Studer A820 in for repair!

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, did you get your A820's from Fred? Thanks, Larry

i bought my first A-820 1/4" in pristine condition from a studio in Austin, Texas in 2007. it had very low usage but it was recommended to me to send it to Fred. so i did. he had it for 8 months and mostly cleaned the dust from it. in past posts i represented that he semi-refurbished it. Fred at one point corrected me that he did not go that far and never even calibrated it. anyway, he did whatever he did for 8 months to it (i paid him over $10k for his work, including a small portion for parts). it's been a solid performer and reliable for 10 years, until just recently when Ki Choi did some relatively minor repairs and updates.

my second A-820 came from a studio in LA in 2011, a 1/2" machine. it sounded great, but was not quite as pristine. i had an issue with the motors, mostly self inflicted, and it took Ki a couple years to sort it out. it's now an outstanding performer and has had nice new cosmetic upgrades so looks great too.

my final A-820 was purchased from Ki Choi this past spring, and has both 1/4" and 1/2" heads, guides and hubs. sounds and looks great.

recently all three machines were calibrated for playback (i'm learning how to do this myself). they have never sounded better and i'm feeling good about them.

 

[microstrip]

I took it to mean his local tech's was better. It is not completely clear however.

IMHO if such statement is not absolutely clear it needs either a clarification by the poster or being deleted by moderators. Too important for ambiguity.

 

[chasingthedragon]

Hi Everyone!

I am sorry not to be more clear, but the A820 that Petronel here in the UK updated, was far superior in sound quality than the machine I bought from Fred Thal. When I visited Petronel I was very impressed by the number of machines that he had in his garage, house and workshop. Several A80s, A820s, A812s, an A816, many A810s and a Nagra T!

He travels in Europe to several recording studios where he maintains their machines. As well as a vast knowledge on the ins and outs of most recorders he is actually very approachable. Perhaps you may wish to email him: petronel@audiophilesclinic.co.uk

Of course when listening to equipment we all have our own subjective opinions, All of my direct cut albums being created at Air Studios, for Chasing The Dragon, I have had the opportunity of listening to a variety of microphones, pre-amps and a variety of recording media. 24 /192 vs double DSD vs 16 / 44.1 and direct cut vinyl vs tape. ( When I joined the BBC where I worked as a sound engineer for 15 years in 1972, there was very little digital around! It's been great to see how the recording landscape has changed over the years. )

At hifi shows, I have fun in our room playing all of the varieties to the public to see if there is a consensus of what people like. Usually the audience observes that tape is right at the top, with more air and space around the instruments. All of the recordings are recorded separately from individual feeds from the Neve desk to try to create a level playing field. ( Oops! I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, he said putting on his asbestos suit! )

I believe someone asked about how we received our A820 from Fred. It was shipped over to the UK in a very well packed wooden crate. Again nothing against Fred's A820 but the "Petronelled" machine was in a different league sound quality wise, in direct comparison.

Thanks for reading!

K?nd regards

M?ke

 

[microstrip]

Hi Everyone!

I am sorry not to be more clear, but the A820 that Petronel here in the UK updated, was far superior in sound quality than the machine I bought from Fred Thal. When I visited Petronel I was very impressed by the number of machines that he had in his garage, house and workshop. Several A80s, A820s, A812s, an A816, many A810s and a Nagra T!

He travels in Europe to several recording studios where he maintains their machines. As well as a vast knowledge on the ins and outs of most recorders he is actually very approachable. Perhaps you may wish to email him: petronel@audiophilesclinic.co.uk

Of course when listening to equipment we all have our own subjective opinions, All of my direct cut albums being created at Air Studios, for Chasing The Dragon, I have had the opportunity of listening to a variety of microphones, pre-amps and a variety of recording media. 24 /192 vs double DSD vs 16 / 44.1 and direct cut vinyl vs tape. ( When I joined the BBC where I worked as a sound engineer for 15 years in 1972, there was very little digital around! It's been great to see how the recording landscape has changed over the years. )

At hifi shows, I have fun in our room playing all of the varieties to the public to see if there is a consensus of what people like. Usually the audience observes that tape is right at the top, with more air and space around the instruments. All of the recordings are recorded separately from individual feeds from the Neve desk to try to create a level playing field. ( Oops! I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, he said putting on his asbestos suit! )

I believe someone asked about how we received our A820 from Fred. It was shipped over to the UK in a very well packed wooden crate. Again nothing against Fred's A820 but the "Petronelled" machine was in a different league sound quality wise, in direct comparison.

