Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[MarkusBarkus]

...Emile do you know yet (or expect) that powering the new USB card with BPS overcomes the limitations previously described as inherent in the USB protocol itself?

Myself, I'm still keen on an MSB/ProISL solution, perhaps also battery powered, it seems. Sounds waaay easier than powering the whole enchilada via battery. Cheers.

 

[Taiko Audio]

...Emile do you know yet (or expect) that powering the new USB card with BPS overcomes the limitations previously described as inherent in the USB protocol itself?

No that will do nothing for that.

 

[Sun King]

Emile, thank you for the fascinating information on the design of the ”mini” bps. Does your current approach allow one battery section to power the extreme while the other is offline being charged (with software to manage the interchange and allow continual battery operattion)? Or is that an approach you considered and discarded?

 

[Armsan]

...Emile do you know yet (or expect) that powering the new USB card with BPS overcomes the limitations previously described as inherent in the USB protocol itself?

Myself, I'm still keen on an MSB/ProISL solution, perhaps also battery powered, it seems. Sounds waaay easier than powering the whole enchilada via battery. Cheers.

+1 looking forward to the Taiko/MSB/ProISL solution. Hope that will be real sometime in the near future, so we can get rid of the USB connection. I believe!

 

[VPN]

Dear Emile,

Thank you for the BPS report! Did you hear any difference in the Taiko sound between the big BPS vs. mini BPS?

For the two mini BPS solution, I suppose you found a way to charge one while the other is operating, right? Would you offer a two mini BPS option in a single enclosure, sharing a single DC input and making the whole thing more tidy?

 

[SwissTom]

By machining a new bottom plate which mounts on top of the motherboard, with integrated heat pipes, which effectively turns the entire chassis into a CPU cooler. This in turns frees up most of the internal space (except the PCIe expansion card area) for the battery pack and charging solution. Mission accomplished? Well yes with a catch, this solution involves a complete rebuild of the Extreme and it will end up weighing around 70Kg.

Hi Emile,

Has a design for this 70 Kg chassis already been finalised?

Is there a sketch you could share?

Or at least some dimensions?

And perhaps a rough idea of the shipping dates?

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Steve Williams]

After an internal discussion we have decided to not share details on more upcoming products right now, the reason not being one of secrecy, but a more practical one which is the load these reveals put on our support team. Right now answering questions on the upcoming BPS and new interfaces already create a considerable load to which we don't want to add more, especially as the imminent shipping of the routers will undoubtedly create an additional load already.

smart move and completely understood. Pardon my zealousness.

 

[VPN]

After an internal discussion we have decided to not share details on more upcoming products right now, the reason not being one of secrecy, but a more practical one which is the load these reveals put on our support team. Right now answering questions on the upcoming BPS and new interfaces already create a considerable load to which we don't want to add more, especially as the imminent shipping of the routers will undoubtedly create an additional load already.

In stead I'll share some more details on the current evolvement of the BPS:

A practical challenge with using battery power is when/how to recharge the battery cells combined with the amount of energy storage of the battery pack.

Some simple maths:
An Extreme uses between 60 and 80 watts of power depending on the amount of processing it has to perform and which expansions are installed, the amount of internal storage etc. So we should calculate using the upper limit being 80 watts.
If we want 20 hours of "off the grid" playback capability we will consume 1600 watts, that leaves 4 hours of charging which means we will need to draw 400 watts / hour in our charging window, add 10% for efficiency losses, meaning 440 watts an hour. If we want to charge using a Linear Power Supply that would involve somewhat of a hefty (physically large) supply. One could argue if it's out of the listening window anyway, we could use a SMPS, which can be more compact. But... it's a SMPS. We have developed technology to disconnect it from the mains when it doesn't need to charge, but all of this does not make it a cheap solution and actually not that compact as if it needs to be fan less it will actually require some heatsinking at those charging powers. Naturally we could turn this into a 16 hour listening / 8 hour charging window, that lowers the amount of battery cells needed, and reduces charging requirements, but all together the space savings are not "huge".

