Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Rhapsody

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My observation is that in threads dedicated to "other servers" you do not encounter Extreme users trying to exalt the virtues of the Extreme or denigrate the other servers.

Although in the thread dedicated to the Extreme server there are users of "other servers" that feel it necessary to share their opinions on the design and implementation of the Extreme.

Quite telling in itself, quite flattering to the Extreme, of course imho.
 

howiebrou

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My observation is that in threads dedicated to "other servers" you do not encounter Extreme users trying to exalt the virtues of the Extreme or denigrate the other servers.

Although in the thread dedicated to the Extreme server there are users of "other servers" that feel it necessary to share their opinions on the design and implementation of the Extreme.

Quite telling in itself, quite flattering to the Extreme, of course imho.

Yes I think it is flattering to the Extreme but not surprising. We all aspire to own the best server we can afford. The best right now might be the extreme so it is natural for discussion about the extreme to include comparisons with other 'top flight' competitors. I certainly find it valuable as i want to know if the cost / performance ratio is justified. A discussion about the extreme in complete isolation from other manufacturers, once you get past the specs and philosophy, would be an exercise in tedium imho. Kudos to Emile for being willing to answer all these questions and engage. It certainly makes this one of the most interesting threads.
 

Rhapsody

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Yes I think it is flattering to the Extreme but not surprising. We all aspire to own the best server we can afford. The best right now might be the extreme so it is natural for discussion about the extreme to include comparisons with other 'top flight' competitors. I certainly find it valuable as i want to know if the cost / performance ratio is justified. A discussion about the extreme in complete isolation from other manufacturers, once you get past the specs and philosophy, would be an exercise in tedium imho. Kudos to Emile for being willing to answer all these questions and engage. It certainly makes this one of the most interesting threads.

Agreed, as I said just an observation, nothing more.
 

Steve Williams

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I have had my Extreme for about 2 months now and TBH, I really don't care about these arguments as they are totally meaningless to me. What is important to me is that IMHO the Extreme is the next best thing since sliced bread. It works with blazing speed, it never hiccups along the way and in my system it was just plug and play.The Extreme for me has changed the way I listen to music.

The proof of the pudding IS in the eating and in my system I couldn't be happier. How Emile got to where he is with the Extreme to me is unimportant. My Extreme is on for most of the day and it is barely even warm.

The SQ is superb and it is user friendly and when there might be a problem, Emile connects remotely from Holland and fixes the problem in seconds. I have zero complaints only accolades for Emile who seems to have endless energy. There is for me nothing, not to like and the unit is future proof for many years
 

howiebrou

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I have had my Extreme for about 2 months now and TBH, I really don't care about these arguments as they are totally meaningless to me. What is important to me is that IMHO the Extreme is the next best thing since sliced bread. It works with blazing speed, it never hiccups along the way and in my system it was just plug and play.The Extreme for me has changed the way I listen to music.

The proof of the pudding IS in the eating and in my system I couldn't be happier. How Emile got to where he is with the Extreme to me is unimportant. My Extreme is on for most of the day and it is barely even warm.

The SQ is superb and it is user friendly and when there might be a problem, Emile connects remotely from Holland and fixes the problem in seconds. I have zero complaints only accolades for Emile who seems to have endless energy. There is for me nothing, not to like and the units future proof for many years
Steve, can you not leave it on 24/7?? I don't habitually turn off my Sooloos nor my office computers.
 

Rhapsody

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Steve, can you not leave it on 24/7?? I don't habitually turn off my Sooloos nor my office computers.

I NEVER turn off my Extreme, I don't think Steve does, do you Steve?
 

Taiko Audio

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is there a benefit to have it on 24 x 7

It warms up pretty quick from the front panel power switch, probably takes around 20 minutes. The rear powerswitch I would leave on at all times though, barely uses power when engaged and flipping that can actually take several days to restabilize.
 
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Steve Williams

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It warms up pretty quick from the front panel power switch, probably takes around 20 minutes. The rear powerswitch I would leave on at all times though, barely uses power when engaged and flipping that can actually take several days to restabilize.
That's exactly what I do. Rear switch is always on but I don't always have the front switch powered on
 
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Steve Williams

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Emile

quick question. I recall when you were at my house you gave me a little caveat that I haven't forgotten. You said that when turning off the front switch it should be pressed twice, the first time for a few seconds and then push it again until it goes off as you said that the SQ is better when you turn the unit on again. Did I state that correctly? I always do a double tap now if I am turning it off at the front switch
 

Taiko Audio

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Emile

quick question. I recall when you were at my house you gave me a little caveat that I haven't forgotten. You said that when turning off the front switch it should be pressed twice, the first time for a few seconds and then push it again until it goes off as you said that the SQ is better when you turn the unit on again. Did I state that correctly? I always do a double tap now if I am turning it off at the front switch

Ah yes, power on is just a single click, power off is a double tap.

The reason for the double tap is, first press enables the video output which is off by default for better SQ, but does not power off the system, the second press really powers off the system (the light will turn off too).