Thanks for reading!

K?nd regards

M?ke

Thanks, Mike. One more reason to reach a good Brexit agreement - I am imagining a big line of trucks carrying Studer's in and out of the UK ...

 

[yjwu]

Hi Everyone!

I am sorry not to be more clear, but the A820 that Petronel here in the UK updated, was far superior in sound quality than the machine I bought from Fred Thal. When I visited Petronel I was very impressed by the number of machines that he had in his garage, house and workshop. Several A80s, A820s, A812s, an A816, many A810s and a Nagra T!

He travels in Europe to several recording studios where he maintains their machines. As well as a vast knowledge on the ins and outs of most recorders he is actually very approachable. Perhaps you may wish to email him: petronel@audiophilesclinic.co.uk

Of course when listening to equipment we all have our own subjective opinions, All of my direct cut albums being created at Air Studios, for Chasing The Dragon, I have had the opportunity of listening to a variety of microphones, pre-amps and a variety of recording media. 24 /192 vs double DSD vs 16 / 44.1 and direct cut vinyl vs tape. ( When I joined the BBC where I worked as a sound engineer for 15 years in 1972, there was very little digital around! It's been great to see how the recording landscape has changed over the years. )

At hifi shows, I have fun in our room playing all of the varieties to the public to see if there is a consensus of what people like. Usually the audience observes that tape is right at the top, with more air and space around the instruments. All of the recordings are recorded separately from individual feeds from the Neve desk to try to create a level playing field. ( Oops! I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, he said putting on his asbestos suit! )

I believe someone asked about how we received our A820 from Fred. It was shipped over to the UK in a very well packed wooden crate. Again nothing against Fred's A820 but the "Petronelled" machine was in a different league sound quality wise, in direct comparison.

Thanks for reading!

K?nd regards

M?ke

Hello Mike:

It is great to hear different opinions on well taken cared A820. Is it a good suggestion to update to latest firmware? Someone complains lack of damper design in compared to other STUDER's pro machines, which rendered A820 prone to oscillation.

http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=68781

My A820 was fine - no mechanical resonance. I thought the latest Master MPU software optimized the parameters so tension control was not over sensitive. Adding extra pairs of mechanical dampers just like a bicycle with training wheels.

I am curious what was the highlight of Fred's three day training course?

Yeun-Jung Wu

 

[Fred Thal]

. . . the A820 that Petronel here in the UK updated, was far superior in sound quality than the machine I bought from Fred Thal. . . M?ke

This probably deserves a response from me.

Chasing the Dragon (aka Valentine Films) purchased an A820 from ATAE in June, 2015. This was a negotiated deal, whereby Valentine Films received an A820 at discounted accommodation pricing, with ATAE accepting their modified A812 in trade.

Someone I won't name had converted Valentine Film's originally quarter-inch A812, to a half-inch two-channel, by fitting what I would call very crude mechanical parts. This type of conversion on old Studer machines is more common than one might imagine. ATAE wound up dismantling and then scrapping the Valentine A812 machine.

The important point here, is that the A820 machine ATAE supplied to Valentine Films was not an ATAE product, but was rather an original Studer A820 from our inventory that simply went through our service department before being shipped off to Valentine Films at the lowest accommodation pricing that I could manage. I was trying to do Valentine Films a favor. In reviewing our records this morning, I see that Valentine Films declined to purchase any new, factory-sealed MRL cal tapes from us, informing me that they had their own calibration tapes on hand. (We routinely always ship new cal tapes with any machine.)

The pic I include here is one we sent to Valentine Films, just prior to crating in California in June 2015.

An email we received from Valentine Films in July of 2015 suggested that they were delighted. Here is what Mike Valentine then wrote:

"I hope this e-mail finds you well. We have just finished working on Tim Burton’s new film and have finally opened the box containing our wonderful A820. Thank you so much for all your hard work. The machine is outstanding. It is so nice to find someone who cares so much about their work, in this day & age. I look forward to getting in touch soon, with some photos of when we use the machine. Have a good day. "

If someone later discovered any faults of any kind with this A820, we never heard about it.