How could we implement this solution in a single chassis Extreme? By machining a new bottom plate which mounts on top of the motherboard, with integrated heat pipes, which effectively turns the entire chassis into a CPU cooler. This in turns frees up most of the internal space (except the PCIe expansion card area) for the battery pack and charging solution. Mission accomplished? Well yes with a catch, this solution involves a complete rebuild of the Extreme and it will end up weighing around 70Kg.

The second option is an additional enclosure, that was our initial design which we finished over a year ago and was displayed at Munich 2022. This chassis can be a bit smaller then the Extreme itself, about 420*420 in stead of 483*455 with around the same height. We subsequently created a new design entailing dual 420*420 cases. Each weighing in at around 35Kg. We were never able to actually release this solution due to the parts shortage situation which was a huge problem back then, things are steadily improving in that area luckily and we have received notification of the battery cells we ordered ages ago are now in Germany and will arrive here in the next few days!

While waiting for all this, we have developed a "mini" BPS. This design uses 6 battery cells in stead of the 40 cells the "large" BPS uses. This 'mini" BPS sports a fully programmable firmware with an integrated a charging solution (it still requires a DC input though). We initially designed this to power external devices like the router and switch. It could power an Extreme for 2-3 hours so did not even consider that as an option before. However what we have running now is an Extreme powered by 2 of these which are in turn charged by an adjusted Linear Power supply. As a BPS can deliver up to 2000A instantaneously it covers the peaks involved with booting up the Extreme greatly reducing the requirements on the Linear Power Supply which only needs to supply a relatively low constant current. It is very promising so far solving both the space and weight "issues" and being considerable more affordable (as the other 2 options virtually double the Extreme's retail). We are currently working on finetuning the firmware for seamless operation of this setup, and on the Linear Power supply which naturally now still affects SQ to a degree, but not like in a fully linear powered Extreme as it's function is now reduced to being a battery charger.

Running out of time for today, but I'll try to write something on the interface developments in the next few days.

Dear Emile,

If: (a) There is no major difference in sound between Large BPs vs Dual Mini BPS, and (b) There is no sound degradation while one of the Mini BPS is charging, perhaps the ideal (value) solution would be to instal the Dual Mini BPS (total 12 battery cells) inside the current Taiko Enclosure, even if necessary to have a DC input and an external AC-DC power supply to charge the internal Dual Mini BPS.
Cheers,

VPN

 

[adamaley]

After an internal discussion we have decided to not share details on more upcoming products right now, the reason not being one of secrecy, but a more practical one which is the load these reveals put on our support team. Right now answering questions on the upcoming BPS and new interfaces already create a considerable load to which we don't want to add more, especially as the imminent shipping of the routers will undoubtedly create an additional load already.

In stead I'll share some more details on the current evolvement of the BPS:

A practical challenge with using battery power is when/how to recharge the battery cells combined with the amount of energy storage of the battery pack.

Some simple maths:
An Extreme uses between 60 and 80 watts of power depending on the amount of processing it has to perform and which expansions are installed, the amount of internal storage etc. So we should calculate using the upper limit being 80 watts.
If we want 20 hours of "off the grid" playback capability we will consume 1600 watts, that leaves 4 hours of charging which means we will need to draw 400 watts / hour in our charging window, add 10% for efficiency losses, meaning 440 watts an hour. If we want to charge using a Linear Power Supply that would involve somewhat of a hefty (physically large) supply. One could argue if it's out of the listening window anyway, we could use a SMPS, which can be more compact. But... it's a SMPS. We have developed technology to disconnect it from the mains when it doesn't need to charge, but all of this does not make it a cheap solution and actually not that compact as if it needs to be fan less it will actually require some heatsinking at those charging powers. Naturally we could turn this into a 16 hour listening / 8 hour charging window, that lowers the amount of battery cells needed, and reduces charging requirements, but all together the space savings are not "huge".

