You also need to make sure to test clean versus wide on T+A settings - I preferred clean (piano upper register more natural to me).
T+A 1- bit converters in the PDP-3000HV and DAC 8 DSD
- Thread starter EuroDriver
- Start date
You also need to make sure to test clean versus wide on T+A settings - I preferred clean (piano upper register more natural to me).
Sorry, don't know who Marc Coles is. I was just wondering if any of you guys tried this DAC with headphones.
He is a member of this forum: Sablon Audio (also happens to be dealer for SGM and Lampi) http://www.whatsbestforum.com/member.php?6908-Sablon-Audio
Hi Lotriwer, I've been doing some listening for a few months using my HE1000 phones driven by the TA dac whilst my Taiko monoblocks were away for review. It is quite decent sounding given the low price of the dac and has a good level of drive for these headphones. If however you are looking for inspiration, then your search should continue. To this end, I had a Microzotl arrive earlier this week and look forward to having a play with that!
I will be getting a DSD Dac 8 for a while as I am building a win 10 pro based system friend who will use this dac in a mega buck system to play all music at DSD512. I noted in the manual that there appears to be 2 windows drivers for this dac, so to play primarily, and this will probably be almost 100%, DSD512 what drivers does this Dac need, Just the ASIO or both? Also I have a full level 1 (Ric Schultz) modded Gustard X20u with the addition of a USB to I2S card that has the xmos U216 chip which handles DSD512 and I have also soldered in a OCXO 100 MHz clock much closer to the dual mono ESS9018 chips which significantly improves on the Gustards stock clock. I will obviously be comparing this modest, under $1500 dac with all mods and external PSU's, to the T&A. I was blown away by DSD512 when I finally got it to work smoothly. Like reported here the difference between DSD256 and 512 is not subtle the music becomes much more alive, the noise floor drops and the leading edges are much better defined giving you the you are there dynamics both micro and macro. Separation and that holographic 3D stage is the best I have heard, I am addicted.
ASIO only is fine.
I don't think there is a big difference between DSD256 and 512 in the format itself.
The difference you may hear resides in how your DAC system behaves internally with the frequency change and how you react to it. Maybe you initially were hearing your system behaving not at its best or, on the other hand, it may introduce more jitter at higher playback frequency and you actually prefer it (it wouldn't be surprising).
So below are my comments on the T&A Dac 8 DSD vs. my very heavily modified Gustard X20u. I apologize for copying my comments from another forum but it is so long I hate to re-type.
I have (had) a T&A Dac 8 DSD in house. I was building a audio PC for a friend to incorporate, Roon, HQ player, Tidal and Audio Fidelizger so he could move into audio streaming after his very old Meridian Sooloos bit the dust. Well I had the Dac for approximately 20 days and ran it a little over 200 hours with music signal which 99.5% was at DSD512. Of course I compared it to my very heavily modified Gustard which has full Level 1 mod, a DIYinHK DSD512 USB to I2S card and a Abracon OCXO 100mHz clock soldered at the coax tower with a Acko regulator in front of it to provide clean power. Both the DSD card and Acko regulators are powered from external PSU's. My dac is fully DSD512 capable and is very stable at that resolution. As far as I know I am the only one who is getting DSD512 from this dac, at least in the forums I follow.
DSD512 is where the magic happens, going from DSD128-DSD256 is a subtle but nice jump, going from 256 to 512 is strangely a huge jump, one that I have no real technical explanation for. Common sense says you have a music file which is, most likely, 16/44.1 redbook resolution and you take this file and with the magic of HQ Player upsample it many, many times to DSD512. How can that improve it? If I have a photo at say 720P resolution and I suddenly increase (upsample) it to 4K resolution wouldn't the pixels now be more obvious, wouldn't it look worse? Strangely that does not happen when up sampling music and 512 is just more real, more being at the event than listening to a recording of the event. Background noise is lower, way lower (not measured) transparency is then obviously greater, leading edges better defined, bass becomes more focused and impactful, separation of the performers is greater and more 3D. Some very good recordings have made me gasp at how real the voice, guitar or violin can be. Almost eerie. I love it and I am never going back.
