Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Di-fi

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Feb 17, 2021
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No, the Router has 2 m.2 PCIe slots on board. Adding a cutout for an antenna is a piece of cake as long as we have it ready before we ship, which I’m pretty sure of we will.
I wondered why there is what seems to be a SIM card slot on the left side of the board? A wireless connection? Future plans for 4G connection?
 

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Di-fi

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Feb 17, 2021
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Yeah that’s for a SIM card, good to have options.
Interesting. With only 4G SIM it will allow for 100% isolation from the home network. You do not have to connect to the modem anymore.

Now it only can be : Extreme router - - switch - - server. And connect with a dedicated tablet to the Extreme router. That’s the option I would choose ;-).
 
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Di-fi

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Feb 17, 2021
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Interesting. With only 4G SIM it will allow for 100% isolation from the home network. You do not have to connect to the modem anymore.
Now it only can be : Exteme router - - switch - - server. And connect with a dedicated tablet to the Extreme router. That’s the option I would choose ;-)
Of course today you could use any ‘low powered‘ LTE/4G router (with modem build in) and connect to the Extreme router to obtain the same advantage of isolation from the home network.

LTE/4G router - - Extreme router - - switch - - server

This very likely already has been tested in Oldenzaal…..some time ago ;-)
 
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Taiko Audio

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Of course today you could use any ‘low powered‘ LTE/4G router (with modem build in) and connect to the Extreme router to obtain the same advantage of isolation from the home network.

LTE/4G router - - Extreme router - - switch - - server

This very likely already has been tested in Oldenzaal…..some time ago ;-)

The router already provides ample isolation from your home network :)
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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I have discarded the Tplink 660 hd, too much “interference”. The Microtik mAP lite is my currently preferred AP. It runs at 5V with about a 500mA current draw and mainly only affects high frequencies negatively where the Tplink affects almost the entire frequency range. But also exploring different paths.

View attachment 109319
Fantastic !
Happy you see the potential of big gains here. Cant wait for the ultimate solution , but also
understand this needs a little time to check all options.

Were you able to test any SFP based access points connected with DAC cable ?
This was the option I had no chance to test, but it might have some theoretical adavanteges if some isolation with Ground can be done .
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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The router already provides ample isolation from your home network :)

LTE / 4G has higher ping ( latency) than fibre so it might not be optimal for downloading big files .
Also I tested the LTE file download , and I strongly prefer to keep cellular off in my ipad .
LTE / 4g / cellular when active elevates the power burn = more noise
and genetates its own noise that adds to the signal.
 

seatrope

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2017
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one interesting way around having no wifi I have already tested to be working on my home XDMS/TAS system.

Use Tailscale on your main router at home for VPN. Have your ipad connected via 5G/4G through Tailscale and control Extreme via only 5G, no wifi.

So the only thing active is Ethernet in your house, and 5G for your ipad which is unavoidable around us anyway.
 

Di-fi

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Feb 17, 2021
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The Microtik mAP lite is my currently preferred AP.
LTE / 4G has higher ping ( latency) than fibre so it might not be optimal for downloading big files .
Also I tested the LTE file download , and I strongly prefer to keep cellular off in my ipad .
LTE / 4g / cellular when active elevates the power burn = more noise
and genetates its own noise that adds to the signal.
I also would completely avoid the LTE/4G/5G in the tablet and keep network traffic (including the tablet) to a bare minimum. Having only the 2.4 GHz band sparsely active seems ideal. Even better, the control app should (almost) become non-active once an album is playing. No track progress or any other communication to the tablet minimizes noise on the network.

Instead as a way around why not introduce the LTE/4G signal through a dedicated low powered router connected to the Extreme Router or the dirty router preceding it?

I understand from reading here and elsewhere that the control tablet can have quite an influence on SQ. It seems for the best results one should use the most recent tablet hardware and preferably Android combined with a low powered 2.4 GHz AP.

