO clocking had become the rage when the Extreme was released to market and yet the Extreme uses no fancy expensive clocks. Not that this concept was foreign to Emile since he told me he used to design and manufacture his own OCXO circuits and even used a very expensive OCXO in his SGM 2015 server, but because he had figured out a better solution. Where just about every other manufacturer was using a low-power, low-noise CPU or FPGA for their bit-perfect music server or streamer, Emile had opted for dual high-power Xeons. While companies like dCS, Aurender, Antipodes, and InnuOS were using motherboards they had designed, Emile went with an off-the-shelf enterprise motherboard. While just about everyone else had opted for some customized variety of Linux, Emile opted for Windows. Because of these choices, I can imagine there were many that chuckled or at the very least were skeptical, until they heard the Extreme and realized it was like nothing they had heard before. Not surprisingly, there are now Extreme copycats that are coming to market but as any Extreme owner knows, the Extreme is not just about hardware but as much about how that hardware is being utilized by the software and with TAS and XDMS, it's also about having full control of the process. In this regard, the Extreme cannot be replicated by anyone else and so as I see it, Emile's only real competition is himself.

Second, the Extreme as it was designed is modular and scalable. Because of the size of the chassis, the Extreme can accommodate just about any size motherboard that comes to market and therefore, just about any CPU. The motherboard currently used has 6 PCIe slots that have low latency access to the dual CPUs allowing for expansion. Since the Extreme's release, we have seen Taiko design and market their own PCIe USB card and Emile has already discussed that a PCIe NIC card will come to market soon. As for internal storage, the new Sabrent 8TB NVMe SSDs are now an option effectively quadrupling the Extreme's storage capabilities. The power supply is scalable as well having seen it accommodate the DC requirements of the USB card. From the software side, we have options like Roon and HQP and that is the benefit of Windows is that we have broad compatibility that makes it far more obsolescence-proof than other operating systems. Unlike Linux where you are forced to use its generic drivers, with the Extreme, we have the option of using Taiko's own ASIO driver. Of course, we now have TAS and soon XDMS and so it's clear that despite how rapidly digital has evolved in the last 2-3 years, the Extreme has also evolved and as I see it, based on what is available on the market today, the Extreme's technical dominance has grown rather than shrunk. In my system, the Extreme is more relevant today than when I first bought it 2 years ago.

Thank you very much for your reply! What you're saying feels right. The critical point being that 'latest tech' is maybe less critical than the most appropriate for the job.

 

[pk_LA]

View attachment 87153

a photo sent to us by one of our dealers in Asia a few weeks ago

I know the Aurender stuff sounds very good. I say, "...very good," as opposed to great because I have not been able to A|B it. In other words, it might very well be GREAT. But, the fact that they roll their own software feels like a bridge too far. The UI/UX is inferior to Roon. I just wish they would focus their resources on making great hardware and partner with someone like Roon for the UI part.

 

[pk_LA]

I know the Aurender stuff sounds very good. I say, "...very good," as opposed to great because I have not been able to A|B it. In other words, it might very well be GREAT. But, the fact that they roll their own software feels like a bridge too far. The UI/UX is inferior to Roon. I just wish they would focus their resources on making great hardware and partner with someone like Roon for the UI part.

My post comes off declarative - apologize for that. It is merely an opinion.

 

[romaz]

OK I posted the question about purchasing an Extreme without listening to it. I feel I need to clarify something. Believe me if I spend this kind of money on ANY server without listening to it, I'm going to like it. I truly believe if I order a Taiko I will love it. This is the same as if I purchase an Aurender or anything else at these prices. I believe all of these "high-end" servers are outstanding. But I can not say I will like a Taiko over an Aurender or others simply by reading comments on a forum. This is not to say one is better than the other, it comes down to personal taste.

Based on the many responses, it seems the vast majority has ordered theirs without listening to it. Again there is nothing wrong with this and better yet all appear to love it.

Thanks everyone.

I think that this depends on your experience and what standard of quality you have already heard. If you're coming from a MacBook Pro or Windows laptop running Roon, you will probably be impressed by almost anything but if you've already experienced the best offerings from Aurender or you've invested $100k into your turntable, it might be more difficult to impress you.