On my very first listen to the T&A at 512, it was not apples to apples (to the X20). The dac had a cheap power cord, and a stock USB cable, I did not have Roon or Audio Fidelizer pro on it. The dac also had just a few hours on it and it sounded thin and un-involving. As the hours on it increased and my work to make the comparison as close as possible continued I was finally ready to compare. Both dacs had the same power cable, the T&A had a slightly better USB cable from the same manufacture. Both Dacs had Roon, HQ Player and Audio Fidelizger Pro. Each dac was run from separate PC's but both PC's used Gigabyte MB's with Dac-UP USB out, seasonic PSU's and Win10 pro and the same power cords plugged into the same conditioner.. The Gustard was its usual very involving self, I just love the way it plays back music at DSD512. The T&A became a refinement of the Gustard they were close and I'll bet a lot of untrained folks would struggle to hear the difference. It had a bit quieter background, transparency was up a notch, leading edges had a bit more definition bass had more detail. where the pluck of a double bass string the resonance of it in wood body was more evident that with the Gustard, thou it may not of had the weight (close tho) that the X20 has. Also the separation and 3D placement of musicians was a bit more obvious. It also felt just a bit more real than the Gustard, less recorded more there. Now these are just subtle differences that I bet a lot of folks would not be aware of, but differences non-the-less that audiophiles pay huge $ for those type of gains. On another night I swapped the better USB cable on the T&A with the next one down the line in the Gustard, the gap closed slightly but I still give the nod to the T&A. I suspect if I decide to pop for the $400+ Pulsar OCXO clock the gap would almost vanish. For $4K the T&A may be the best sounding DSD512 Dac available and it is 44k and 48k compatible unlike the gustard which is only 44K. What that means is a 48K based files (24/48,96,192) is up sampled to 24.6 Mhz and a 44.1 file is up sampled to 22.6 mHz so in HQ Player you can check auto rate family which will lessen the CPU/GPU load somewhat. The Gustard will upsamaple 48K based files to 22.6, which increases CPU load as it essentially has to down sample from 24.6 to 22.6 mHz.
Tuesday I packed the T&A up to send to my buddy and next week I fly to install his new PC and T&A and it goes into a state of the art analog system with a modified struder reel to reel with very high quality tapes, and a SME30MK2 TT with top of the line dynavector cartridge. So we will see where the T&A at DSD512 fits into that picture. Last night I had to listen to just my Gustard and was not disappointed, it still is very involving, very transparent and very real like. Like I said they are close but ultimately if I had to choose just one cost not a consideration I pick the T&A. The consolation prize is not bad tho.
I have (had) a T&A Dac 8 DSD in house. I was building a audio PC for a friend to incorporate, Roon, HQ player, Tidal and Audio Fidelizger so he could move into audio streaming after his very old Meridian Sooloos bit the dust. Well I had the Dac for approximately 20 days and ran it a little over 200 hours with music signal which 99.5% was at DSD512. Of course I compared it to my very heavily modified Gustard which has full Level 1 mod, a DIYinHK DSD512 USB to I2S card and a Abracon OCXO 100mHz clock soldered at the coax tower with a Acko regulator in front of it to provide clean power. Both the DSD card and Acko regulators are powered from external PSU's. My dac is fully DSD512 capable and is very stable at that resolution. As far as I know I am the only one who is getting DSD512 from this dac, at least in the forums I follow.
DSD512 is where the magic happens, going from DSD128-DSD256 is a subtle but nice jump, going from 256 to 512 is strangely a huge jump, one that I have no real technical explanation for. Common sense says you have a music file which is, most likely, 16/44.1 redbook resolution and you take this file and with the magic of HQ Player upsample it many, many times to DSD512. How can that improve it? If I have a photo at say 720P resolution and I suddenly increase (upsample) it to 4K resolution wouldn't the pixels now be more obvious, wouldn't it look worse? Strangely that does not happen when up sampling music and 512 is just more real, more being at the event than listening to a recording of the event. Background noise is lower, way lower (not measured) transparency is then obviously greater, leading edges better defined, bass becomes more focused and impactful, separation of the performers is greater and more 3D. Some very good recordings have made me gasp at how real the voice, guitar or violin can be. Almost eerie. I love it and I am never going back.