Please note the ‘not at all fancy‘ cabling attached to the Extreme Router: standard cat5 cable, standard DC micro USB and the standard DAC cables (unless they all had the QSA treatment ;-) . Who doesn’t love the Taiko immunity concept!
 

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Di-fi

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test any SFP based access points connected with DAC cable
Depending what you had in mind unlikely that could also be powered by the 5V on the Router so probably an external lps with ‘special’ ground?
 

Taiko Audio

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Feb 10, 2017
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Depending what you had in mind unlikely that could also be powered by the 5V on the Router so probably an external lps with ‘special’ ground?

The last piece of the puzzle is how to power the AP without compromising SQ.

But using a dedicated AP is simply (far) superior to any of the other solutions I tried.

I always try to not not over exaggerate the impact of “upgrades” we launch, but the way I have it running right now, which is one LPS powering the DC Distributor which then powers both the Switch and Router, with the AP (microtik map lite) powered from either a different power grid or battery is simply amazing. I would rate the addition of DC distributor + Router + AP as currently configured, I’m just going to say it, improving things to a larger degree then the Network card and Switch combo. Clarity, dimensionality, purity, naturalness of tone, ink black backgrounds. And this is with Roon (!). XDMS still manages to extract a bit more detail and is a bit clearer still, but it’s really close. This definitely reverts the clock for Roon to pre v1.6 SQ levels, and then some. Which also hints at why “that went wrong”.

As far as the DC distributor goes, I have a very strong preference for the Switch on the default filter and the Router on Alt filter 2, which just matches well with the system/LPS used. By now 6 others have heard this in our system (not counting Christiaan as he heard a previous iteration) and all 6 prefer the exact same settings on all music played (the differences between filters are not subtle btw, it will not be difficult to select your preference which will mainly vary with LPS used, although you can of course use it to alter your system balance if it was not entirely to your taste before).

I understand the desire for convenience, alternative solutions, multiple Roon Endpoints, adding more devices etc, but I cannot imagine you’d want to compromise this new level of SQ once heard. Going back to “just the switch+network card” would require me to not listen to the system for a few weeks to recalibrate as that now suddenly sounds pretty dull. Adding devices, routing more traffic, it all has an impact.

The last thing left to do is to properly filter/power the AP, which nut I’m very confident on we can crack.
 

Olivier59

Member
Feb 22, 2023
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Hello I just experiment since 3 days XDMS, before my wife was asking to stop the music and now is the contrary :). I am checking for a really good USB cable, if you have any recommendations?
 

cmarin

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Jul 16, 2011
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But using a dedicated AP is simply (far) superior to any of the other solutions I tried.

I always try to not not over exaggerate the impact of “upgrades” we launch, but the way I have it running right now, which is one LPS powering the DC Distributor which then powers both the Switch and Router, with the AP (microtik map lite) powered from either a different power grid or battery is simply amazing. I would rate the addition of DC distributor + Router + AP as currently configured, I’m just going to say it, improving things to a larger degree then the Network card and Switch combo. Clarity, dimensionality, purity, naturalness of tone, ink black backgrounds. And this is with Roon (!). XDMS still manages to extract a bit more detail and is a bit clearer still, but it’s really close. This definitely reverts the clock for Roon to pre v1.6 SQ levels, and then some. Which also hints at why “that went wrong”.

As far as the DC distributor goes, I have a very strong preference for the Switch on the default filter and the Router on Alt filter 2, which just matches well with the system/LPS used. By now 6 others have heard this in our system (not counting Christiaan as he heard a previous iteration) and all 6 prefer the exact same settings on all music played (the differences between filters are not subtle btw, it will not be difficult to select your preference which will mainly vary with LPS used, although you can of course use it to alter your system balance if it was not entirely to your taste before).

I understand the desire for convenience, alternative solutions, multiple Roon Endpoints, adding more devices etc, but I cannot imagine you’d want to compromise this new level of SQ once heard. Going back to “just the switch+network card” would require me to not listen to the system for a few weeks to recalibrate as that now suddenly sounds pretty dull. Adding devices, routing more traffic, it all has an impact.