How could we implement this solution in a single chassis Extreme? By machining a new bottom plate which mounts on top of the motherboard, with integrated heat pipes, which effectively turns the entire chassis into a CPU cooler. This in turns frees up most of the internal space (except the PCIe expansion card area) for the battery pack and charging solution. Mission accomplished? Well yes with a catch, this solution involves a complete rebuild of the Extreme and it will end up weighing around 70Kg.

The second option is an additional enclosure, that was our initial design which we finished over a year ago and was displayed at Munich 2022. This chassis can be a bit smaller then the Extreme itself, about 420*420 in stead of 483*455 with around the same height. We subsequently created a new design entailing dual 420*420 cases. Each weighing in at around 35Kg. We were never able to actually release this solution due to the parts shortage situation which was a huge problem back then, things are steadily improving in that area luckily and we have received notification of the battery cells we ordered ages ago are now in Germany and will arrive here in the next few days!

While waiting for all this, we have developed a "mini" BPS. This design uses 6 battery cells in stead of the 40 cells the "large" BPS uses. This 'mini" BPS sports a fully programmable firmware with an integrated a charging solution (it still requires a DC input though). We initially designed this to power external devices like the router and switch. It could power an Extreme for 2-3 hours so did not even consider that as an option before. However what we have running now is an Extreme powered by 2 of these which are in turn charged by an adjusted Linear Power supply. As a BPS can deliver up to 2000A instantaneously it covers the peaks involved with booting up the Extreme greatly reducing the requirements on the Linear Power Supply which only needs to supply a relatively low constant current. It is very promising so far solving both the space and weight "issues" and being considerable more affordable (as the other 2 options virtually double the Extreme's retail). We are currently working on finetuning the firmware for seamless operation of this setup, and on the Linear Power supply which naturally now still affects SQ to a degree, but not like in a fully linear powered Extreme as it's function is now reduced to being a battery charger.

Running out of time for today, but I'll try to write something on the interface developments in the next few days.

This is the way.

 

[John T]

I'm quite certain Taiko's main focus is to receive the chassis for the router, get them assembled and out the door. One step at a time. Anyone who has had to deal with outsourcing understands the frustration of depending on others. So lets take a deep breath, relax, and enjoy our beautiful music...

 

[DW101]

I think we can still chat without disturbing them so I thought I'd offer you a slice of Schadenfreude at my expense...

My hifi system is in Nova Scotia, Canada so I end up with about 5 months a year with it, as we split the year between two homes.

Weather Woes:
We arrived in Canada at the beginning of June of may to find the province ablaze with wildfires.
6 or 7 weeks later we had an epic thunderstorm that dropped 3 months worth of rain over the course of one night, washing away roads and causing flooding.
We were expecting locusts next, and then Godzilla, but instead we have Hurricane Lee paying a visit this coming weekend!

Equipment Woes:
Arriving in Canada I had a Taiko Switch and Router on order and was looking forward to 4 months of awesome music.
The Switch got stuck in Canadian customs for what felt like an eternity, and arrived mid-July. I waited a week for it to properly burn in, but could tell it was improving significantly during that time and sounded really good. I was all set to have long, self-congratulatory listening session at the end of the weeks burn in.
Unfortunately that was the night of the epic thunderstorm, and sadly / stupidly I didn't shut the system's power off in time. The power flicked on and off a few times and my venerable Krell FPB 700cx decided it had had enough and refused to switch back on.
The repair guy couldn't fit me in until late October, which would have meant a long time without music, so in an attempt to create a silver lining out of the situation and accelerate my system evolution to a higher level I consulted my fantasy equipment wish list, spotted a couple of Solution 701 monoblocks at an 'attractive' price and bought them (Krell to be repaired then sold).
Sadly again they got stuck in Canadian customs (these guys are thorough, if nothing else) and ended up arriving at the end of August.

I've just spent an extremely happy couple of weeks listening to the burned-in switch and Soulution amps. So good. And I will definitely switch the hifi sub-panel off before the hurricane arrives this weekend...

