System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

[NorthStar]

I have read quite a bit here; and we have a "protective" mechanism inside that makes us react the way we do when challenged aggressively.
Don't blame Mike for his 'defensive' style occasionally...look @ where it comes from first.

Take the x-over out of your loudspeaker, and install a new upgraded one. Do that, and that'll be a great step in real advancement.
Don't do it, and you'll never know what you're missing.

The unbiased truth...

My opinion is just that, my own opinion. I think I see very clearly all around me, and we adapt with our surroundings. ...Not easy to let go of our prejudices, misconceptions, misunderstandings, not easy to let go of the past and live today for a better tomorrow. We are weak as a human race, we let our emotions take control and blind our perspective.

On the internet there shouldn't be any emotion, we should be like perfect oiled machines, well designed robots with high artificial intelligence.
That's the real future...

 

[RBFC]

I'm truly sorry that you see it this way. I don't believe that there are many successful businesses that haven't paid attention to customer response. There have been many complaints filed to us, and it is not productive to state that you bear zero responsibility for this attitude. Note that your knowledge and passion are not in question (you were given your own personal forum), only the method in which you carry discussions. That is an important distinction. I would suggest you read your last post again to see how your choice of words can bring controversy. After all, you may consider this practice for winning over clients/customers.

Lee

 

[NorthStar]

+1000

I doubt though that Mike will listen. It's always someone else's fault, never his own.

Al, how can it be? ...Don't doubt, start believing, and you'll be the first one to see the light and give it too. :b

* If one thousand people accuse one person, and condemn him; does it make him automatically guilty?
Lol, innocent people are sent to jail every single day on our planet. And only to realize it later on when it's too late to truly care.

 

[Blizzard]

Al, how can it be? ...Don't doubt, start believing, and you'll be the first one to see the light and give it too. :b

* If one thousand people accuse one person, and condemn him; does it make him automatically guilty?
Lol, innocent people are sent to jail every single day on our planet. And only to realize it later on when it's too late to truly care.

what you need to do to be successful in this business is:

A) Stay off public forums.
B) Hire a great salesman to tell everyone what they want to hear.
C) Reap the rewards of complying to the desires of the masses.

That about sums it up. If you can't beat them Join them

 

[Al M.]

Al, how can it be? ...Don't doubt, start believing, and you'll be the first one to see the light and give it too. :b

I always assume the best in people -- until they show that they don't deserve that assumption.

You appear to be the ONLY person in this discussion that has no problem with Mike's attitude.

Mike and his accusations of other WBF members (remember, it's always someone else's fault...) reminds me of the following story:

An acquaintance of mine was complaining that all of his room mates in college were jerks, and it never worked out between him and them. After patiently hearing him out I thought to myself: hmm, there always seemed to have been a problem with others, but wait ... perhaps there is something wrong with YOU instead because you were the only constant in this story, while all the people around you were others each time...

 

[NorthStar]

We were put on this planet to be loved by everybody. :b ...that's the main reason why we're here. ...Our right to express ourselves freely is only as good as the love we get from everybody around.

Total freedom seems to be a very lonely life to me. ...And for many others too. ...But it doesn't have to, if we start building with the right word's compositions, awareness of all the different views, acceptance of being unaccepted within the circle of friends, trust.

* I have to see 'The Revenant' with Leo getting "munched" by the bear. ...The mother bear protecting her babies. ...Leo just happened to be in the wrong trail @ the wrong time...that's all...and he escaped with about 1% life still left in him! :b ...Moma bear thought he was dead for good.

That's life, natural animal instinct, and humans are just another animal species. ...With very little use of their brain. ...With very little control of their emotions.
And music lovers they are aware of that...a little.

? We determine who we are by what we do. - Agent 90 (quatre-vingt-dix)

 

[Blizzard]

For example, from the Chinese DAC thread:



1. Your arrogance shines through in this post because you assume things about turntables when you clearly have no clue what difference they can make -- you haven't even heard SOTA analog. Again, a bit of humility would go a long way. I assumed stuff about analog too that turned out not to be true once I heard it. But I kept an open mind about it and changed my mind accordingly, following the evidence.

2. You said in this post: "So I wouldn't expect much interest in this." You already assume the worst from your potential audience, not a good way to start.

