Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Kris]

We have a customer who has nice results with Total DAC reclocker to the Berkeley DAC

And there is a Crazy one who has 3 Totaldac reclockers chained to Totaldac 24.....

 

[Kris]

@wil

Things have changed with the launch of the new USB card.

When using a copper cable to connect to your network make sure it has no shield connecting the preceding switch or router chassis/ground. To verify this I recommend to use a cheap standard cat5 or cat6 network cable (easily identifiable by its plastic / non conductive rj45 plugs), and compare to whatever else you are using.

Fiber and copper still sound different, still respectively more analytical versus warmer. Fiber does indeed benefit more from setting up a VLAN then copper, it is more sensitive to network traffic which can be reduced by this mechanism. We do however not provide support on connectivity issues stemming from doing that.

My personal preference right now is a standard copper cat5 cable which I feel sounds most natural, in my system, your preference may very well be different.

There is one thing I tested yesterday.
If the Ethernet copper cable introduces noise via its shield This might be a case in USB cables.
I have recommended by Emile Intona Ultimate . Excellent neutral cable.
This cable has a metal shield outside , cutting it could totally destroy the cable.
Shield is connected to server ground so it can transfer all the noise to USB reciever in the DAC.
What I did I simply used one of my 50 Audio Note ferrites .
Those were designed for getting niose out of interconnecting cables shields and speaker cables Shields.
Adding audio Note ferrite on the USB shield improved things Very significant.
Try it . It is very cheap and safe.

The other idea I Did not test is to power the USB card from DC4 to get a separate isolated ground . I am quite sure This could improve things very significant but I dont think Emile will recommend that , so I use ferrite.

Very glad I tested This ferrite on USB. It will stay there.
Actually I use 2 of them on both ends today.
More than 2 is not a good idea.

 

[Kris]

does the same argument suggest that there should be no shield connection between server and DAC also?

if i'm not mistaken, the floating shield of the Sablon would serve the same purpose of breaking the conductive path from the server to the DAC, right?

I agree the shield on USB cable introduces some niose .
Add ferrite or 2 of them ( Audio Note) and have fun !

 

[matthias]

I agree the shield on USB cable introduces some niose .

You can try an unshielded USB cable like the Jena Labs:

The Stream Dancer USB 2

Welcome to JENA Stream Dancer - USB 2

www.jenalabs.com

"Why we do not shield the cable:
In the StreamDancer, the 2 data lines are a tightly twisted pair, as per the specification protocol of the USB standards. We have not found it necessary to shield them. Adding a shield will increase the parasitic capacitance to ground for each line in the pair, and reduce the bandwidth of the transmission line. You would hear that as a drop in transparency or detail. There may be a rare circumstance come up some day, where due to very high RF field in a given location, the trade-offs involved may well favor shielding the data lines...but we have yet to encounter that situation. If it is needed, we can do so with a grounded braided copper shield applied over the data pair, and the DC lines braided over the shielded data line. Yes, it is very possible to do so. but not needed in normal circumstance. And due to slowing of rise-time due to capacitance, not desirable unless absolutely needed to eliminate another problem that is greater in magnitude than the losses of the cure."

Matt

 

[Taiko Audio]

You can try an unshielded USB cable like the Jena Labs:

Try that with tubeamps

 

[Kingsrule]

Hi Emile

In my Extreme LAN 2 is labeled "Tweaked Ethernet"

In the Extreme user manual it says to use LAN 1

Trying new LAN cables so they aren't broken in and are new to me.

Is there a difference and which LAN is recommended?

 

[howiebrou]

Hi Emile

In my Extreme LAN 2 is labeled "Tweaked Ethernet"

In the Extreme user manual it says to use LAN 1

Trying new LAN cables so they aren't broken in and are new to me.

Is there a difference and which LAN is recommended?

I don't recall ever seeing an Extreme manual? Is there one online that we can download?

 

[Kris]

You can try an unshielded USB cable like the Jena Labs:

The Stream Dancer USB 2

Welcome to JENA Stream Dancer - USB 2

www.jenalabs.com

"Why we do not shield the cable:
In the StreamDancer, the 2 data lines are a tightly twisted pair, as per the specification protocol of the USB standards. We have not found it necessary to shield them. Adding a shield will increase the parasitic capacitance to ground for each line in the pair, and reduce the bandwidth of the transmission line. You would hear that as a drop in transparency or detail. There may be a rare circumstance come up some day, where due to very high RF field in a given location, the trade-offs involved may well favor shielding the data lines...but we have yet to encounter that situation. If it is needed, we can do so with a grounded braided copper shield applied over the data pair, and the DC lines braided over the shielded data line. Yes, it is very possible to do so. but not needed in normal circumstance. And due to slowing of rise-time due to capacitance, not desirable unless absolutely needed to eliminate another problem that is greater in magnitude than the losses of the cure."

Matt

Thank you.
This might be a better idea then a ferrite.
Ferrite might influence the USB data stream significant.
Will check that no shield USB cord solution.

I hope Emile who is known of his perfection to the detail will test some of the options to the USB shield issue as he did for the copper Ethernet cables.
Adding external power socket for the USB card might also be a good idea that will separate card from server ground. Simmilar solution was used by Marcin (Jcat) in his USB cards.
But for that to be incorporated into the Extreme we need Emile to make sure it is safe.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile

In my Extreme LAN 2 is labeled "Tweaked Ethernet"

In the Extreme user manual it says to use LAN 1

Trying new LAN cables so they aren't broken in and are new to me.

