Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[bonzo75]

Diesis - too much money for the performance on offer, but they are very nicely made. I heard them with an Ongaku at Munich but they were better with the other amp there.

Animas will work only with quite specific genres but when working well they are good. With the wrong amps and material they can sound dreadful. 211 based amps are generally quite dynamic and lively but can be a bit brash in the top end. Not sure that'd be a great match with Anima. Good with Aries Cerat at Munich 2011. Best I have ever heard them sound.

Universum will work with a broader material range than Anima I think. Good speakers these days, though I didn't like the first version at all. Have heard them with 211 amps and they were good.

For horns $35K Duo Mezzo XD is what I'd go for. IMHO they are better than all the above even though all the above are good. They have been in the game for a long time and it shows.

With the 211 that we heard it was under powere. The big amp was more like it's I wanted to listen to those 211 for the 211 tube shootout. And yes your Amperex 211 tubes still remain one of the best finds of the hobby. Possibly WE 242C can outdo them

 

[Uwiik]

@Rhapsody what do you think about my room size? It’s 4.85m wide and 8.5m long with 3m high ceiling. Will Ongaku drive the Roma properly in a room that size?

 

[bonzo75]

I think for the current small manufacturer horn market truly to proliferate and succeed, they need to come to America, specifically the US. The PAP Horn business model or something similar with access for east midwest and western markets - not a solo East Coast or Canadian representative - is what might do it. Rhapsody is trying, but one dealer cannot carry every line with potential. It's easy to find comparisons and reviews of box speakers, but 'horns' is a not a speaker but a technology with commonalites - as you say each horn speaker sounds different. The huge American marketplace must gain better awareness - berating boxes and forum chit-chat is not enough. Horn makers need to come to the US and compete.

No they don't. There are not enough discerning hobbyists there, like I mentioned with tannoy kingdom royale, one tannoy fan said this was made for the American market, so high priced and doesn't sound good. It is the hobbyist's responsibility to go searching, and we will state our opinions, which hold the typical cone speakers in very low regard. If forum chit chat makes Peter slowly shift to horns, we have hope for you, micro, Rudolph, Ian and Marty too. I can't see how any classical and jazz fan won't shift over if he hears a few good horns. It is inevitable. For rock fans they have to additionally make sure they listen to a dual woofer FLH like Altec

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think for the current small manufacturer horn market truly to proliferate and succeed, they need to come to America, specifically the US. The PAP Horn business model or something similar with access for east midwest and western markets - not a solo East Coast or Canadian representative - is what might do it. Rhapsody is trying, but one dealer cannot carry every line with potential. It's easy to find comparisons and reviews of box speakers, but 'horns' is a not a speaker but a technology with commonalites - as you say each horn speaker sounds different. The huge American marketplace must gain better awareness - berating boxes and forum chit-chat is not enough. Horn makers need to come to the US and compete.

I would agree the US market is the major one with room for growth with horns but even still I wonder if horns will ever proliferate anywhere Tim. Many have limitations that logically keep the breed a niche or boutique. The smaller Pap and Spatial and Diesis probably fit a vision of an accessible contemporary living style more easily. But big beasties like GIP laboratories, Cessaro, Tune Anima blumenhoffer, universum, OMA, the larger Avantgardes etc have a footprint that is a very challenging and very particular aesthetic with a big physical commitment to house.

So is it about broad dealership availability or is it also about essential preferences and even cultural differences. If the dealerships aren’t there is it because market interest beyond the diy niche hasn’t really been there since the former early heydays of horns in the US and maybe it isn’t a presence set to return.

Maybe the fact that so many great horn speakers manufacturers already exist and make fantastic speakers means that they are already a success even with restricted sales at any rate. Maybe success isn’t about market dominance and continuous growth models but about a specific design passion and a commitment to a kind of sound.

Small room friendly horns aren’t going to ever overthrow small room friendly box speakers and the breed come into their own sonically at about the time they also become quite physically challenging.

It would be great to see more horns in the mainstream for the great musical qualities that they can offer but unsure it’s going to ever penetrate the limiting constraints of their larger reality.

 

[Rhapsody]

@Rhapsody what do you think about my room size? It’s 4.85m wide and 8.5m long with 3m high ceiling. Will Ongaku drive the Roma properly in a room that size?

The Ongaku/Roma would sound "nice", but there will more of a jump factor with more power. My favorite amp on the Roma and Roma Triode is the Pilium 250 SS stereo amp. I like the Ongaku on the Diesis I just prefer the overall Pilium presentation, but that is just a personal observation, nothing to do with what others would perceive.

When I drove the Roma with a 4 Watt 2A3 amp in my room that is almost the same size as your room, Herb Reichert, thought it was the best sound between the Ongaku and the 2A3 amp and also the Diesis integrated. He called it LSD magic particles floating in the room. BUT when you put the Ongaku on then there is more power to the presentation without being too forceful.

So much to do with personal preference and hard to advise what anyone would like vs. being able for them to listen and decide for themselves.