3. You made that post unprovoked. So YOU were the one who brought on the negativity, not others.

Well

1: It was true

2: It was a response to the mass hysteria of whining going on in analog corner at the time. Which all stemmed from me discussing technology that will render old school gear obsolete. Which is also true.

So basically the truth is frowned upon, unless it is the opinion of the majority. Which is something that's true with any topic. It's called herd mentality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

 

[treitz3]

Dude, who pissed in your Wheaties? Take a breath man.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

Back to 10K system? ...The serious stuff. :b

 

[PeterA]

Well


2: It was a response to the mass hysteria of whining going on in analog corner at the time. Which all stemmed from me discussing technology that will render old school gear obsolete. Which is also true.

This may be relevant to this thread. I am not offended by your reference to the gear which I choose for sonic reasons as old school gear being rendered obsolete. I am just waiting for the evidence. The technology that you discussed at that time is, in your opinion, SOTA digital in 2016 and perhaps appropriate for this $10K system on which this thread is based . A fellow WBF member will soon have your recommended digital source. I, and others, will directly compare it to his SOTA analog source. I do not suspect that there will be any mass hysteria or whining going on, regardless of the results.

I also do not suspect that his analog source will be rendered obsolete after the listening session, which means "no longer being made or used or relevant". Turntables will continue to be designed and made. Vinyl records will continue to be produced. I do not think anything will be rendered obsolete by this 2016 SOTA digital gear. This level of digital may be more accurate to the recording, but it may or may not sound more convincing, natural, or like real music. It may or may not be preferred in the market place. Your pronouncement is your prediction, nothing more. It is not a fact. If it even comes close, then yes, it would be a great thing for the hobby, especially for audiophiles looking to assemble a nice system for under $10k. The software will have to follow, and it will have to be adopted by some critical number of people to catch on.

I think the proof will be in the listening and in the market response and not in the supposition based on specifications and lack of real world listening comparisons. Time will tell.

 

[Blizzard]

This may be relevant to this thread. I am not offended by your reference to the gear which I choose for sonic reasons as old school gear being rendered obsolete. I am just waiting for the evidence. The technology that you discussed at that time is, in your opinion, SOTA digital in 2016 and perhaps appropriate for this $10K system on which this thread is based . A fellow WBF member will soon have your recommended digital source. I, and others, will directly compare it to his SOTA analog source. I do not suspect that there will be any mass hysteria or whining going on, regardless of the results.

I also do not suspect that his analog source will be rendered obsolete after the listening session, which means "no longer being made or used or relevant". Turntables will continue to be designed and made. Vinyl records will continue to be produced. I do not think anything will be rendered obsolete by this 2016 SOTA digital gear. This level of digital may be more accurate to the recording, but it may or may not sound more convincing, natural, or like real music. It may or may not be preferred in the market place. Your pronouncement is your prediction, nothing more. It is not a fact. If it even comes close, then yes, it would be a great thing for the hobby, especially for audiophiles looking to assemble a nice system for under $10k. The software will have to follow, and it will have to be adopted by some critical number of people to catch on.

I think the proof will be in the listening and in the market response and not in the supposition based on specifications and lack of real world listening comparisons. Time will tell.

Well what I'm saying is it won't be long before a $500 DAC will take you to at least the level of that $100K phono setup. The new ESS 9038 chip was just unveiled at CES. It's going to make it possible for quality beyond the NADAC in sub $1000 DAC's. So keep that in mind when you're comparing the $11500 DAC with the $100K phono. The NADAC does use a 10 year old DAC chip in it.

Q3 2016 we will be seeing these new DACs, along with a pile of new DAC's utilizing the new AKM 4497 chip as well. RMAF will be an interesting year this year

So maybe not obsolete, just people won't be buying them for the sound advantage anymore. By 2020, it's going to be a completely different world. We are going to have DAC quality in smartphones and tablets soon that rival several $1k DAC's today.

But of course we also need the source music to work with to make the best of this. Well the ADC's keep getting cheaper and better. It won't be long before everything out there on tape is transferred to digital using the latest modern gear. If it was originally digitally sourced, and not very good like much of the stuff from the early 80's to today, it will also suffer this problem if on vinyl.

It won't be long before there simply isn't crappy digital recordings anymore because even the lowest end studio gear will be phenomenal.
We have leading edge companies like ESS and AKM that are going to ensure this.