On my very first listen to the T&A at 512, it was not apples to apples (to the X20). The dac had a cheap power cord, and a stock USB cable, I did not have Roon or Audio Fidelizer pro on it. The dac also had just a few hours on it and it sounded thin and un-involving. As the hours on it increased and my work to make the comparison as close as possible continued I was finally ready to compare. Both dacs had the same power cable, the T&A had a slightly better USB cable from the same manufacture. Both Dacs had Roon, HQ Player and Audio Fidelizger Pro. Each dac was run from separate PC's but both PC's used Gigabyte MB's with Dac-UP USB out, seasonic PSU's and Win10 pro and the same power cords plugged into the same conditioner.. The Gustard was its usual very involving self, I just love the way it plays back music at DSD512. The T&A became a refinement of the Gustard they were close and I'll bet a lot of untrained folks would struggle to hear the difference. It had a bit quieter background, transparency was up a notch, leading edges had a bit more definition bass had more detail. where the pluck of a double bass string the resonance of it in wood body was more evident that with the Gustard, thou it may not of had the weight (close tho) that the X20 has. Also the separation and 3D placement of musicians was a bit more obvious. It also felt just a bit more real than the Gustard, less recorded more there. Now these are just subtle differences that I bet a lot of folks would not be aware of, but differences non-the-less that audiophiles pay huge $ for those type of gains. On another night I swapped the better USB cable on the T&A with the next one down the line in the Gustard, the gap closed slightly but I still give the nod to the T&A. I suspect if I decide to pop for the $400+ Pulsar OCXO clock the gap would almost vanish. For $4K the T&A may be the best sounding DSD512 Dac available and it is 44k and 48k compatible unlike the gustard which is only 44K. What that means is a 48K based files (24/48,96,192) is up sampled to 24.6 Mhz and a 44.1 file is up sampled to 22.6 mHz so in HQ Player you can check auto rate family which will lessen the CPU/GPU load somewhat. The Gustard will upsamaple 48K based files to 22.6, which increases CPU load as it essentially has to down sample from 24.6 to 22.6 mHz.
Tuesday I packed the T&A up to send to my buddy and next week I fly to install his new PC and T&A and it goes into a state of the art analog system with a modified struder reel to reel with very high quality tapes, and a SME30MK2 TT with top of the line dynavector cartridge. So we will see where the T&A at DSD512 fits into that picture. Last night I had to listen to just my Gustard and was not disappointed, it still is very involving, very transparent and very real like. Like I said they are close but ultimately if I had to choose just one cost not a consideration I pick the T&A. The consolation prize is not bad tho.
Not sure what forums you follow but I have been getting 512 without a hitch for months now.
@Priaptor yea, like cheating with T&A, just plug and play with HQP and magic DSD512. Gustard a bit more work.
Ric pretty sure you know what I did, paragraph 2 of my post goes over the item needed (DIYinHK DSD card, 768K they call it). There is a schematic to the USB I2S lines in Post 933 in the X20 thread on Head fi. Connect the Card to the I2S lines and add power. The Clock is just far superior to the coax cable as you know and the Abracon is superior to the Crystek.
Ric pretty sure you know what I did, paragraph 2 of my post goes over the item needed (DIYinHK DSD card, 768K they call it). There is a schematic to the USB I2S lines in Post 933 in the X20 thread on Head fi. Connect the Card to the I2S lines and add power. The Clock is just far superior to the coax cable as you know and the Abracon is superior to the Crystek.
Great review Quadman, I haven't heard the Gustard yet, how much improvement do you think the modding brought to the stock unit?
