Agreed. Always good to check with the source, and they're such a pleasure to deal with. They're not going to try to sell you anything, and will just try to help you choose whatever might work best for your system and preferences.
Stepping up in Pass Labs Amp series - aka 600.8 vs 200.8
- Thread starter kmyl
- Start date
I have the XA160.5. They are very hot and require a lot of ventilation. I would suggest you move your amplifier out from that bottom shelf on your rack and let them breathe and cool down.
I also suggest moving the rack away from between the speakers and pulling the speakers out from the front wall. All these things will change the balance of the sound end you may find that you like it more.
Before changing amplifiers, I would try to optimize the set up of your system within the room. If you’re still not satisfied at that point then consider new gear.
Finally, have you experimented with different power cords? Have you ever tried to listen to the stock Pass labs power cords?
It’s the electronics...those speakers can sound quite lively with the right gear behind them...the room’s got little to do with it.
Thanks Peter and all for your responses. I see the recommendation on electronics and tuning (i.e. cabling). What would be a balanced approach to PC/Interconnect/Speaker cables with reference point Pass Labs as my pre/power amp and what i am missing in terms of sound?
I don’t know what you are missing in terms of sound because I haven’t heard your system. I would try to find cabling and power cords that sound natural and balanced. Nothing should be spotlight or draw attention to itself.
in my own system, the only thing that I found sounds better than my stock Pass labs power cords are the Chinese Ching Cheng power cords.
Many people don’t like them and it’s a very personal choice. I am simply suggesting that before you immediately switch amplifiers you may be able to improve the set up of your existing system without spending any money and enjoy better sound. Buying new gear is not always the right answer. It is fun though.
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kmyl I think if you are finding the sound a bit lifeless & not to your liking I would change your loudspeakers first to a design that delivers the tone and sound that you like best. If you get a speaker that is more sensitive and very easy to drive then dynamics are more effortless and you can select a Pass Labs XA series amplifier. The Pass Labs XA60.8 are incredible mono blocks and will power most high sensitivity speakers very well.
It seems that cabling is an issue on my system and I investigate options. It looks like my DIY cabling and has been developed based on previous experiences doesn’t match at all Pass Labs sound. I will come back with more outcome once I get to a point I have a more solid view of what works best on my system. Besides that the possibility of upgrading to monoblocks is still on the table.
kmyl, If you haven’t read Roy Gregory’s review of the the Maestro EVO, check it out. He experienced the EXACT same complaints as you describe. It wasn’t until after he pulled the speakers out into the room using the “rule of 1/3’s” before the speakers came alive. Pull those Maestros 6-7 feet off the front wall and see what happens. I know they are 250+ lb speakers but it will be well worth the effort. You simply have the speakers way too close to the wall. The Maestro needs room to breathe.
Agreed and as stated earlier I'd give your amp more room to breath as well. For the record I employ a pair of X260.8's driving Revel Studio 2's and couldn't be happier ........
Set the gear up properly in the room, baaa. Just buy something new.
Maybe he needs SET and corner horns!!!
Set the gear up properly in the room, baaa. Just buy something new.
Maybe he needs SET and corner horns!!!
He asked for the opinion of fellow members. I gave him mine as a fellow Pass amp owner. I thought it would be more useful to offer specific suggestions rather than just say set up the system properly. And no I am not suggesting he try different gear.
Perhaps you can offer additional advice.
Can you explain what “lifeless” means, and give examples of “another more dynamic amplifier brand”? Thank you.
In the US Supreme Court case Jacobellis v Ohio from 1964, Justice Potter Stewart, in attempting to describe the threshold test for obscenity (pornography), stated that he could "never succeed in intelligibly doing so". He continued nevertheless: "But I know it when I see it".
Likewise, I find it difficult to describe in words how a Pass power amplifier is "lifeless". But I know it when I hear it!
Still, perhaps I could describe how how two different power amplifiers drive my current TAD CR1 TX speakers (very difficult to drive). The top of the line Accuphase A-250 Class A monoblocks (100 Class A watts per channel) at my dealer produce a nice textured sound, but the sound is not very dynamic, there is no "juice", no "jump". The power amplifiers I own, the top of the line TAD M700 Class AB monoblocks (350 Class AB watts per channel) have that "juice" and "jump". On listening to the CR1s with the TAD amplifiers (this may be an unfair comparison, since, after all, they were designed to drive the CR1s as well as possible by the very same TAD), you can hear immediately that one is in a completely different (and better) world, the TAD amplifiers are the natural mate for the TAD speakers.
So, although I haven't heard the Pass amplifiers with my TAD speakers, I have heard them in many other contexts, and I (your mileage may vary, as they say) have never been impressed with their obvious lack of "juice" and "jump" with many different speakers. I remember, for example, that the Pass amplifiers were completely outclassed by the Goldmund amplifiers driving the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage speakers (which I owned for thirteen years!).