Is there a difference and which LAN is recommended?

When we first rolled out the infamous "Roon fix" which included tweaks to a network adapter we applied that to the network connection in use with the remark to keep using that adapter and back then we labelled it "Tweaked Ethernet". Part of this decision was to avoid IP address changes and increase speed of deployment, we updated every Extreme manually, remote, in 1-2 weeks. On every Extreme shipped from then on we applied this on the network adapter labelled "LAN1".

In one of the next releases of TAS we will include an option to apply that tuning to the network adapter by your choice and/or apply a default configuration.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I don't recall ever seeing an Extreme manual? Is there one online that we can download?

Yes, you can get it from Ben or download it directly from our website, it's listed at the bottom of the Extreme product page, here's a direct link:
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme manual

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you.
This might be a better idea then a ferrite.
Ferrite might influence the USB data stream significant.
Will check that no shield USB cord solution.

I hope Emile who is known of his perfection to the detail will test some of the options to the USB shield issue as he did for the copper Ethernet cables.
Adding external power socket for the USB card might also be a good idea that will separate card from server ground. Simmilar solution was used by Marcin (Jcat) in his USB cards.
But for that to be incorporated into the Extreme we need Emile to make sure it is safe.

A ferrite cable clamp acts as a low pass filter by dissipating RF energy as heat or reflecting it back up the cable. In contrast the inductive low pass filter we use on the USB card operates by providing a high impedance to RF impeding the flow to start with. The addition of ferrites creates unpredictable results, to know exactly what happens you'd need exact specifications and simulate and/or measure.

Not using a USB cable shield will likely compromise data integrity, USB audio does not have extensive error correction like Ethernet does, and the radiation is undesirable as well, hence my earlier comment "try that with tube amps".

I posted this earlier in this thread but here's a display of Ethernet error correction:

 

[Kingsrule]

When we first rolled out the infamous "Roon fix" which included tweaks to a network adapter we applied that to the network connection in use with the remark to keep using that adapter and back then we labelled it "Tweaked Ethernet". Part of this decision was to avoid IP address changes and increase speed of deployment, we updated every Extreme manually, remote, in 1-2 weeks. On every Extreme shipped from then on we applied this on the network adapter labelled "LAN1".

In one of the next releases of TAS we will include an option to apply that tuning to the network adapter by your choice and/or apply a default configuration.

This is a bit confusing. During that update I wasn't using either LAN connection, I was using the fiber connection (u didn't perform this update BTW, Christoph did it)
My "Tweaked Ethernet" is LAN 2. Should I be using it or LAN 1 ?

 

[Taiko Audio]

This is a bit confusing. During that update I wasn't using either LAN connection, I was using the fiber connection (u didn't perform this update BTW)
My "Tweaked Ethernet" is LAN 2. Should I be using it or LAN 1 ?

Use the one labelled "Tweaked Ethernet" or feel free to send me teamviewer codes to modify.

 

[Kingsrule]

Thank You Emile!

The LAN connection is sounding very good, especially with the UTP cable

 

[oldmustang]

When we first rolled out the infamous "Roon fix" which included tweaks to a network adapter we applied that to the network connection in use with the remark to keep using that adapter and back then we labelled it "Tweaked Ethernet". Part of this decision was to avoid IP address changes and increase speed of deployment, we updated every Extreme manually, remote, in 1-2 weeks. On every Extreme shipped from then on we applied this on the network adapter labelled "LAN1".

In one of the next releases of TAS we will include an option to apply that tuning to the network adapter by your choice and/or apply a default configuration.

I'm a little confused -- I know, I know, how is that any different from my normal state?

My Extreme pre-dates the "Roon Fix" and by the time Emile and company rolled out those new system settings I had been using fiber for some time. However, I'd like to revisit unshielded copper ethernet versus fiber again and hear if my preference has changed with all the improvements since the last time I tried copper ethernet. Which ethernet input should I be using on the Extreme for best effect?

Thanks,

Steve Z

 

[Steve Williams]

I use LAN 1 with my copper

 

[oldmustang]

Oh, never mind. Now that I've had my first cup of coffee I realized I can go into my Extreme, check the Windows "Settings" and find out which ethernet connection is "Tweaked" (#2 in my case).

Steve Z

 

[cat6man]

I'm a little confused -- I know, I know, how is that any different from my normal state?

My Extreme pre-dates the "Roon Fix" and by the time Emile and company rolled out those new system settings I had been using fiber for some time. However, I'd like to revisit unshielded copper ethernet versus fiber again and hear if my preference has changed with all the improvements since the last time I tried copper ethernet. Which ethernet input should I be using on the Extreme for best effect?

Thanks,

Steve Z

please report your observations as this sounds interesting

 

[dminches]

We have several iterations of a switch ready we could put into production. However I'm not fully satisfied.

I assume you also considered building a ethernet card (since you think of everything!). Is that something that could happen at some point (instead of a switch)?

 

[oldmustang]

please report your observations as this sounds interesting

Later this afternoon or evening, left coast US time.

Steve Z