Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Steve Williams]

What I am really wondering is with the Select ll which imo is an amazing DAC and using the MSB Pro USB only and not use any of the things you put in your shopping list whether there would be an audible improvement if all those things are added IOW is that shopping list really necessary using the Select ll with the MSB Pro USB with your Extreme

 

[MRJAZZ]

Some interesting snippets of information above. Take the above quote. Theoretically it doesn’t make sense for an upstream cable with no feed into the final locally stored stream to affect SQ but according to CKK it does. This is also my experience with my Innuos Statement. Is it because the upgraded cable allows less EMI into the system? I’ve upgraded several upstream remote stream cables and each time heard a useful uptick in performance from locally streamed files.

Re the AQVox question......the PS on the AQVox can be significantly upgraded, despite the manufacturer’s claim to the contrary. I added a Sean Jacobs designed CHC DC3 to an AQVox and the level of improvement was hard to believe, considering all I’d changed was the power supply to a switch. However if you think about it, what comes out of the AQVox is a voltage stream generated from the DC3’s 5 volts, so maybe not so surprising.

Finally regarding the SoTM TXUltra. I also found this to be a downgrade to the Innuos’s USB stream so there’s no doubt its 2 cables, extra PS etc is going to degrade the Extreme’s USB output. In my experience a good USB cable (in my case a Synergistic Research) gave me the best SQ

If all the music files are now stored locally on the server ( Extreme, Innuos Statement, etc.) and installing a better Ethernet cable to the NAS for better isolation (which apparently yields better sound ) ,....why not just turn the NAS off”.?.... If it isn’t actually being used, ( files are now on the dedicated server) what’s the point of leaving it on? What am I missing here ?

 

[marty]

we have a Chick-Fil-A in town, but the line is always so long you can't even get into the parking lot.

I'm not surprised. Passed through Denver airport a few months agi and the Chick-Fil-A line was around the block. At 10:30 in the morning! Every other concession was empty! Not bad for a company that's closed on Sunday.

 

[Steve Williams]

I do agree with your comment below as that has been my experience. as well as I believe firmly in eliminating noise from ones system. I went the rack and footer route.

It’s quite minimal once that fiber setup is in place. I dont even bother to go there myself, a set of footers can do more then all of it combined, hence the COMPLETELY

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What I am really wondering is with the Select ll which imo is an amazing DAC and using the MSB Pro USB only and not use any of the things you put in your shopping list whether there would be an audible improvement if all those things are added IOW is that shopping list really necessary using the Select ll with the MSB Pro USB with your Extreme

Steve - audiophiles are a restless bunch always looking to tweak their stuff. You don’t need to worry about all the OCD if you don’t want. Just turn the Extreme on and stick a usb cable into your dac and be done.

Audiophiles will *always* continue to look for new ways to get even better performance. Just so happens that computer audio probably has more avenues for exploration than even vinyl. There are only so many variables that analogue folks piss around with - digital has a lot more.

 

[Taiko Audio]

What I am really wondering is with the Select ll which imo is an amazing DAC and using the MSB Pro USB only and not use any of the things you put in your shopping list whether there would be an audible improvement if all those things are added IOW is that shopping list really necessary using the Select ll with the MSB Pro USB with your Extreme

No not necessary at all, it is just a nice tweak for the USD 350 (just looked it up) it costs on amazon.

The shopping list makes it sound more then it is. I think this may help:

The MSB Pro USB interface package consists of:
1) USB to fiber I2S converter (MSB Pro module)
2) Fiber input module, plugs into the MSB dac (MSB Pro ISL)
3) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the MSB Pro, the other into the MSB Pro ISL module)
4) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
5) An USB cable to connect the MSB Pro Module to the source

The Network Fiber package consists of:
1) UTP copper to SFP fiber converter, (FMC or Fibre Media Converter)
2) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the FMC, the other into the Extreme)
3) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
4) An ethernet cable to connect the FMC to your internet modem/router/switch whatever you have there

This may illustrate that it is not more complicated then the MSB Pro USB package, in fact, from a practical POV identical.

Both are optional.

The entire MSB Pro USB package can be replaced by just a single USB cable.

The entire network fiber package can be replaced by just a single ethernet cable.

Both give you a relative small boost in sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

This list is to help non Extreme owners browsing this thread. I do advice, and supply, these parts with an Extreme on request.

It’s quite minimal once that fiber setup is in place. I dont even bother to go there myself, a set of footers can do more then all of it combined, hence the COMPLETELY

More or less in this subjective hobby is a matter of preference, what bothers me is that such tweaks carried past the optical link can modify the performance of the Extreme. This suggests we still need a "cleaner" to remove digital artifacts and noise between the network and the Extreme.