I can attest that the T+A is awesome and I would like to add a little comparo to a real heavyweight I made a few weeks ago, also copied from another forum ;-)
Last week I had the honor to host a TotalDac six as my guest, not the tube version but the transistor one.
This was a rather lucky coincident, because normally this unit is way outside my financial happy-zone.
However, the loaned TotalDAC was part of a big DAC shootout and after the event took place, I was able to integrate it in my system, if only for a few days before it had to go back to France.
To be completely honest, after the shootout I had very little hope that the TotalDAC would be an adequate match to my system.
We had a plethora of high end DACs available (Lampizator 7, tuned Linn, PS Audio DS, T+A, Artistic Fidelity, Soekris, Lynx and the TotalDAC) and were able to compare those (via A/D conversion) to a master tape copy.
Strangely enough, the TotalDAC was one of the worst contenders in this field, although being by far the most expensive.
However, having heard Vincent's DACs at various shows before, I just couldn't get my head around what I heard, leaving me with the conclusion that something in the shootout wasn't to the TotalDACs liking.
Possible explanations could be that the unit wasn't fully burnt in or that the TotalDAC is sensible to certain cables or power issues - I don't know.
To make a long story short, what I heard at home was so completely different than at the shootout, it was an ear-opener.
My system consists of a T+A DAC8 DSD - running of course in DSD512 mode. From there I go directly in my Gryphon Antileon Signature amp, which drives a pair of MBL 116. The system is Entreq'ed, cables are from Sablon and Gold Note and power conditioning is handled by Vibex.
Because I listen exclusively to digital, I refuse to invest in a preamp and instead look for DACs with a competent output stage and volume control. The T+A has a resistor based vc, the TotalDAC handles vc in the digital domain.
All my files were upsampled via HQPlayer to either DSD512 or high res PCM for the TotalDAC.
So, what did I hear?
The TotalDAC is a very relaxed sounding DAC. Directly compared with my T+A, the noisefloor drops to almost non-existent levels. Considering that noisefloor is one of the hallmarks of the T+A, that is saying something.
IIRC, the French's noisefloor is at a record-setting -160db and I believe you can hear that.
Along with lower noisefloor, you get the usual suspects, like more resolution, more air around instruments and finer decays.
Additionally I found the TotalDAC to be the least fatiguing DAC I heard in my system by a comfortable margin.
That includes DACs like Lampizator, Electrocompaniet, Lector, PS Audio and my resident T+A.
I could listen for hours without feeling the urge to stop. Great stuff.
In a nutshell, the TotalDAC sounded simply pleasant and very appealing.
The comparison with my T+A was very interesting, because I believe both are targeted to different customer groups, as the sound is very different.
The T+A makes music exciting, raising the adrenaline level and delivers the wow-factor.
It sounds bigger and more dynamic in an absolute manner (although I consider the TotalDAC to be the winner in the micro-dynamic discipline).
Also the bass goes lower and is more powerful, but less refined and articulated.
A friend of mine said that - based purely on sonics - 60% or 70% of all audiophiles would prefer the TotalDAC, the rest would choose the T+A.
Generally I would agree, but I made a slight alteration for myself:
For 60%-70% of my music collection I would like to have the TotalDAC around, for the rest I would choose the T+A.
The TotalDAC is clearly the more refined DAC. However, when the music demands a kick in the behind, the T+A just makes it more fun and exciting. If I just want to relax and get lost in the music, I can think of no better choice than the TotalDAC.
Having both on tap would be my ultimate dream, choosing either one depending on the mood or the music material.
As this will probably not become reality, I'm more than happy with my T+A, especially considering the enormous price gap between both.
As a final word I would like to add, that I didn't felt the need for a preamp with both units at all.
Judging from the 6moons review, the tube output has to be more problematic with a direct connection to the poweramp.
As my Gryphon is very picky with who delivers the signal to him, I can attest that both the T+A and the TotalDAC are decent preamp replacements.
