Swiss Digital Fuse Box Anyone?

Carlsbad

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Dec 11, 2022
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Anybody have a QSA audiophile fuse laying around that your aren't using right now? I'm working on a semi-formal evaluation of the SDFB and I'd like to have a QSA fuse to compare it to. I've auditioned the fuses before but don't have one available right now. I'd like to borrow one and return it.

I'm confident my little amp will not damage your fuse and will promise to replace it if it blows. PM me if you have one to contribute to the effort. thanks.

Jerry
 

ssfas

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Sep 13, 2023
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Anybody have a QSA audiophile fuse laying around that your aren't using right now? I'm working on a semi-formal evaluation of the SDFB and I'd like to have a QSA fuse to compare it to. I've auditioned the fuses before but don't have one available right now. I'd like to borrow one and return it.

I'm confident my little amp will not damage your fuse and will promise to replace it if it blows. PM me if you have one to contribute to the effort. thanks.

Jerry
I picked Mark up on this Swiss Fuse product elsewhere. He basically agreed that the marketing is based on fake science, misinformation, or whatever you want to call it.

The simple fact is that fuses don’t heat up appreciably in normal use. Look at the data for a 2A Littelfuse - at maximum current and rated current the voltage drop is 150mV, or 0.06%. That is totally inconsequential in the context of normal mains voltage variations. Most units don‘t draw anywhere near the rated current of the fuse.


The Swiss Fuse thing may have benefit for reasons not yet explained. Blanking out fuses with copper rod was a DIY thing, but it did run the risk of blowing up your hifi. The thing about high inrush current - there are specialist fuses to deal with that, which at least one manufacturer says replace at your peril.

Personally, I look on the audiophile fuse thing with detached amusement. QSA boasts decades of research with zero evidence, and their 13A fuse (the main type used in the UK because by law here all appliances must be supplied with a certified mains plug and fuse) is a relabelled Bussmann fuse.
 

Carlsbad

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@ssfas Reading your post I am sure we will never agree and I'm ok with that. I will take issue with a couple of things you said. First, you base your refutation of the viability of improving on fuse performance on the fact that fuses don't heat up at normal loads. This is true. Neither do resistors, capacitors, or inductors. but they influence sound. A fuse has to have a significant resistive load of it wouldn't heat up at specified current. We buy power cables the size of your wrist and then strain the electrons through a filiment the size of a human hair. Nope.

Second, I don't believe you understood mark correctly. He did not agree that his fuse box is snake oil. Not sure what you misinterpreted. I've talked to mark and he is very sharing of his technology with me because I am much more technical than the average user. He understands and believes in the technology behind it. I do too. I just would like to see a couple of more improvements. but it is 95% of the way there.

Jerry
 
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ssfas

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@ssfas Reading your post I am sure we will never agree and I'm ok with that. I will take issue with a couple of things you said. First, you base your refutation of the viability of improving on fuse performance on the fact that fuses don't heat up at normal loads. This is true. Neither do resistors, capacitors, or inductors. but they influence sound. A fuse has to have a significant resistive load of it wouldn't heat up at specified current. We buy power cables the size of your wrist and then strain the electrons through a filiment the size of a human hair. Nope.

Second, I don't believe you understood mark correctly. He did not agree that his fuse box is snake oil. Not sure what you misinterpreted. I've talked to mark and he is very sharing of his technology with me because I am much more technical than the average user. He understands and believes in the technology behind it. I do too. I just would like to see a couple of more improvements. but it is 95% of the way there.

Jerry
I understand that fuses are made from low resistance alloy with a high temperature coefficient so that when heating begins, the wires resistance increases causing a runaway condition where the wire melts rapidly. The wire is produced so that it will carry the rated current without appreciable heating or increase in resistance.

If you look at the table for Littelfuse cartridge fuses, you will see anyting used in a hifi system offers a very low resistance up to rated current. A 13A fuse offers 0.004 ohms resistance at room temperature.

Resistors, capacitors, or inductors are irrelevant. Fuses are relying on the metallurgy to fail. That's why fuses traditionally uses metals with very low melting points. Tin melts at 232c and lead at 327c. Copper in your mains cables melts at 1,085c.

You may buy power cables the size of your wrist, but lots of people like me don't. I use the very popular Puritan Ultimate cables, which are thin and floppy, but extremely well insulated.

As you are a technical person, you will appreciate the basic principle of UK safely fuses (usually 13A), which are found in every plug, and by law every appliance sold in the UK has to be fitted with a UK compliant fused plug, whether sold from China, USA or anywhere else. They are intended to prevent the power cable from overheating. The ISO specification for 13A flex is conductors with minimum cross-section of 1.25mm2. That's about 16AWG.

13A safety fuses are always ceramic with a silica fill. It's partly for safety if they do blow, but the silica is to dissipate heat because they are designed to be slow-blow. Because of the melting point of copper, they are intended to put up with a fairly long overcurrent without blowing.

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with a stock $5 power cord from a safety/heat/resistance perspective. There are international standards for the cable and it's not complicated.

The actual reply Mark sent me is copied below.

I personally did not feel like I was qualified “enough” to answer your very good questions and offer comment on your opinions. I asked for the team to review your post. There are a few Teams involved - We are a small group and there will be times when we will be behind. Apologies for being a bit tardy. We have Dev work going on for LSA, Vera-Fi and Bob Carver Corp all this week. Below please -

Mark:

Your customer makes a fair and intelligent argument, and is correct, at least as viewed from a macro perspective.

When viewed on the micro scale, there are resistance parameters that do change with heat on an instantaneous basis and these changes do matter. It is likely the reason for why any improved fuse sounds different. We know from our own testing that placing a grossly oversized fuse in a product needing only a much smaller value results in an audible improvement. The larger the replacement fuse, the better, all the way up to what you call “sluggo”, which is universally best.