We are leaving for our other house mid October, back in Canada with the system for Xmas. So I'm hoping the Router will ship soon - if it arrives before the end of the month I should get a week's burn in and a week full listening. With my recent luck, the Router will ship soon, get stuck in customs, and arrive just after I leave - IF the house is still standing after this weekend!

 

[RUIN*ish]

I think we can still chat without disturbing them so I thought I'd offer you a slice of Schadenfreude at my expense...

My hifi system is in Nova Scotia, Canada so I end up with about 5 months a year with it, as we split the year between two homes.

Weather Woes:
We arrived in Canada at the beginning of June of may to find the province ablaze with wildfires.
6 or 7 weeks later we had an epic thunderstorm that dropped 3 months worth of rain over the course of one night, washing away roads and causing flooding.
We were expecting locusts next, and then Godzilla, but instead we have Hurricane Lee paying a visit this coming weekend!

Equipment Woes:
Arriving in Canada I had a Taiko Switch and Router on order and was looking forward to 4 months of awesome music.
The Switch got stuck in Canadian customs for what felt like an eternity, and arrived mid-July. I waited a week for it to properly burn in, but could tell it was improving significantly during that time and sounded really good. I was all set to have long, self-congratulatory listening session at the end of the weeks burn in.
Unfortunately that was the night of the epic thunderstorm, and sadly / stupidly I didn't shut the system's power off in time. The power flicked on and off a few times and my venerable Krell FPB 700cx decided it had had enough and refused to switch back on.
The repair guy couldn't fit me in until late October, which would have meant a long time without music, so in an attempt to create a silver lining out of the situation and accelerate my system evolution to a higher level I consulted my fantasy equipment wish list, spotted a couple of Solution 701 monoblocks at an 'attractive' price and bought them (Krell to be repaired then sold).
Sadly again they got stuck in Canadian customs (these guys are thorough, if nothing else) and ended up arriving at the end of August.

I've just spent an extremely happy couple of weeks listening to the burned-in switch and Soulution amps. So good. And I will definitely switch the hifi sub-panel off before the hurricane arrives this weekend...

We are leaving for our other house mid October, back in Canada with the system for Xmas. So I'm hoping the Router will ship soon - if it arrives before the end of the month I should get a week's burn in and a week full listening. With my recent luck, the Router will ship soon, get stuck in customs, and arrive just after I leave - IF the house is still standing after this weekend!

I'm in florida.. Lee is expected to hit you at best a Cat1 and should be a trop storm (really) by then.... A mere sneeze.
If it didn't turn north, we would be enjoying a cat4 about right now.

You'll be fine. Get the whiskey out...

 

[John T]

I think we can still chat without disturbing them so I thought I'd offer you a slice of Schadenfreude at my expense...

My hifi system is in Nova Scotia, Canada so I end up with about 5 months a year with it, as we split the year between two homes.

Weather Woes:
We arrived in Canada at the beginning of June of may to find the province ablaze with wildfires.
6 or 7 weeks later we had an epic thunderstorm that dropped 3 months worth of rain over the course of one night, washing away roads and causing flooding.
We were expecting locusts next, and then Godzilla, but instead we have Hurricane Lee paying a visit this coming weekend!

Equipment Woes:
Arriving in Canada I had a Taiko Switch and Router on order and was looking forward to 4 months of awesome music.
The Switch got stuck in Canadian customs for what felt like an eternity, and arrived mid-July. I waited a week for it to properly burn in, but could tell it was improving significantly during that time and sounded really good. I was all set to have long, self-congratulatory listening session at the end of the weeks burn in.
Unfortunately that was the night of the epic thunderstorm, and sadly / stupidly I didn't shut the system's power off in time. The power flicked on and off a few times and my venerable Krell FPB 700cx decided it had had enough and refused to switch back on.
The repair guy couldn't fit me in until late October, which would have meant a long time without music, so in an attempt to create a silver lining out of the situation and accelerate my system evolution to a higher level I consulted my fantasy equipment wish list, spotted a couple of Solution 701 monoblocks at an 'attractive' price and bought them (Krell to be repaired then sold).
Sadly again they got stuck in Canadian customs (these guys are thorough, if nothing else) and ended up arriving at the end of August.