 

[Bobvin]

YouTube binge...LOL, it’s an obsession, not only binge, can’t even remember how many times I fell asleep while watching sound samples of YouTube, I think I got pretty good at it already.

You hit the nail on my head! I completely forgot about the hORNS Universum just because of the shape! I got put off by the aesthetics early although many actually loves the shape of Universum. However, lately I just can’t help myself but thinking about tombstones when looking at pictures of the Anima, especially when it’s purple against red/purple background like how it’s showed on many YT Vids, somehow although totally unrelated, damn thing reminded me of the old school Chinese vampire horror movie I watched a lot when I was a little kid and it dang creeping me out. If I do get the Anima, it’s gotta be in black with veneer horns, definitely not a hint of purple or red, that would really creep me out, even then I am not sure if I can completely rid of my Chinese vampire self induced paranoia.

Thanks so much for the reminder for Universum, it is definitely back on my top list and will report back to you after another YouTube binge comparing Diesis-Anima-Universum!! Cheers!!

You know, thats some funny shit Uwiik. Chinese vampire movies LOL. I really love your honesty in knowing your biases.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Vocal especially female Vocal is absolutely the highest priority above anything else . . . I found that instruments and jump factor are much better on good horns compared to Alsyvox but it is the female vocal where the Alsyvox truly shine . . .

+1 (as to the magic of planars in general reproducing vocals).

(I apologize in advance for offering an answer to a question which was not solicited, but the idea of shopping for state-of-the-art speakers via YouTube videos almost makes my head explode.)

 

[marslo]

@Uwiik
I have heard Uni III many times and their mids and highs are excellent but their bass is a weak part of the construction , especially compared to Mezzo XD. So I agree with @User211 .

Thanks to DSP you can adjust the lower midrange of Mezzo XD to your amps, taste and room acoustics.

I also agree with your opinion about Living Voice Vox Olimpian - the best setup with Kondo gear I have ever heard but the price is prohibitive.

And here is the sample of woman voice reproduced with my former Duo Mezzo XD using native DSD recording,video made with iphone, just to give you the idea. My preferences are transparency ,resolution and palpable sound, with Kondo you would get probably better saturation and warmer tone.

Of course I do not recommend to make the decision based on any YT video, the audition at home is mandatory.

 

[Gregm]

I am very confused on speaker selection right now. (...)

I have shortlisted my speakers considerations based on realistic price, local availability and short descriptions below;
- Canterbury SE: I am running this right now as loaner. I love it, it can engage me emotionally if only this speaker is not underpowered by my Kondo resulting in non existent “low/thump” bass I would’ve snatch this cheap 15 years old speakers already.

Excuse me for stating the obvious and I apologize if I'm reiterating what has already been said, but if you like the Caterbury,

why not just keep these and supplant them with a "swarm" of subwoofers, Audiokinesis style (I'd simply purchase the set from Duke). Your room is big enough to accommodate them and there are nooks & cranies to hide them in

It is by far the simplest (and cheapest) solution and offeres you a largely predictable result: Canterbury with added low frequency extension...

 

[Uwiik]

+1 (as to the magic of planars in general reproducing vocals).

(I apologize in advance for offering an answer to a question which was not solicited, but the idea of shopping for state-of-the-art speakers via YouTube videos almost makes my head explode.)

LOL! If only I can audition, I live in Indonesia, very limited what I can audition here and the Rona makes it extremely inconvenient for overseas travel just to audition/buy some speakers. Having said that, I think YouTube can give a rough indication (big emphasis on the “rough”), it’s definitely better than nothing and so far my guesstimate from YouTube has been relatively accurate... If you read the entire thread you would understand that most probably I will not buy anything over $20.000 before the Rona ends. I will probably end up with the loaner Canterbury or WVL Son for my emergency speakers that later can be transferred to my other residence when it’s time to buy the “endgame” horns. I need to narrow down my choices before I can actually fly somewhere to audition maybe 2-3 max pairs of horns that will definitely be driven adequately by my puny 27 watt Ongaku, I cannot fly to a few different countries to audition 10 different horns, I wish I can but I am not that blessed yet I am patient...

 

[Uwiik]

Excuse me for stating the obvious and I apologize if I'm reiterating what has already been said, but if you like the Caterbury,

why not just keep these and supplant them with a "swarm" of subwoofers, Audiokinesis style (I'd simply purchase the set from Duke). Your room is big enough to accommodate them and there are nooks & cranies to hide them in

It is by far the simplest (and cheapest) solution and offeres you a largely predictable result: Canterbury with added low frequency extension...

I actually considering this for my temporary bridging speakers. Most probably I won’t buy any of the expensive horns without prior audition with 211 SET and the travel restrictions gotta eases down before I can audition any that we talked extensively about.

 

[Uwiik]

H

@Uwiik
I have heard Uni III many times and their mids and highs are excellent but their bass is a weak part of the construction , especially compared to Mezzo XD. So I agree with @User211 .

Thanks to DSP you can adjust the lower midrange of Mezzo XD to your amps, taste and room acoustics.