 

[chasingthedragon]

Hi Everyone,

All the facts that Fred states are absolutely correct. However if you go back through my messages, you will see that I have never once complained about the quality of Freds service. As clearly stated, my subjective opinion of the sound quality of Petronels A820 was absolutely ahead of the A820 I received from Fred. Petronel in my opinion offeres absolutely superb value for money.

He changed every electrolytic, the bearings and the pinch roller etc. etc. Every board was photographed before, during and after the update and as the process went by he would email me all of the photographs. Components, especially electrolytics which are more that 30 years old fade with time. ( probably just like me ) If you add the cost of the original machine to the cost of Petronels updating which was just over 5000 GBP its a complete no brainier. Especially when you consider its a full record playback machine.

Once again nothing against Freds superb machine and service, but I know what I am taking to my desert island.

Thanks for reading everyone

Kind regards

Mike

 

[Fred Thal]

This too, clearly requires a response from me.

Sorry that it needs to be lengthy.

Mike Lavigne has been a thorn in my side for years now, because I feel he's been harming Studer A820 tape machines, mainly by his frequently talking about these machines, when in my opinion, he lacks any real knowledge of the subject.

I have previously told Mike this, in private conversation.

Why do I say that he lacks knowledge?

For example, read Mike years ago declaring that he can "handle" selecting the cables that he attaches to his machine's repro heads.

But then note that he also informed us that he doesn't know what head resonance is.

Or, read Mike informing us that he "doesn't do azimuth adjustments".

Or, read him often declaring that he has been into the very highest end of audiophile tape playback (for over a decade now) but then, this week he's saying that he's only now learning how to do a reproduce alignment.

To anyone who understands the science of analog tape recording and playback, none of this nonsense adds up.

Mike Lavigne showed zero interest in ever taking an A820 operator training class at ATAE. (Yes, I'm sorry that they are at least three days long.)

Yet inexplicably, Mike has a long and curious history of endorsing and promoting various people as being Studer experts, when (again, this is my opinion) they clearly are not.

For a recent example, read Mike's post about his expert shimming the mounting points of one of Mike's A820 spooling motors, using flat washers procured from a local hardware store, in an effort to "adjust" the A820's reel table height.

Clearly, this was someone who has no concept of what a precision guidance tape transport is, or how it was built. Any real Studer A820 (or A80) tape transport expert reading that account of such a wrongly conceived and performed "adjustment" would be appalled.

I privately told Mike this, and then much later (on the old Studer list) publicly called Mike out on his naming fake Studer experts, because I believed that his spreading such misinformation was harming surviving Studer machines.

Apparently, Mike Lavigne does not like to be called out. On anything.

Let me try to help make my point about harming these magnificent Studer machines, by using an analogy.

There was a very good reason why Rolex made their Oyster cases in a manner that required a factory tool to open them. If you appreciate fine Swiss watches for any of the right reasons, then you probably agree that it was a sad day when some people began supplying fake Rolex factory tools to unscrupulous strip mall jewelers.

If anyone happened to sit through the recent two hour long interview of Elon Musk with Joe Rogan, then they heard the consequences: some people today (including Mr. Rogan) now actually believe that a Rolex perpetual certified chronometer movement, might routinely require re-setting of the correct time. They think this is normal and acceptable.

This is truly a sad state of affairs.

So, do I need to add that a "pristine condition" A820 recorder, must obviously extend far beyond the cosmetic appearance of those ridiculous fake wood side panels and those silly leather hand rests?

Bottom line for any interested WBF readers? Audiophile analog tape playback will never be taken seriously, if we let it be orchestrated by fakes.

So, analog tape machine owners, if you're reading this, please don't be fooled into thinking everything is fine just because the tape is moving.

Rely instead on proper instrumentation to verify that things are truly in order.

Always first check the critical time-base performance of your tape transport! (We recommend using a 12.5 kHz flutter diagnostic signal for wide-band FFT flutter analysis. Not some old weighted-band flutter meter.)

. . . he had it for 8 months and mostly cleaned the dust from it.

I don't think you're being at all fair to me Mike, by so wrongly describing what work was performed.