One of the advantages of DIY is that there is the opportunity to see how individual components within a music server contribute to the overall sound. Many assume that there is no quieter power source than a battery but having played around with various battery supplies, this is simply not true and batteries have some other serious issues. Because the chemical reactions that take place within a battery cell take time, batteries often have latency issues and so battery circuits can sound slow, smeared, and bloated. Until the Extreme, popular thinking among most music server or streamer manufacturers for bit-perfect playback was to use a low power CPU because they generate less noise. In my own DIY journey, independent of Emile's findings, I found higher power CPUs to result in improved dynamics and sound staging. Through discussions with Emile, it eventually became clear that higher powered CPUs improved latency resulting more easily in a faster, more lively, less bloated, and less smeared sound. As you listen to something like Aurender's flagship W20SE which uses batteries to power its audio circuitry and also uses a low power CPU, these character traits are there. Having had that unit here in my home, even compared against my DIY server which is not as good as the Extreme, that Aurender sounded slow, bloated, and smeared. It also lacked the dynamic capabilities of my server and sounded sleepy in comparison. The Aurender dealer who was at my house and had the chance to hear both units side by side concluded my high power server is for those who prefer a "live" presentation which can be fatiguing while the Aurender is for those who want a more laid back sound where you can listen all day long. I'm not sure I quite agreed with his statement since I never found my high power server to sound fatiguing but I also understood it was probably the best he could think of to say to the group of people assembled that day. The dealer assumed that because I told him I was using a PC that I had built myself that I would be easily wowed by the Aurender but it was quite clear to everyone in the room that comparatively, the W20SE was underwhelming and did not have the same engagement as my server.

The point of all this is while I haven't heard everything out there, if someone tells me their expensive server is using the most elaborate power supply in the world, proprietary optical isolation, and an expensive OCXO but also using a NUC internally, I already know it's just not physically possible for that server to do what the Extreme can do.

As you make your own decision, it would be good for you to experience as many options as possible. I know in my case, it was not difficult to audition an Aurender. If the budget is there for the Extreme and if your quest is for the best possible music server, one that can scale and evolve and comes with responsive personalized service from its manufacturer, then you probably will want to figure out some way to audition the Extreme, even through purchase, otherwise, like me, you will be haunted by the thought that the grass is probably greener elsewhere.

 

[Muni]

OK I posted the question about purchasing an Extreme without listening to it. I feel I need to clarify something. Believe me if I spend this kind of money on ANY server without listening to it, I'm going to like it. I truly believe if I order a Taiko I will love it. This is the same as if I purchase an Aurender or anything else at these prices. I believe all of these "high-end" servers are outstanding. But I can not say I will like a Taiko over an Aurender or others simply by reading comments on a forum. This is not to say one is better than the other, it comes down to personal taste.

Based on the many responses, it seems the vast majority has ordered theirs without listening to it. Again there is nothing wrong with this and better yet all appear to love it.

Thanks everyone.

sorry but it doesn't lead anyone anywhere who has to be persuaded to do something he doesn't want to do - for me the thread has more to offer than that and speaks for itself....

 

[Christiaan Punter]

My post comes off declarative - apologize for that. It is merely an opinion.

If you ask me, all opinions are welcome, especially when they give food to thought.

I have reviewed an Aurender S10 that I felt was very good and later reviewed and subsequently owned an N10 which I thought was also great and certainly much better than the Vortexbox-based systems or the computer audio that I had used prior. What I started to learn at that point is that many servers have a certain character that tends to stick with the brand from model to model. The Aurender house sound has largely remained recognizably similar, although the N10 sounded rounder and sweeter than the S10.

This character can either fit with your personal preferences and/or form great system synergy, or it could work against it. Whether or not a server should have a certain character or sonic fingerprint is a question that I think everyone should answer for him or herself.

For my system at that time, however, the polished and slightly restrained-sounding N10 was ultimately not ideal.

On the topic of the Roon interface, I'm with you. I find the Aurender interface to be ok but I really love the way that Roon works. However, I should also add that I have been on the fence for quite some time about the Roon SQ. Some servers cope with it better than others but in general, Roon is not the best sounding option. Even if Aurender would implement Roon compatibility, chances are that this will not benefit the sound. As such, I can understand that they stick with their own interface.

Now, there are extremely exciting things in the works with XDMS. I cannot disclose much at this point but I will add that the Taiko team is well aware of the importance of the User Interface. Just as with the server hardware and its carefully tailored software, the aim is for the new UI to represent the very best out there.

 

[StreamFidelity]

I believe all of these "high-end" servers are outstanding.

I agree with the thesis behind it.

Apart from that, technical skills are also important. Your avatar (T+A device from the HV series) inspires me to ask a question here.

Before I put my question to everyone, let me give you my thoughts. The T+A SDV 3100 HV is a DAC which, among other things, supports the DSD1024 playback. Some will think there is hardly any source material with DSD1024. This is not the point, but rather the ability of the HQPlayer to convert PCM to DSD in real time. T+A recommends a computer for this, as the computing load is enormous.