As almost nobody ever connects a monitor to it I am considering changing it to just a single press for both power on and off.
 

romaz

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Hi Romaz,

My approach has been entirely different. Instead of using HPCPUs to correct incoming noise while adding their own noise to the outgoing signal I get rid of the incoming noise before it reaches the server. This has several benefits. 1. It means the CPU load is lower. 2. It means that a LPCPU can be used so 3. I get less incoming and CPU-generated noise going to the DAC and less latency throughout.

It appears you have curated a system for yourself that has made you very happy and so that's what matters. The engagement that your system brings to you that you described in your previous post is what we all aspire to and so if you have indeed arrived, then congratulations. My wife and I attend the symphony once a month on average. If we are fortunate, on a good month, we'll go 3-4 times and on a few occasions, we have even hosted small ensemble concerts in our home. Unfortunately, every time I turn on my system for a listen after having experienced one of these events, there is a bit of a letdown but such are the challenges of trying to recreate an unamplified acoustical performance because it's a fool's errand. For some time now, noise and harshness have not been the problem. What high power CPUs bring is a greater sense of being there. What lacks from the low power solutions that I have tried is scale and immediacy. Of course, it can be argued that these qualities fall more on the room, the speakers, amplifier, preamplifier and DAC but if the qualities you're seeking aren't adequately portrayed by the source, whether it be a music server or turntable, then those qualities are also compromised once they reach the speakers.

As for exactly why high power CPUs sound better to my ears, any answers that I offer would be purely speculative but the answers already provided by Emile are probably the best that I have seen. Yes, high power CPUs have the potential to create more noise which is why their use is counterintuitive but they are not the only source of noise in a music server. RAM is also a potential large source of noise and so when I asked Emile why he would use 48GB of RAM in the Extreme, this is what he said to me in a private e-mail and it really addresses both high power CPUs and RAM:

"Well RAM is a topic on its own, to start with, the 2 cpu’s are split into domains (NUMA / SNC), so you really have 2 x 6 dimms, 6 for each CPU, they are not shared. Music services have their own cpu/dimms and the OS has its own cpu/dims. So its sort of a core and endpoint into a single machine going beyond just core allocations for individual processes. These Ram modules are a custom order type, similar to the Apacer types popular in the Jplay forums, but taking it just a bit further. They do create less noise and draw less current then other offerings. If more dimms reduce performance, it typically means your power supply is negatively impacted by the increased current draw. As occupying more memory channels increases bandwidth and reduces wait states, you do get better individual process performance." "What you really want to do is reduce your hardware active processing times as much as possible. The net effect is much like a class A amplifier, you have a higher baseline power consumption, but power draw does not vary much, and this is very good for a more “natural/relaxed” sound. I hope this makes sense But you do need a power supply which is very comfortable supplying the load. You really want the least possible variation in load, and higher cpu power / bandwidth systems are better at that with very low load music playback processes."

This mirrors my own experience with regards to power supplies. As I experimented with endpoints with low power ARM processors and moved on to Celerons/Pentiums and then to embedded 4-core i7s within NUCs, a 6-core i7-8700T with a TDP of 35w, an i7-8700K with a TDP of 95w, and most recently a 12-core AMD Ryzen 3900X with a TDP of 105w, as I already posted, dynamics and staging improved but so did harshness. Like you, I have power supplies that have been custom made for me by Sean Jacobs. I have also tried supplies from HDPlex, Teddy Pardo, Sbooster, Uptone Audio, Kenneth Lau, and others but the one I prefer by a large margin are the dual regulated linear power supplies by Paul Hynes from Scotland. These supplies have a line rejection of about -150dB and using this type of supply to power my CPU, provided that I kept CPU temps <50 degrees C, harshness essentially disappeared to the extent that these high power CPUs now sound no harsher than the ARM-based endpoints that I have.

Now, to answer your question about correcting incoming noise before it reaches the server, yes, this is still important and like you, I am very OCD about this. I run multiple dedicated 20 and 30A lines to my listening room with 6awg specialized wire in my walls. I use high conductance outlets. I have tried AC regenerators including the PS Audio P20 (which I did not like) and have tried completely disassociating my system from mains with a Stromtank (which had no positive impact in my system). I have tried isolation transformers and balanced power supplies like the Equitech Son of Q. I have gone through a gamut of line conditioners including a Tchaik 6, Audience aR6-TSSOX, Shunyata Triton V3, Niagara 7000, and Synergistic PowerCell 12 UEF SE only to find that none of these came close to a Sound Application Reference TT-7 by Jim Weil. Power cords, don't get me started but basically I prefer the Pro Series cords from High Fidelity Cables. As for my network, my incoming cable internet feed is transformer isolated, my modem/router has had its clocks replaced by SOtM and is being powered by a Paul Hynes SR7. I am using stacked SOtM sNH-10G network switches (one is a dirty switch and the other is the clean switch) that until recently, were being clocked by a Mutec Ref10 master clock and these switches are also being powered by supplies from Paul Hynes. I have incorporated the Startech SFP modules that Emile recommends and so my 2 switches are presently connected by fiber. As for Ethernet cabling, you prefer the ones from Synergistic Research, my preference is for the SOtM dCBL-CAT7 but this will all be converted to fiber once my Extreme arrives. Despite all these measures, do high power CPUs still matter. Yes, empathically, yes.
 

spiritofmusic

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OMG, Romaz! And i thought it was ME who went the extra mile w 16mm SWA feed to 8kVA balanced power transformer and dedicated Oyaides to Furutech duplexes, a full loom of Sablon cables, 18 upgraded SR fuses and full Entreq grounding. I comparison to you, not so much Lol.