When you use a renderer though, this all becomes significant.
I have a love/hate relationship with networking, I love it for the access it gives you to a music collection you cannot even possibly fully explore in your lifetime. I hate it for being the single most harmfull thing for sound quality.

Humans hate what they fear. IMHO your relation of love/hate is due to fact we are not being able to master completely the subjective quality associated to networks. It is much more complicated than USB. But it seems to me that this subject will need the participation of DAC designers and manufacturers.

Therefor a lot of our design efforts focus on minimizing its diabolical influence, and we’ve come a long way in accomplishing just that, proof of that is superior qobuz playback quality over local ssd storage, and that is there, with or without any additional tweaks.

Do you also feel that NAS is superior to local ssd storage?

Now it may be more clear why I’m not a fan of ethernet renderers. With the Extreme, with its more then excellent networking audio performance, I have not come across any DAC which performs better over ethernet then USB, not even MSB.


To add to that, the Audiophile in me does NOT enjoy tweaking my networking setup. I get zero warm fuzzy feelings from spending money on switches, ethernet cables, ethernet isolators, etcetera.

Point taken, I feel the same concerning digital tweaks. But they are effective and most people here seem to enjoy the tweaks even more than the server ...

 

[microstrip]

(...) Audiophiles will *always* continue to look for new ways to get even better performance. Just so happens that computer audio probably has more avenues for exploration than even vinyl. There are only so many variables that analogue folks piss around with - digital has a lot more.

Interesting. Why do you feel that digital has a lot more variables than analog?

 

[ddk]

I have a love/hate relationship with networking, I love it for the access it gives you to a music collection you cannot even possibly fully explore in your lifetime. I hate it for being the single most harmfull thing for sound quality.

Thank you Emil for your frankness, I realize that there are different levels of harmful and there are equipment that deal with some aspects of it but I doubt that there's a real cure for it or will be in the foreseeable future.

david

 

[Taiko Audio]

This suggests we still need a "cleaner" to remove digital artifacts and noise between the network and the Extreme.

I am not going to put all my cards on the table, but I will leave you something to think about: There is much more then just “electrical pollution” at play. And although I really shouldn’t: What makes you so sure perceived fiber link benefits are all about electrical isolation? Sorry but that’s all you’re getting from me

we are not being able to master completely the subjective quality associated to networks.

I have a pretty good idea, but I just cannot share it with you at this point in time.

Do you also feel that NAS is superior to local ssd storage?

Absolutely not. Atleast not with what’s on the market right now.

Point taken, I feel the same concerning digital tweaks. But they are effective and most people here seem to enjoy the tweaks even more than the server ...

I will just add to my previous statement that I cannot consciously recommend to my clients to invest heavily in network tweaks.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Interesting. Why do you feel that digital has a lot more variables than analog?

There are just so many variables in computer audio that can be pissed about with versus analogue. I started writing a list in computer audio but it kept on going so I just deleted it lol.

In the analogue world (I am referring to TT specifically) there are also many variables just not as many IMO. You have carts, cart setup, phonos and loading & gain, isolation, speed stability devices, tonearms, platter mats, rcm’s, TT weights, periphery rings, phono cables. There are more but that is my starter for 10.

In the computer audio world, just software alone and all the potential settings is crazy. There are pages upon pages of stuff written about optimising a server for playback. You could literally spend a lifetime just doing that without even venturing into any other domain. Al seems to spend his life on this.

Best.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you Emil for your frankness, I realize that there are different levels of harmful and there are equipment that deal with some aspects of it but I doubt that there's a real cure for it or will be in the foreseeable future.

david

Hi David,

It is an honor to see you take an interest in these parts of the forum. Yes time will tell.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting. Why do you feel that digital has a lot more variables than analog?

the adc <-> dac process has more radical steps happening to the signal than analog. then delivery of the media to the end user has many more twists and turns. so many more places for the musical essence to be diminished. not that analog does not have it's own issues too.

also....significantly.....end users have many more choices with digital in how to experience it. which adds further complications.

 

[Steve Williams]

the adc <-> dac process has more radical steps happening to the signal than analog. then delivery of the media to the end user has many more twists and turns. so many more places for the musical essence to be diminished. not that analog does not have it's own issues too.

also....significantly.....end users have many more choices with digital in how to experience it. which adds further complications.

My philosophy has always been "KISS"

Keep it simple stupid (with me of course being stupid)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My philosophy has always been "KISS"

Keep it simple stupid (with me of course being stupid)

i respect that, and love the more simple analog process.

but access to music, both in ease of use allowing more listening, and accessing new music, is equally important (to me). digital dwarfs analog in those things. and at this point, unless you are at the tip-top of analog, you can chose to give up nothing on the performance side to listen to digital.