I have the records detailing what work was done and exactly what parts were replaced on your A820 when it was at ATAE ten years ago.

And stating that the machine was not calibrated by me is simply not truthful.

So what gives, Mike? What's your real agenda here?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Fred,

i respect what you contribute to the tape lovers and Studer lovers here. i know sometimes we butt heads but my view of your expertise has never changed. and these years of you suggesting i learn more has had an effect, even if you are not the teacher right now. i am working on learning how to get more from my tapes.

as far as me referring people to unqualified people for their Studer repairs; i've only ever referred people to you or Ki Choi. if you have an issue with Ki......well......you have a right to your opinion. he is not in the business of repairing gear, he is an enthusiast hobbyist......with many beating down his door to help them. Ki has always been a reluctant repairer.

once, many years ago, i posted a link to a European website that was concerning Studer's. but made no qualitative comment. if that is what you consider a threat, i'm sorry. i don't know the names and never have communicated with any European Studer repair person.

i think my efforts over the years have contributed to the tape resurgence and interest in Studers. the activity was there to be taken advantage of by you or whoever was able to. on this subject i'm not the bad guy. over the years i've personally referred dozens of people to you. what happened then is on you.

as far as what happened back 10 years ago, it's what i recall. i have all our emails and invoices too. i suggest we just let that one lay as it is. as i wrote, that Studer has been a great performer and reliable for 10 years.

have a nice day!

 

[c1ferrari]

Well we already know Mike's machines are better than Fred's!

Uh-oh

 

[Tango]

[QUOTE="i suppose one contemplates how much shipping my -3- A-820's to Petronel in Kent, U.K. might cost?

Oh NO Mike!
Don't do it!
It will be cheaper to fly him to Northbend WA![/QUOTE]

Yeah. My first thought was to fly him to BKK also...hahaha.

Tang

 

[c1ferrari]

The question all DIY type Studer tape machine owners (there are a few in WBF) would love to read an answer - what type of bearings are you using in your machines? Are there any bearings comparable or better than the originals?

Micro,

I observed very closely, if not scrutinized, the first time Charlie Bolois replaced the bearings on my first A-820/2CH sourced from Oasis Mastering in Los Angeles. Charlie emphasized the anatomy of the "bearing system" using the relevant service diagrams illustrating proper placement and orientation of various components, e.g. springs, shims, washers. Unequivocally, there is salient information NOT presented in the Operating and Service Instructions that can only be gleaned from experience, in my estimation.

 

[c1ferrari]

IMHO the big issue is that most audiophiles will not valuate enough what Fred considers fundamental - extremely high and objectively verifiable mechanical performance and adhesion to very strict and rigid technical electrical standards.

It's probably not restricted to "audiophiles." Folks pursue analog tape for various reasons...some want the "glue" to make a mix sound cohesive, for example. Personally, I have no interest in using analog tape as an effect at this juncture.

 

[c1ferrari]

I took it to mean his local tech's was better. It is not completely clear however.

The composition is clear to me.

 

[microstrip]

Micro,

I observed very closely, if not scrutinized, the first time Charlie Bolois replaced the bearings on my first A-820/2CH sourced from Oasis Mastering in Los Angeles. Charlie emphasized the anatomy of the "bearing system" using the relevant service diagrams illustrating proper placement and orientation of various components, e.g. springs, shims, washers. Unequivocally, there is salient information NOT presented in the Operating and Service Instructions that can only be gleaned from experience, in my estimation.

Thanks, Sam.

Fred Thal and others have addressed these aspects in the Studer list for the A80, explaining the why's - there was plenty of valuable information there, including discussion on preloading the ball bearings. I have replaced the bearings in one of my Studers, keeping the correct sequence of the various components and I am happy with the spectral measurements. All I need for future work is a firm recommendation for bearings brand and type for the second A80. Unfortunately most of what I can see for sale at various sellers only confirms Fred words of caution. The ABEC grade is almost meaningless to this specific application - I have got ABEC5 NMB bearings that had better performance than ABEC7 from other brands.

Tape, as all sound reproduction matters, is an hobby for me - I do not consider myself an expert - but I like to do my best when I address technical issues although my funds for tape are limited.