 

[PeterA]

Well what I'm saying is it won't be long before a $500 DAC will take you to at least the level of that $100K phono setup. The new ESS 9038 chip was just unveiled at CES. It's going to make it possible for quality beyond the NADAC in sub $1000 DAC's. So keep that in mind when you're comparing the $11500 DAC with the $100K phono. The NADAC does use a 10 year old DAC chip in it.

Q3 2016 we will be seeing these new DACs, along with a pile of new DAC's utilizing the new AKM 4497 chip as well. RMAF will be an interesting year this year

So maybe not obsolete, just people won't be buying them for the sound advantage anymore. By 2020, it's going to be a completely different world. We are going to have DAC quality in smartphones and tablets soon that rival several $1k DAC's today.

But of course we also need the source music to work with to make the best of this. Well the ADC's keep getting cheaper and better. It won't be long before everything out there on tape is transferred to digital using the latest modern gear. If it was originally digitally sourced, and not very good like much of the stuff from the early 80's to today, it will also suffer this problem if on vinyl.

It won't be long before there simply isn't crappy digital recordings anymore because even the lowest end studio gear will be phenomenal.
We have leading edge companies like ESS and AKM that are going to ensure this.

That is good news! I just didn't want your pronouncement about obsolescence to go unchallenged. Everything can be qualified. Now the NADAC is old and expensive. OK, but I'll listen to the sound, regardless of price. Perhaps the less I know the better, but it was your recommendation just a few months ago and it should be actually heard in comparison to SOTA analog so that opinions can be valid. I realize it is a moving target and that better and cheaper are just around the corner. For others, it will then come down to price versus performance and the issue of value will be reexamined, I'm sure. The next technological revolution is tomorrow, as it always seems to be. The obsolescence or death of vinyl has long been predicted, yet improvements continue, just like in digital, and here we are. I just heard a Yarlung LP of the Janaki String Trio. It was outstanding. Apparently this is also available on digital.

You do mention the vital issue of software. There are still lots of CDs and LPs out there. It would be great if files take over the audiophile space and people dump all of there vinyl all over again. More buying opportunities for the Ludites. Better audio for the masses who crave convenience, and better audiophile digital. Exciting times indeed.

 

[Blizzard]

That is good news! I just didn't want your pronouncement about obsolescence to go unchallenged. Everything can be qualified. Now the NADAC is old and expensive. OK, but I'll listen to the sound, regardless of price. Perhaps the less I know the better, but it was your recommendation just a few months ago and it should be actually heard in comparison to SOTA analog so that opinions can be valid. I realize it is a moving target and that better and cheaper are just around the corner. For others, it will then come down to price versus performance and the issue of value will be reexamined, I'm sure. The next technological revolution is tomorrow, as it always seems to be. The obsolescence or death of vinyl has long been predicted, yet improvements continue, just like in digital, and here we are. I just heard a Yarlung LP of the Janaki String Trio. It was outstanding. Apparently this is also available on digital.

You do mention the vital issue of software. There are still lots of CDs and LPs out there. It would be great if files take over the audiophile space and people dump all of there vinyl all over again. More buying opportunities for the Ludites. Better audio for the masses who crave convenience, and better audiophile digital. Exciting times indeed.

Yes the "Janaki String Trio" is available as a quad DSD download made with the Merging Hapi from the same master tape as the vinyl. The Yarlung will be the reference material to use when making these comparisons.

As far the next wave of SOTA DAC's go. Even the cheap evaluation board for the ESS 9038pro, powered by a cheap SMPS, kills any DAC using the previous Sabre chips at any cost. The evaluation boards are just low cost boards for developers to buy, to play around with, and test the chip while designing their DAC's. The quality of the development boards is on par with sub $500 DAC's.

Here's a pic of the 9018 evaluation board for example.



Available here for $450

http://www.shawelectronics.com/ess-evaluation-boards-all.html

Soon the 9038pro boards will be on that list

 

[PeterA]

Yes the "Janaki String Trio" is available as a quad DSD download made with the Merging Hapi from the same master tape as the vinyl. The Yarlung will be the reference material to use when making these comparisons.

That is not my understanding. I just received this email from someone knowledgeable about the issue and this particular recording. He knows his analog and was once a wonderful contributor to this forum. Here is what he wrote:

You should remind Blizzard that Bob recorded the Janaki ST in parallel in analog and digital. Just like RR used to do. The digital release was not made from the analog tape. Just as the quad DSD was not made from the analog master.