 

[DMSB]

No not necessary at all, it is just a nice tweak for the USD 350 (just looked it up) it costs on amazon.

The shopping list makes it sound more then it is. I think this may help:

The MSB Pro USB interface package consists of:
1) USB to fiber I2S converter (MSB Pro module)
2) Fiber input module, plugs into the MSB dac (MSB Pro ISL)
3) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the MSB Pro, the other into the MSB Pro ISL module)
4) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
5) An USB cable to connect the MSB Pro Module to the source

The Network Fiber package consists of:
1) UTP copper to SFP fiber converter, (FMC or Fibre Media Converter)
2) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the FMC, the other into the Extreme)
3) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
4) An ethernet cable to connect the FMC to your internet modem/router/switch whatever you have there

This may illustrate that it is not more complicated then the MSB Pro USB package, in fact, from a practical POV identical.

Both are optional.

The entire MSB Pro USB package can be replaced by just a single USB cable.

The entire network fiber package can be replaced by just a single ethernet cable.

Both give you a relative small boost in sound quality.

Its really much simpler than you make it seem we give you the whole package with the Pro USB the difference is really a USB input module + USB cable of your choice vs the ProUSB kit + USB cable of your choice. The difference is about $500USD. The ProUSB kit contains all the hardware you need.

 

[justubes]

I would not call these tweaks and have referred to the network setup as a separate eco system on its own.

Yes, it is that complicated, no single recommendation may be suited or complements every system, but the scene for networking has evolved and starting to offer audiophile approved networking equipment. These may just be tweaks to networking equipment which comprises of a very mature and advanced IT solutions for the industry.

These audio grade switches etc are just reclocked and this is widely audiophile approved approach that sounds better. It may well have zero improvement in an IT implementation.

Everything counts in audio. Consider the router, if streaming as your transport or SGM Extreme. The first lan cable, the digital cable. What psu and powercord use will set the bar. Use your most hated footers and your secondary or main hifi systems may well pick all traits of the sonic imprint of these dreaded footers you have always loathed will flow in to your systems reproduction of music.

Get it wring could mean disaster.

Even the wrong or not complementary sounding choice of different brands of stock router varies wildly sonically speaking.

What works for a particular system may not work so well in another system. The difference is that big and may well be mire critical than the effects of say changing your dac.

Of course using top notch gear will not sound bad, but over time, removing and replacing network equipment may well contribute rather significantly when complementary sonic synergies where not achieved from the start.

Each little step may provide that few percentage improvements, but it is just as important that changes made shows improvements in the right direction of persinal sonic preferences.

 

[Number9]

No not necessary at all, it is just a nice tweak for the USD 350 (just looked it up) it costs on amazon.

The shopping list makes it sound more then it is. I think this may help:

The MSB Pro USB interface package consists of:
1) USB to fiber I2S converter (MSB Pro module)
2) Fiber input module, plugs into the MSB dac (MSB Pro ISL)
3) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the MSB Pro, the other into the MSB Pro ISL module)
4) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
5) An USB cable to connect the MSB Pro Module to the source

The Network Fiber package consists of:
1) UTP copper to SFP fiber converter, (FMC or Fibre Media Converter)
2) 2 SFP modules (one plugs into the FMC, the other into the Extreme)
3) A fiber cable which inserts into the SFP modules on both ends
4) An ethernet cable to connect the FMC to your internet modem/router/switch whatever you have there

This may illustrate that it is not more complicated then the MSB Pro USB package, in fact, from a practical POV identical.

Both are optional.

The entire MSB Pro USB package can be replaced by just a single USB cable.

The entire network fiber package can be replaced by just a single ethernet cable.

Both give you a relative small boost in sound quality.

To what are you referring, relative to what? Imo FO makes a relatively BIG improvement.over just about anything else between the wall and the DAC.

 

[Taiko Audio]

To what are you referring, relative to what? Imo FO makes a relatively BIG improvement.over just about anything else between the wall and the DAC.

Relative to the Extreme purchasing price. Its good to note the Extreme already performs very well with a standard copper network setup. I do feel the minor relative investment is more then worth it to implement.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Its really much simpler than you make it seem we give you the whole package with the Pro USB the difference is really a USB input module + USB cable of your choice vs the ProUSB kit + USB cable of your choice. The difference is about $500USD. The ProUSB kit contains all the hardware you need.

My goal for that post was to illustrate that the MSB Pro solution is generally accepted to be simple to implement, but Fiber networking is thought of to be very complex, while complexity levels are the same, simply plug&play...