 

[astrotoy]

Well it looks like I've made a big mess of this thread. I've been following the pro Studers for some time, ever since hearing about them from the Decca engineers who used them in the golden age. Fred has contributed a lot to the different Studer threads, explaining how he completely rebuilds the A80 and A820's and also his reproducer versions. What I have been trying to get is someone's opinion on their experience with one or more of Fred's rebuilds of an A820, perhaps in comparison with a non ATAE rebuilt A820.

I've asked the question a few times in different threads, hoping to get one of Fred's customers to comment. Mike (Chasing the Dragon) is the first one I have seen who has replied. However, it apparently wasn't the kind of machine I was asking about. Also true for Mike L.

I was hoping that WBF would be a good forum to ask the question and an A820 thread the proper place. I also belong to Tapeheads and Gearslutz which tend to draw more pros, but I haven't seen much of this type of discussion. Maybe Fred or someone else can point me in a better direction.

There are many high end audiophile components that are in the high five figure to low six figure price range. However, the ATAE A820 rebuilds appear to me to be in a different category. The others are competing with other components which serve the same function (say speakers or turntables) but are constructed on different principles and materials.

In the case of the ATAE A820, Studer is no longer manufacturing the item, but there are a large number of used Studer A820's that appear on the market in different states of repair. There are also a number of people who have or claim to have skills to put them in various states of running condition, at different price points, all much lower than the rebuilt ATAE A820. To a layperson without the funds to purchase an ATAE A820, the attraction is obvious to purchase some other A820, or purchase some other machine (pro or semi pro or consumer) in rebuilt, restored, unrestored or other status (even brand new with the Ballfinger) if they want to play and/or record tapes for their enjoyment.

Ideally, there would be a place where a person who was seriously interested in high quality tape reproduction could go to compare different machines. My experience with tape reproduction has been one of the most (if not the most) satisfying high fidelity experience I have had. So I am not asking these questions trivially.

Larry

 

[Mike Lavigne]

after Fred wrote his concerns about my comments regarding the work he did on my Studer A-820, i started thinking more about it, and eventually i recalled that right after i picked it up in 2008, exactly 10 years ago, i asked him to write a short description of what he found, and what he did. i was afraid i would either oversell what he did, or not relate it properly (like i just did).

i just searched my email's and found that response that he wrote which i've copied in it's entirety below. it's different than what i posted on this thread earlier, so first off, i was wrong and he was right. my apologies to Fred for being wrong and unfair to him and inferring something i should not have. obviously i've referred people to him over the years for good reason.

-----Original Message-----

From: Fred Thal <afthal@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:35 AM

To: Mike Lavigne <mplav@comcast.net>

Subject: A820-2CH serial 1129 service summary



> Btw; I would appreciate it if you could write a paragraph of two about

> the general condition of my A-820. I will not be selling it..i love

> it. but I just want to have an accurate description of it's condition

> and

performance.



Hello Mike,



Your A820-2CH machine, serial number 1129, was first sold by Studer Revox America in 1987.



What was most remarkable about this machine on its incoming inspection at ATAE, was the generally excellent cosmetic condition of all cover metal and trim, which is a reliable sign that the machine was treated with respect by its former owner. Cosmetically, ignoring some very minor nicks in the wood side panels, only the clear plastic transport control pushbutton caps showed any signs of wear or age. (These often yellow if exposed to sunlight over many years. They are also very susceptible to cosmetic damage from contact with certain cleaning fluids. We can renew them with original parts at ATAE to restore their original appearance. However this was not done on 1129, as the original caps were deemed to be perfectly acceptable.)



It was also found that this machine was almost completely original inside.

In other words, there were almost no tell-tale signs that the machine had been dissembled for any prior repair work. However, the machine interior did have a heavy amount of dust accumulation throughout, which we mostly removed while it was here at ATAE.



The originality of the machine's interior is regarded as valuable, because we often see other examples of these machines that have been serviced or repaired by unqualified persons. Too often, such service or repair attempts will leave the machine in a compromised condition that may equate to a loss of performance.



On 1129, however, even the pinch roller appeared original. (However, this component was exchanged at ATAE for the new, Studer supplied, latest

version.)



Excepting a broken lamp housing for the channel 2 VU meter (these plastic housings become brittle with age and oftentimes break when people attempt to open them to change burnt-out VU meter lamps) and obvious repairs to the switching stabilizer assembly, there were almost no other signs of prior repairs, updates or other modification work found on 1129.