Christoph
I can attest that the T+A is awesome and I would like to add a little comparo to a real heavyweight I made a few weeks ago, also copied from another forum ;-)
Last week I had the honor to host a TotalDac six as my guest, not the tube version but the transistor one.
This was a rather lucky coincident, because normally this unit is way outside my financial happy-zone.
However, the loaned TotalDAC was part of a big DAC shootout and after the event took place, I was able to integrate it in my system, if only for a few days before it had to go back to France.
To be completely honest, after the shootout I had very little hope that the TotalDAC would be an adequate match to my system.
We had a plethora of high end DACs available (Lampizator 7, tuned Linn, PS Audio DS, T+A, Artistic Fidelity, Soekris, Lynx and the TotalDAC) and were able to compare those (via A/D conversion) to a master tape copy.
Strangely enough, the TotalDAC was one of the worst contenders in this field, although being by far the most expensive.
However, having heard Vincent's DACs at various shows before, I just couldn't get my head around what I heard, leaving me with the conclusion that something in the shootout wasn't to the TotalDACs liking.
Possible explanations could be that the unit wasn't fully burnt in or that the TotalDAC is sensible to certain cables or power issues - I don't know.
To make a long story short, what I heard at home was so completely different than at the shootout, it was an ear-opener.
My system consists of a T+A DAC8 DSD - running of course in DSD512 mode. From there I go directly in my Gryphon Antileon Signature amp, which drives a pair of MBL 116. The system is Entreq'ed, cables are from Sablon and Gold Note and power conditioning is handled by Vibex.
Because I listen exclusively to digital, I refuse to invest in a preamp and instead look for DACs with a competent output stage and volume control. The T+A has a resistor based vc, the TotalDAC handles vc in the digital domain.
All my files were upsampled via HQPlayer to either DSD512 or high res PCM for the TotalDAC.
So, what did I hear?
The TotalDAC is a very relaxed sounding DAC. Directly compared with my T+A, the noisefloor drops to almost non-existent levels. Considering that noisefloor is one of the hallmarks of the T+A, that is saying something.
IIRC, the French's noisefloor is at a record-setting -160db and I believe you can hear that.
Along with lower noisefloor, you get the usual suspects, like more resolution, more air around instruments and finer decays.
Additionally I found the TotalDAC to be the least fatiguing DAC I heard in my system by a comfortable margin.
That includes DACs like Lampizator, Electrocompaniet, Lector, PS Audio and my resident T+A.
I could listen for hours without feeling the urge to stop. Great stuff.
In a nutshell, the TotalDAC sounded simply pleasant and very appealing.
The comparison with my T+A was very interesting, because I believe both are targeted to different customer groups, as the sound is very different.
The T+A makes music exciting, raising the adrenaline level and delivers the wow-factor.
It sounds bigger and more dynamic in an absolute manner (although I consider the TotalDAC to be the winner in the micro-dynamic discipline).
Also the bass goes lower and is more powerful, but less refined and articulated.
A friend of mine said that - based purely on sonics - 60% or 70% of all audiophiles would prefer the TotalDAC, the rest would choose the T+A.
Generally I would agree, but I made a slight alteration for myself:
For 60%-70% of my music collection I would like to have the TotalDAC around, for the rest I would choose the T+A.
The TotalDAC is clearly the more refined DAC. However, when the music demands a kick in the behind, the T+A just makes it more fun and exciting. If I just want to relax and get lost in the music, I can think of no better choice than the TotalDAC.
Having both on tap would be my ultimate dream, choosing either one depending on the mood or the music material.
As this will probably not become reality, I'm more than happy with my T+A, especially considering the enormous price gap between both.
As a final word I would like to add, that I didn't felt the need for a preamp with both units at all.
Judging from the 6moons review, the tube output has to be more problematic with a direct connection to the poweramp.
As my Gryphon is very picky with who delivers the signal to him, I can attest that both the T+A and the TotalDAC are decent preamp replacements.
Christoph
@tsaett not familiar with the specs on the Total Dac, did you just play Hi rez PCM with total dac vs. DSD512 with the T&A? or can the Total Dac also do 512. Any way great write up.