The last thing left to do is to properly filter/power the AP, which nut I’m very confident on we can crack.
Emile,

Is this the AP (microtik map lite) you are using:

1684013103206.png
 

Di-fi

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2021
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The last piece of the puzzle is how to power the AP without compromising SQ.
And currently the best is the MikroTik mAP lite - RBmAPL-2nD powered with 5V Micro USB power jack from either a different power grid or battery causing no degradation whatsoever in the SQ of the Extreme.
@Taiko Audio any power type/brand suggestions appreciated !

Taiko seemed to prefer a 1000 Mb network speed compared to 100Mb. The AP has one 10/100 Ethernet port, so did the performance of this AP change your mind? I suppose 100Mb is enough for the control device's network demands and 1000 Mb preference still stands for the other router - switch - server connections to facilitate XDMS and more.
With the MikroTik AP connected no sudden stops during playback caused by 100Mbit network speeds or increase in error messages in Roon logs? What about the effect of a connected AP to the router on playing a) local files located on the server or b) files played from the USB drive connected to one of the Router’s two USB A ports?

I would rate the addition of DC distributor + Router + AP as currently configured, I’m just going to say it, improving things to a larger degree then the Network card and Switch combo.
o_O :):D
AdventurousSeveralElk-max-1mb.gif
 
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cat6man

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2013
898
1,002
1,185
west of NYC, east of SF
The last piece of the puzzle is how to power the AP without compromising SQ.

But using a dedicated AP is simply (far) superior to any of the other solutions I tried.

I always try to not not over exaggerate the impact of “upgrades” we launch, but the way I have it running right now, which is one LPS powering the DC Distributor which then powers both the Switch and Router, with the AP (microtik map lite) powered from either a different power grid or battery is simply amazing. I would rate the addition of DC distributor + Router + AP as currently configured, I’m just going to say it, improving things to a larger degree then the Network card and Switch combo. Clarity, dimensionality, purity, naturalness of tone, ink black backgrounds. And this is with Roon (!). XDMS still manages to extract a bit more detail and is a bit clearer still, but it’s really close. This definitely reverts the clock for Roon to pre v1.6 SQ levels, and then some. Which also hints at why “that went wrong”.

As far as the DC distributor goes, I have a very strong preference for the Switch on the default filter and the Router on Alt filter 2, which just matches well with the system/LPS used. By now 6 others have heard this in our system (not counting Christiaan as he heard a previous iteration) and all 6 prefer the exact same settings on all music played (the differences between filters are not subtle btw, it will not be difficult to select your preference which will mainly vary with LPS used, although you can of course use it to alter your system balance if it was not entirely to your taste before).

I understand the desire for convenience, alternative solutions, multiple Roon Endpoints, adding more devices etc, but I cannot imagine you’d want to compromise this new level of SQ once heard. Going back to “just the switch+network card” would require me to not listen to the system for a few weeks to recalibrate as that now suddenly sounds pretty dull. Adding devices, routing more traffic, it all has an impact.

The last thing left to do is to properly filter/power the AP, which nut I’m very confident on we can crack.

@taiko
i know you have a homebrew LPS, but could you tell us what voltage you are using and what the current capability is?
 
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Di-fi

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Feb 17, 2021
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@taiko
i know you have a homebrew LPS, but could you tell us what voltage you are using and what the current capability is?
And for that matter, there is virtually no device connected to a LPS that is immune to a better DC cable. Very likely it is the same for the DC Distributor, the Extreme Switch, the Extreme Router or the AP.

@Taiko Audio any suggestions appreciated! Or maybe at least a percentage rating what a preferred DC cable could contribute to the total SQ (dare I ask for each?). If it’s less than 1% do not bother please (and I will not ask the same question for better power cords or - fuses).
 
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