And now to my question: is the Taiko Extreme able to perform the following conversions with the HQPlayer (for example new version HQPlayer 4 Desktop 4.15.2):

Convert/Oversample PCM 44.1/24 to DSD1024

Convert/Oversample PCM/96/24 to DSD512 with new modulator ASDM7ECv2

 

[nonesup]

The Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak...... Mark 14:38
I just ordered an Extreme

 

[Christiaan Punter]

no HQPlayer since the MSB prefers bit perfect. so using Roon/Tidal right now.....and JPlay is one of my zones to try but have not really used it yet.

the reason that the Extreme is in the middle is that the power plug on the rear of the Extreme would be a conflict with my Tripoint Elite sitting behind it if the Extreme was on the bottom. the Extreme has a very deep chassis. i do agree aesthetically that would be preferable.

another $16k for an additional Tana platform for the Extreme is not in the cards. i'm very happy with my HiFi Stay Trinia + Dazia + Dazia footers which are under both MSB Powerbases, the Extreme, and under both the Tripoint Elite and Troy Reference. adding this Adona rack allows all those passive devices to be optimized.

i do appreciate that the Adona rack has a very solid connection to support the Extreme in that spot.

FWIW HQPlayer can also work in a transparent bit-perfect mode although some would argue that this negates the usefulness of the software. In my experience, however, using HQPlayer NAA in the native bit depth and sample rate and with all of its filters disabled along with Roon (in my case with the Antipodes K50 and Aqua LinQ) results in better sound than with Roon RAAT. But admittedly I have no experience with either the Extreme or MSB just yet. The former is on the agenda

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I agree.

The reason of connection failed is that I don't know about network mechanism.

I couldn't spend enough time to set C1 user's Extreme.

At the risk of replying to a long-solved issue (I'm going through this entire thread to catch up), here are my 2 cents anyway, hoping my response can still help others. The CH Precision C1's streaming module works with UPnP/DLNA or Roon RAAT. While the Roon functionality should work with the Extreme, it won't yield the very best sound from it. This is no fault of the C1's streaming module (it's actually great) but because the Extreme's USB output section is so very well-implemented. In addition, the Extreme is found by many to sound better when using the Taiko-specific TAS software than when using Roon. The C1 does also allow AES/EBU and S/PDIF connections but as I understand it, the cards that are available for this are not up to the Taiko USB card's standard. Lastly, the C1 also has a proprietary implementation of I2S using a non-standard connector but I doubt that this input could interface with anything except CH components.

 

[Steve Williams]

On the topic of the Roon interface, I'm with you. I find the Aurender interface to be ok but I really love the way that Roon works. However, I should also add that I have been on the fence for quite some time about the Roon SQ. Some servers cope with it better than others but in general, Roon is not the best sounding option. Even if Aurender would implement Roon compatibility, chances are that this will not benefit the sound. As such, I can understand that they stick with their own interface.

Now, there are extremely exciting things in the works with XDMS. I cannot disclose much at this point but I will add that the Taiko team is well aware of the importance of the User Interface. Just as with the server hardware and its carefully tailored software, the aim is for the new UI to represent the very best out there

I also love the Roon interface. The problem is I am not enamored with Roon SQ until the most recent build , so I haven't used Roon since Emile introduced TAS and now with XDMS soon to appear, Roon almost certainly will only be a word in my vocabulary. The long wait is almost over and Im betting Emile and his team are going to hit another walk off home run with XDMS

 

[Taiko Audio]

I agree with the thesis behind it.

Apart from that, technical skills are also important. Your avatar (T+A device from the HV series) inspires me to ask a question here.

Before I put my question to everyone, let me give you my thoughts. The T+A SDV 3100 HV is a DAC which, among other things, supports the DSD1024 playback. Some will think there is hardly any source material with DSD1024. This is not the point, but rather the ability of the HQPlayer to convert PCM to DSD in real time. T+A recommends a computer for this, as the computing load is enormous.

And now to my question: is the Taiko Extreme able to perform the following conversions with the HQPlayer (for example new version HQPlayer 4 Desktop 4.15.2):

Convert/Oversample PCM 44.1/24 to DSD1024

Convert/Oversample PCM/96/24 to DSD512 with new modulator ASDM7ECv2

Well yes you could do that but our customers owning the T+A 3100 series all prefer bit-perfect playback.

 

[Taiko Audio]

The Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak...... Mark 14:38
I just ordered an Extreme

Welcome on board!

 

[Taiko Audio]

FWIW HQPlayer can also work in a transparent bit-perfect mode although some would argue that this negates the usefulness of the software. In my experience, however, using HQPlayer NAA in the native bit depth and sample rate and with all of its filters disabled along with Roon (in my case with the Antipodes K50 and Aqua LinQ) results in better sound than with Roon RAAT. But admittedly I have no experience with either the Extreme or MSB just yet. The former is on the agenda

This was actually true between the Roon update @romaz mentioned above and the latest Roon update. Reports so far indicate Roon RAAT is now preferred again over routing through HQPlayer / NAA.