The stock Gustard compared to mine would be almost unrecognizable. The stock has a great sound stage and wall of sound but lacks the detail (transparency, 3D placement, tonality, dynamics etc) that you get with a modded Gustard. Ric's level 1 mod I performed on a buddies dac and wrote about it in the forums comparing it to my full level 1 Dac as I completed each step. That was around early May. Since I got DSD512 stable with the DIY card and added a clock near the Dac Chips opposed to gustards method placing a clock far away and using a coax cable with line driver to send the signal to the chips, that trick I picked up from @Simonbromely, who was spot on with his assessment of it and the Abracon clock I got the idea from @b0bb from his thread about the LKS dac in which he has quite a nice write up on various clocks. Thanks to Ric and those two mentioned I have one heck of a dac that cost about $1500 all parts included.
The stock Gustard compared to mine would be almost unrecognizable. The stock has a great sound stage and wall of sound but lacks the detail (transparency, 3D placement, tonality, dynamics etc) that you get with a modded Gustard. Ric's level 1 mod I performed on a buddies dac and wrote about it in the forums comparing it to my full level 1 Dac as I completed each step. That was around early May. Since I got DSD512 stable with the DIY card and added a clock near the Dac Chips opposed to gustards method placing a clock far away and using a coax cable with line driver to send the signal to the chips, that trick I picked up from @Simonbromely, who was spot on with his assessment of it and the Abracon clock I got the idea from @b0bb from his thread about the LKS dac in which he has quite a nice write up on various clocks. Thanks to Ric and those two mentioned I have one heck of a dac that cost about $1500 all parts included.
Well, congrats then, seems like a great option if you have the necessary soldering skills!
The TotalDAC was PCM only, there is however a DSD module available for little cost (But I think only up to 128). I don't know how it compares, but TotalDAC is famous for PCM playback, so I guess I already heard it at it's best.
I chose 24-176/192 depending on source material with HQP's Auto function.
Nevertheless, I think DSD512 is the most cost-effective way of hearing high quality music today. (TotalDAC costs 13.000€)
Cheers
The TotalDAC was PCM only, there is however a DSD module available for little cost (But I think only up to 128). I don't know how it compares, but TotalDAC is famous for PCM playback, so I guess I already heard it at it's best.
I chose 24-176/192 depending on source material with HQP's Auto function.
Nevertheless, I think DSD512 is the most cost-effective way of hearing high quality music today. (TotalDAC costs 13.000€)
Cheers
And that is with a "stock" T+A. Imagine how much better it would sound if tweaked.....say using an external 130 watt split bobbin transformer instead of the puny 15 watt jobbie inside.....add a bunch of Quantum chips, better jacks, damping, etc. and you have another level of sound. Not that anyone would do this.....except me, if I owned one. Just saying. What I hope to see soon are DACs that can only do DSD and of course, do 512. If you took out the PCM stuff in the T+A they could sell if for less. Make it in China and it would be $1000. It won't be long before this happens. Anyone who spends more than $4000 for a DAC today is either really wealthy or does not mind their one year old DAC being beaten for way, way less (very soon). The new AKM and ESS DAC chips are in the hands of the Chinese right now. The AKM chips can be used in a way that eliminates most of the DAC when playing DSD. The new ESS 9038 is suppose to be much better than the 9018 used in the Gustard, etc. now. Exciting times ahead without breaking the bank!
Bye the way, there is a new Oppo DAC coming in Dec. with wireless streaming, software for your remote, usb hard drive inputs, the new ESS 9038 DAC chip and even an analog input for $800. However, I doubt it will do 512DSD. Lucky if they give us 256. Of course, I will be modding it.
Bye the way, there is a new Oppo DAC coming in Dec. with wireless streaming, software for your remote, usb hard drive inputs, the new ESS 9038 DAC chip and even an analog input for $800. However, I doubt it will do 512DSD. Lucky if they give us 256. Of course, I will be modding it.
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