A serious Q...if it truly takes SO much trouble to get streaming to perform, so many steps to shield RF/EMI, so much computer power which then by definition produces swathes of noise, isn't some of the joy taken out of streaming as a concept?

Ie, don't you and others at all miss the relative simplicity of cd/sacd? One or two dedicated lines to transport and dac, a couple of good power cords, that green felt tip pen, and you were good to go.

I look at the efforts you've made, and it seems way more complex than optimisation in any other facet of high end audio.
 

Steve Williams

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Ie, don't you and others at all miss the relative simplicity of cd/sacd? One or two dedicated lines to transport and dac, a couple of good power cords, that green felt tip pen, and you were good to go.

Marc
I was every bit as reluctant as you

it is every bit as easy if not easier than spinning a disk It is the speed of access using the Extreme that I find amazing.

TBH the most difficult thing “I” had with the Extreme was lifting it from the floor to the shelf :)
 
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Rhapsody

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OMG, Romaz! And i thought it was ME who went the extra mile w 16mm SWA feed to 8kVA balanced power transformer and dedicated Oyaides to Furutech duplexes, a full loom of Sablon cables, 18 upgraded SR fuses and full Entreq grounding. I comparison to you, not so much Lol.

A serious Q...if it truly takes SO much trouble to get streaming to perform, so many steps to shield RF/EMI, so much computer power which then by definition produces swathes of noise, isn't some of the joy taken out of streaming as a concept?

Ie, don't you and others at all miss the relative simplicity of cd/sacd? One or two dedicated lines to transport and dac, a couple of good power cords, that green felt tip pen, and you were good to go.

I look at the efforts you've made, and it seems way more complex than optimisation in any other facet of high end audio.

Not to answer for Roma, BUT, my experience has been that streaming has changed the overall musical experience exponentially for me. When I used to listen to CD's/SACD's or even DSD files, yes everything sounded good, BUT my musical experience was no where near what it was since I started streaming.

I get lost for hours, if in the mood, of listening and discovering music that I NEVER would have encountered if it were not for Tidal/Qobuz. I would never listen to a cd at this point for musical enjoyment. In my system(s), it would like "why would I do that". The streaming sounds incredible and it opens the glorious selection of music at my fingertips. Color me a goner with respect to streaming.
 

bonzo75

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If there is anyone who can allow me to compare any of:

Aurender
LDMS
SGM
Antipodes
Lumin
Innuos
good CD transport

Please PM. I will travel. So far I have only a reference to the Aurender compared to auralic and the original SGM 2015 at Bill's compared to his auralic which was 5 years ago, and not relevant today.
 

Taiko Audio

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If there is anyone who can allow me to compare any of:

Aurender
LDMS
SGM
Antipodes
Lumin
Innuos
good CD transport

Please PM. I will travel. So far I have only a reference to the Aurender compared to auralic and the original SGM 2015 at Bill's compared to his auralic which was 5 years ago, and not relevant today.

audioquattr has an Extreme, Aurender W20 and the Pacific. I think you might find his system worthy of a visit. He’s a 30 minute drive away from us, I could demonstrate various stages of “CPU power” systems ramping up to “Extreme” level. The differences are quite obvious.

Volent in HK has several servers / streamers in his showroom, SGM EVO, SGM Extreme, Innuos Statement, The Memory Player and I think even a Lumin. It’s quite a travel though lots to see there. Me and Edward are planning to visit HK after the Chinese new year, you’re welcome to tag along.
 
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bonzo75

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audioquattr has an Extreme, Aurender W20 and the Pacific. I think you might find his system worthy of a visit. He’s a 30 minute drive away from us, I could demonstrate various stages of “CPU power” systems ramping up to “Extreme” level. The differences are quite obvious.

Volent in HK has several servers / streamers in his showroom, SGM EVO, SGM Extreme, Innuos Statement, The Memory Player and I think even a Lumin. It’s quite a travel though lots to see there. Me and Edward are planning to visit HK after the Chinese new year, you’re welcome to tag along.

Yes I have visited AQ twice but last I visited he did not have Extreme great to know he has both as his digital set up was quite transparent showing through changes easily.
 
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matthias

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When I used to listen to CD's/SACD's or even DSD files, yes everything sounded good, BUT my musical experience was no where near what it was since I started streaming.
I get lost for hours, if in the mood, of listening and discovering music that I NEVER would have encountered if it were not for Qobuz. I would never listen to a cd at this point for musical enjoyment. In my system(s), it would like "why would I do that". The streaming sounds incredible and it opens the glorious selection of music at my fingertips.

+1

Matt
 
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