(All four of 1129's VU meter lamps were replaced with new ones at ATAE.

However I deemed the broken lamp housing non-critical, and left it alone.)



The capstan motor (original type 601.81) was examined and found to not have excessive wear and still exhibited a satisfactory drive surface finish (another sign of a relatively low hours machine) and was therefore not reconditioned. The top sintered bearing was lubricated with the Studer factory supplied special oil.



The spooling motors were likewise found to be in fine condition. Only the mechanical brakes showed signs of wear, but this condition was also deemed acceptable and left alone.



The original type 104 headblock (serial 14353) was sent to JRF for head relapping. A full 70 (seventy) percent of head life is remaining.



ATAE next installed the hardware and firmware updates to run updated firmware (per SI 130-89 and 131-89). This hardware updating included conversion to the rolling-style tape tension sensor feelers. The MPU memory back-up battery was also replaced.



Numerous electrolytic capacitors were renewed throughout the machine, including on the basis boards and in the main PSU. After proceeding to the flutter testing stage, eight sealed roller bearings were renewed with genuine Studer factory specified replacements. At that point, ATAE's 15 in/s flutter testing (peak-weighted per IEC 386) revealed performance exceeding (results better than) the published specifications.



After the installation of the new firmware, 1129 exhibited an anomaly with the positioning of the left guide roller in fast wind modes. The left guide roller position was found to park in very slight contact with the tape

(backside) in fast-wind modes. While this was deemed by ATAE to not constitute any real problem, it was reported to the factory and ATAE is presently conducting further research into this condition.



On the day of delivery, an intermittent output of the monitor speaker was observed, but the cause could not be identified in the available time.



1129 was delivered back to its new owner on October 7, 2008.



Fred Thal

ATAE StuderAnalog

 

[ack]

Entertaining thread

 

[Fred Thal]

ATAE is sometimes asked why we ceased to offer repair and reconditioning services for Studer A820 tape recorders.

The answer is a bit complex (sorry), but perhaps suffice it to say that we prefer building our new reproducers and recorders, over trying to restore vintage ones for which far too many critical genuine original parts are no longer available.

That said, one of the very last A820s fully reconditioned by us was completed back in 2014.

The cost to our customer for that reconditioning job was thirty-five thousand dollars.

Note that no one so far contributing to this thread has ever owned (or probably even seen) an ATAE completely reconditioned A820 recorder-reproducer.

And I suspect most here are seriously questioning the $35,000 amount we charged for the work.

Well, let's brake it down. That was about eighteen thousand dollars for parts, and about seventeen thousand for labor, which also included sublet labor.

Seem too high?

Well, where would you go to have your A820 spooling motors properly reconditioned?

(Here's a hint: no one here in the USA can do this work well.)

Or, how do you correctly recondition a Studer sinter-bearing capstan motor today?

Or, what about something as "simple" as sourcing a proper replacement A820 pinch roller?

(Think you know someone who sells a properly engineered substitute one? How would you tell?)

For those who still might think that ATAE was (or is) charging too much, please note that we have many parts custom made in Germany to our specifications. (Care to discover what that costs today?)

So, even at thirty-five thousand dollars, we were just breaking even on our A820 reconditioning jobs.

I see that the new WBF platform doesn't accept large image files. So tomorrow, I'll temporarily post a few pics on the ATAE website, showing WBF readers three different views of our last A820 reconditioning job.

The pics were all taken in 2014. The first will show you our customer's A820 transport foundation, re-mounted in its tilting auxiliary frame, which was repaired (precision re-welded) by us. The view is of the transport sub-assembly being readied for its path component reassembly.

The next pic will show you the critical A820 700 and 701 basis boards, immediately following their re-capping here. (The original, removed electrolytics are also seen in that pic.)

The final pic shows you the unit's main power supply unit, the infamous A820 "PSU brick", also just after being re-capped and being readied for bench testing by us, before its re-installation back into the machine.

I hope someone enjoys seeing these "insider" views of the wonderful Studer A820.

 

[yjwu]

What is the real cause of anomaly with positioning of left guide roller in fast wind modes? Any input?

The modification was on tape lifter control right.