However, using the same make amplifier with the same make speakers is not always the best solution. For example, the Thrax Spartacus 300B mono power amplifiers do not drive the Thrax Lyra speakers very well, too little "juice" and "jump".
Trial and error to find the best match between amplifier and speakers is the only method which works.
By the way, in my opinion (again), matching the preamplifier and the power amplifier (usually by buying the same brand) is also not the best way to go about getting a synergistic system.
The matchings which are important are the internal matchings for three subsystems, the upstream, midstream, and downstream.
First, one should try to match the upstream (sources). I have only one, the Taiko SGM Extreme server/streamer, so that's easy.
Second, one should match the midstream. So I have the Nagra HD DAC X and the Nagra HD Preamplifier HV, both with tubes and separate super capacitor power supplies, which really helps with the "juice" and "jump".
Third, one should match the downstream. So I've matched my TAD CR1 TX speakers with the TAD M700 mono power amplifiers: a match made in heaven! Some friends tell me that I should match my Nagra preamp with the Nagra HD monos, but, in my opinion, that's completely missing the point. The most important match in any sound system, and the most difficult one to get right, is the match between power amplifier and speakers. Any change to my current TAD monos would destroy the wonderful synergy I've discovered between my amplifiers and speakers! So no go.
Ron
Singapore
Likewise, I find it difficult to describe in words how a Pass power amplifier is "lifeless". But I know it when I hear it!
Still, perhaps I could describe how how two different power amplifiers drive my current TAD CR1 TX speakers (very difficult to drive). The top of the line Accuphase A-250 Class A monoblocks (100 Class A watts per channel) at my dealer produce a nice textured sound, but the sound is not very dynamic, there is no "juice", no "jump". The power amplifiers I own, the top of the line TAD M700 Class AB monoblocks (350 Class AB watts per channel) have that "juice" and "jump". On listening to the CR1s with the TAD amplifiers (this may be an unfair comparison, since, after all, they were designed to drive the CR1s as well as possible by the very same TAD), you can hear immediately that one is in a completely different (and better) world, the TAD amplifiers are the natural mate for the TAD speakers.
So, although I haven't heard the Pass amplifiers with my TAD speakers, I have heard them in many other contexts, and I (your mileage may vary, as they say) have never been impressed with their obvious lack of "juice" and "jump" with many different speakers. I remember, for example, that the Pass amplifiers were completely outclassed by the Goldmund amplifiers driving the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage speakers (which I owned for thirteen years!).
However, using the same make amplifier with the same make speakers is not always the best solution. For example, the Thrax Spartacus 300B mono power amplifiers do not drive the Thrax Lyra speakers very well, too little "juice" and "jump".
Trial and error to find the best match between amplifier and speakers is the only method which works.
By the way, in my opinion (again), matching the preamplifier and the power amplifier (usually by buying the same brand) is also not the best way to go about getting a synergistic system.
The matchings which are important are the internal matchings for three subsystems, the upstream, midstream, and downstream.
First, one should try to match the upstream (sources). I have only one, the Taiko SGM Extreme server/streamer, so that's easy.
Second, one should match the midstream. So I have the Nagra HD DAC X and the Nagra HD Preamplifier HV, both with tubes and separate super capacitor power supplies, which really helps with the "juice" and "jump".
Third, one should match the downstream. So I've matched my TAD CR1 TX speakers with the TAD M700 mono power amplifiers: a match made in heaven! Some friends tell me that I should match my Nagra preamp with the Nagra HD monos, but, in my opinion, that's completely missing the point. The most important match in any sound system, and the most difficult one to get right, is the match between power amplifier and speakers. Any change to my current TAD monos would destroy the wonderful synergy I've discovered between my amplifiers and speakers! So no go.
Ron
Singapore
Thanks. I have had this issue as well. When I bought the speakers sound was just terrible. Like a broken device. After a lot of trial and error, I engaged an accredited acoustic engineer with appropriate equipment to set them up appropriately in the room. As I said room treatment and overall acoustics are tuned (and measured) to the best possible level I can get. Hence now I am focusing on the electronics and specifically on how speakers are getting driven.
Everyone needs SET and horns...whether they realize it or notSet the gear up properly in the room, baaa. Just buy something new.
Maybe he needs SET and corner horns!!!
.The sound problem you are experiencing has nothing to do with the amount of power. At the levels you listen you are using only a few watts max. It has to do with the design of the amps and how they interact with those speakers. You need to move away from Pass (except maybe FirstWatt). If you must stay SS, something like darTZeel is pretty lively.
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