To what would you attribute these differences? To us it is the result of micro-heating limiting the power supply’s access to transient current. There could also be the possibility that fuse element vibration is at play as well, but resistance is the only measurable phenomenon we can point to. That, however, does not mean it is the only difference.

Such is the nature of measurements and hifi.


I did not say this product is snake oil. What they say is they actually don't know how any improvement arises, but it's not the heating/resistance claimed on their website.

I have zero idea what micro-heating is. It seems irrelevant anyway because 13A is massively overrated for most audio appliances. My amplifier draws a maximum of 350w, about 1.5A, so the 13A fuse is never going to limit the current.

A specification for UK 13A fuses is that it must blow after a 1.9x 30 minute overcurrent, ie. it will sustain 24.7A for up to 30 minutes.
A 13A fuse will even sustain a 100A draw for 0.3 seconds, so I think you can forget the micro theory.
https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php

So these things may work, but it is unclear how or why.
 

ssfas

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You lost me at "lots of people like me don't". Jerry
So you missed the bit were he agreed to my refuting the "science" used to sell the product, and then comes up with some other ideas, but they don't really know why.

The "sluggo" thing has been around for years. They're called dummy fuses.
 

Carlsbad

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Dec 11, 2022
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So you missed the bit were he agreed to my refuting the "science" used to sell the product, and then comes up with some other ideas, but they don't really know why.

The "sluggo" thing has been around for years. They're called dummy fuses.
@ssfas I said in the beginning that we are not going to agree. I just want to exit this discussion peacefully without animosity. cheers.
 
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ssfas

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@ssfas I said in the beginning that we are not going to agree. I just want to exit this discussion peacefully without animosity. cheers.
No animosity.

Just that I did not call this thing snake oil and that Mark's technical colleagues did agree that the reasons used to promote this product are not valid and, having agreed that months ago, they remain on the website.

Most fuses seem to be massively over-specified. The only component I own with an external replaceable fuse is a streamer, factory fitted with a 2A fuse, but it probably never draws even 0.1A. I presume the fuse rating is determined by the internal power supply rather than the rest of the electronics. I've never seen a fuse as harmful or a limiting factor.

As to the obsession with big everything, cables the size of tree trunks (wrists is aiming a bit low) I've always thought that a macho thing. I much prefer small. I use these cables from my phono pre to main amplifier. These are the thick ones, the DIN cables to the phono pre are thinner.
Screenshot 2023-11-17 at 19.45.35.png
 

spiritofmusic

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Am I right in thinking these things need two power cords, your existing one, and an additional?
 

Carlsbad

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If something is being promoted for invalid reasons, it is snake oil. I am a technical colleague. It is not snake oil. Jerry
 
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Republicoftexas69

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Republicoftexas69

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I made an 8" power cord to go between the box and the amp. --Jerry
So Jerry you are now an adopter/adapter of the SDF? Prefer it over your earlier experiments with slugs?
 

Carlsbad

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Dec 11, 2022
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If you like slugs, they can't be beat. that is the ultimate low resistance connection. Eliminating the fuse clips altogether might be better but most won't do that. But you can see there are a lot of people that will never try slugs and the SDFB is very close. Better than any fuse.

BTW, this is disruptive technology. If makes other expensive equipment obsolete and replaces expensive investments others have made in audiophile fuses. So expect a lot of controversy.

Finally, I need to say that I have no financial interest in SDFB whatsoever. I was planning to market one once I retired and Mark beat me to it so hats off to him.

Jerry
 
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Republicoftexas69

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If you like slugs, they can't be beat. that is the ultimate low resistance connection. Eliminating the fuse clips altogether might be better but most won't do that. But you can see there are a lot of people that will never try slugs and the SDFB is very close. Better than any fuse.

BTW, this is disruptive technology. If makes other expensive equipment obsolete and replaces expensive investments others have made in audiophile fuses. So expect a lot of controversy.

Finally, I need to say that I have no financial interest in SDFB whatsoever. I was planning to market one once I retired and Mark beat me to it so hats off to him.

Jerry
Thank you for the insight Jerry.
 
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ssfas

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If something is being promoted for invalid reasons, it is snake oil. I am a technical colleague. It is not snake oil. Jerry
When I sent Mark the Littelfuse data that showed his promotional science was invalid, his technical colleagues agreed that I was correct. Specifically, fuses under rated load do not heat up, increase in resistance or cause voltage drop to any significant degree. So by your definition it is snake oil.

Dummy fuses have been around for years (Mark calls them slugs) and I’ve heard of people soldering a bit of wire across the fuse clips.

if you are a technical colleague, how would one of these devices match the overcurrent profile and I2t specification of a Littelfuse 2A cartridge fuse?
 

Carlsbad

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Dec 11, 2022
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Sorry ssfas, I'm going to be very clear here. Your understanding is superficial and flawed. My last comment. --Jerry
 
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ssfas

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Sorry ssfas, I'm going to be very clear here. Your understanding is superficial and flawed. My last comment. --Jerry
You've convinced me it is snake oil. The classic snake oil product is one sold on a fear that is invalid. Mark agreed that the fear being sold (increased resistance through heating) is invalid. You only have to be able to read the Littelfuse datasheet.

The only external replaceable fuse I can see in my audio boxes is a 2A fuse in an Innuos Pulsar. The power supply was designed by Dr Sean Jacobs. I've sent him an email.

In terms of disruptive technology, my amplifier seems to be disruptive of the fuse market as it doesn't have an external fuse.
 

Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
Sorry ssfas, I'm going to be very clear here. Your understanding is superficial and flawed. My last comment. --Jerry
Jerry, one nice feature here is the ability to ignore people of this type.
 

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