I've just spent an extremely happy couple of weeks listening to the burned-in switch and Soulution amps. So good. And I will definitely switch the hifi sub-panel off before the hurricane arrives this weekend...

We are leaving for our other house mid October, back in Canada with the system for Xmas. So I'm hoping the Router will ship soon - if it arrives before the end of the month I should get a week's burn in and a week full listening. With my recent luck, the Router will ship soon, get stuck in customs, and arrive just after I leave - IF the house is still standing after this weekend!

I don't know where to begin other than you must have a very calm demeanor/personality. I don't think I could have handled so many unfortunate events. And now Lee! Stay safe, sending you some good juju!!

 

[DW101]

I'm in florida.. Lee is expected to hit you at best a Cat1 and should be a trop storm (really) by then.... A mere sneeze.
If it didn't turn north, we would be enjoying a cat4 about right now.

You'll be fine. Get the whiskey out...

Yes you're right, I was exaggerating for effect

The power is 100% certain to go out though, Nova Scotia does love to string power lines along the edge of the forests (and we have lot).

Whiskey is great tip, thanks!

 

[RUIN*ish]

For those who have a Linksys router with the following in the advanced wifi settings:
"Airtime fairness"
I turned it on... streaming Radio Paradise via ethernet...

Try it if you get the chance. Let us know your thoughts..
Mn

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, thank you for the fascinating information on the design of the ”mini” bps. Does your current approach allow one battery section to power the extreme while the other is offline being charged (with software to manage the interchange and allow continual battery operattion)? Or is that an approach you considered and discarded?

Hi @Sun King ,

Yes that is one of the options we're currently testing, one thing to keep in mind though is that although the battery supply "floats" and therefor is not impacted by mains quality AND by an actual connection to your mains, safety earth etc, this changes when you create a path to your mains by means of a power supply used to charge your batteries. This supply also interacts with your mains supply affecting other connected devices...

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear Emile,

Thank you for the BPS report! Did you hear any difference in the Taiko sound between the big BPS vs. mini BPS?

For the two mini BPS solution, I suppose you found a way to charge one while the other is operating, right? Would you offer a two mini BPS option in a single enclosure, sharing a single DC input and making the whole thing more tidy?

The mini BPS is a bit better but that's because it utilises a newer generation of GaN fet regulators and a newer type of battery cell. Naturally the large BPS can be updated to that level.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear Emile,

If: (a) There is no major difference in sound between Large BPs vs Dual Mini BPS, and (b) There is no sound degradation while one of the Mini BPS is charging, perhaps the ideal (value) solution would be to instal the Dual Mini BPS (total 12 battery cells) inside the current Taiko Enclosure, even if necessary to have a DC input and an external AC-DC power supply to charge the internal Dual Mini BPS.
Cheers,

VPN

Indeed, the current best points towards installing multiple mini battery supplies inside the Extreme.

 

[MusicFellow]

Indeed, the current best points towards installing multiple mini battery supplies inside the Extreme.

Emile, just a quick question: So the two-pack mini BPS (2x 6 cells) still means that the current big toroidal LPS gets replaced… or is this still necessary? My understanding is that the second BPS pack serves as the charging part and also that the current big toroidal transformer needs to get out of the Extreme to create the necessary space.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, just a quick question: So the two-pack mini BPS (2x 6 cells) still means that the current big toroidal LPS gets replaced… or is this still necessary? My understanding is that the second BPS pack serves as the charging part and also that the current big toroidal transformer needs to get out of the Extreme to create the necessary space.

We could actually retain the Torodial + rectifier section to charge the battery supplies. But please give me some time to work on the optimal configuration.