This Yarlung recording is incredible. I just heard it in MadFloyd's system over the weekend on vinyl. It will be one of the reference recordings to which we listen when we do the direct comparison. There will be others. There are just not enough recordings on both DSD and LP. And besides, this is about which source sounds more believable and enjoyable in this system with the music we have on hand. A variety of recordings in multiple formats will be used, I'm sure.

 

[Blizzard]

That is not my understanding. I just received this email from someone knowledgeable about the issue and this particular recording. He knows his analog and was once a wonderful contributor to this forum. Here is what he wrote:

You should remind Blizzard that Bob recorded the Janaki ST in parallel in analog and digital. Just like RR used to do. The digital release was not made from the analog tape. Just as the quad DSD was not made from the analog master.

This Yarlung recording is incredible. I just heard it in MadFloyd's system over the weekend on vinyl. It will be one of the reference recordings to which we listen when we do the direct comparison. There will be others. There are just not enough recordings on both DSD and LP. And besides, this is about which source sounds more believable and enjoyable in this system with the music we have on hand. A variety of recordings in multiple formats will be used, I'm sure.

Perhaps your reliable source should re-check his information. Unless this information is incorrect:



https://yarlungrecords.nativedsd.com/albums/janaki

And for the Vinyl, was it cut direct to disk from the mic feeds?

 

[PeterA]

Perhaps your reliable source should re-check his information. Unless this information is incorrect:

And for the Vinyl, was it cut direct to disk from the mic feeds?

I don't know the answer to that question. Perhaps he is reading this thread and will chime in or email me. There seems to be some conflicting information. Thanks.

 

[Blizzard]

I don't know the answer to that question. Perhaps he is reading this thread and will chime in or email me. There seems to be some conflicting information. Thanks.

Maybe rather than correcting me, Steve Hoffman, Kevin Grey and Bob Attiyeh can be corrected.

 

[PeterA]

Maybe rather than correcting me, Steve Hoffman, Kevin Grey and Bob Attiyeh can be corrected.

I am happy to be corrected and may full well be the messenger of poor information. I was just passing along some information that was emailed to me. He also just wrote in response that it was Bob (perhaps Bob Attiyeh?) that told him this directly. So maybe it is a misprint or incorrect information on the label or his memory is false. I really don't know as I have no personal knowledge one way or the other about this matter. Sorry I got involved, and I apologize to you and all those concerned. I should not have acted as the proxy for a former member who has left this forum. My mistake. It is not the first time I have been wrong.

I am sorry Blizzard.

 

[Blizzard]

I am happy to be corrected and may full well be the messenger of poor information. I was just passing along some information that was emailed to me. He also just wrote in response that it was Bob (perhaps Bob Attiyeh?) that told him this directly. So maybe it is a misprint or incorrect information on the label or his memory is false. I really don't know as I have no personal knowledge one way or the other about this matter. Sorry I got involved, and I apologize to you and all those concerned. I should not have acted as the proxy for a former member who has left this forum. My mistake. It is not the first time I have been wrong.

I am sorry Blizzard.

Well we shouldn't shoot the messenger

If the Yarlung music page on NativeDSD is providing us with false information, they might have to look into that. It doesn't make any sense either way though because quad DSD recording tech wasn't available in 2006 when the recording was made anyways. Which means it would have been upsampled from PCM or single rate DSD. This is something that Yarlung Records would never do based on what I've heard about them.

 

[PeterA]

Well we shouldn't shoot the messenger

If the Yarlung music page on NativeDSD is providing us with false information, they might have to look into that. It doesn't make any sense either way though because quad DSD recording tech wasn't available in 2006 when the recording was made anyways. Which means it would have been upsampled from PCM or single rate DSD. This is something that Yarlung Records would never do based on what I've heard about them.

It seems possible that they made both a digital and tape recording simultaneously at that time, but feel that the new quad DSD sounds better coming from the tape master rather than the digital from that time, as you suggest. So perhaps there is some truth to both.

Incidentally, I just got an email from another former WBF member who thinks this might be the case based on what Yarlung and Mike Fremer have written, though it is ambiguous.

It's an interesting question: if they were both done from the same master tape, then the comparison is very direct. If they were done from different sources, then they are each once removed from the mic feed and additional differences are introduced to the chain. At least this is how I understand it. Happy to be corrected.