I also agree with your opinion about Living Voice Vox Olimpian - the best setup with Kondo gear I have ever heard but the price is prohibitive.

And here is the sample of woman voice reproduced with my former Duo Mezzo XD using native DSD recording,video made with iphone, just to give you the idea. My preferences are transparency ,resolutin and palpable sound, with Kondo you would get probably better saturation and warmer tone.

Of course I do not recommend to make the decision based on any YT video, the audition at home is mandatory.

Hey, thanks for the video @marslo!! Not bad at all on the vocal but far off from Diesis, Anima, Uni on the instruments (again YouTube guesstimate). This is actually the first AA Duo Mezzo XD I hear on YouTube with excellent vocal. I got a slight hint that vocal could be very good on Duo Mezzo XD from other video but the harsh, too forward and messy instruments put me off. Your Video is different, perhaps I should give it another look, easy enough to audition Uno XD at local AD and there is somebody local selling 2 years old Duo Mezzo XD in unopened sealed box for a very attractive price and if I am not mistaken @Rhapsody also have a used in mint condition up for sale.... wink..wink...

a quick question, do you ever feel the Duo Mezzo XD to be too forward, bright or fatiguing? From other YouTube vids, I have a hint that it can be too forward/aggressive, not the case at all on your video, just the right amount of forward ness there making everything alive.

 

[christoph]

I think the Universum looks fantastic and much much better than the Anima

I absolutely agree with you

 

[marslo]

H

Hey, thanks for the video @marslo!! Not bad at all on the vocal but far off from Diesis, Anima, Uni on the instruments (again YouTube guesstimate). This is actually the first AA Duo Mezzo XD I hear on YouTube with excellent vocal. I got a slight hint that vocal could be good on Duo Mezzo XD from other video but the instruments put me off. Your Video is different, perhaps I should give it another look, easy enough to audition Uno XD at local AD and there is somebody local selling 2 years old Duo Mezzo XD in unopened sealed box for a very attractive price and if I am not mistaken @Rhapsody also have a used in mint condition up for sale.... wink..wink...

As @the sound of Tao pointed out, everything is a matter of time and fine tuning, audio is a long journey.
Different amps, different cables and sources can influence the final result. Plus the DSP setup.
I am already 12 years with AA and taking into consideration their price/ quality/ resale value you won’t be wrong buying Duo Mezzo XD.
Of course you may like more Unis, Animas or Diesis, it is very personal but I am sure your might also achieve perfect synergy between Kondo and Duo Mezzo XD after a careful tuning and selection of components.
Yes , the bad selection of components may result in agressive, fatiguing sound, but this applies to almost every horn. But in my big living room - around 100 sqm - it was never forward sounding.

 

[christoph]

LOL! If only I can audition, I live in Indonesia, very limited what I can audition here and the Rona makes it extremely inconvenient for overseas travel just to audition/buy some speakers. Having said that, I think YouTube can give a rough indication (big emphasis on the “rough”), it’s definitely better than nothing and so far my guesstimate from YouTube has been relatively accurate... If you read the entire thread you would understand that most probably I will not buy anything over $20.000 before the Rona ends. I will probably end up with the loaner Canterbury or WVL Son for my emergency speakers that later can be transferred to my other residence when it’s time to buy the “endgame” horns. I need to narrow down my choices before I can actually fly somewhere to audition maybe 2-3 max pairs of horns that will definitely be driven adequately by my puny 27 watt Ongaku, I cannot fly to a few different countries to audition 10 different horns, I wish I can but I am not that blessed yet I am patient...

I like your strategy so far

 

[Uwiik]

As @the sound of Tao pointed out, everything is a matter of time and fine tuning, audio is a long journey.
Different amps, different cables and sources can influence the final result. Plus the DSP setup.
I am already 12 years with AA and taking into consideration their price/ quality/ resale value you won’t be wrong buying Duo Mezzo XD.
Of course you may like more Unis, Animas or Diesis, it is very personal but I am sure your might also achieve perfect synergy between Kondo and Duo Mezzo XD after a careful tuning and selection of components.
Yes , the bad selection of components may result in agressive, fatiguing sound, but this apply to almost every horn. But in my big living room - around 100 sqm - it was never forward sounding.

Do you think Duo Mezzo XD is the right size for my small-ish room? It’s 4.85 m X 8.5 m /41 sqm

 

[marslo]

Do you think Duo Mezzo XD is the right size for my small-ish room? It’s 4.85 m X 8.5 m /41 sqm

Imho it is a perfect size for Duo Mezzo XD.

 

[Zero000]

@Uwiik
I have heard Uni III many times and their mids and highs are excellent but their bass is a weak part of the construction , especially compared to Mezzo XD. So I agree with @User211 .

Totally. True articulation and definition just isn't present in the bass. The driver fires right into the ground and therefore can't couple directly with your ear drums. For that reason it'll never be top notch IMHO.

 

[Zero000]

very helpful analysis! Much appreciated! I was just done listening to as many Universum video I could find, I think Anima have a more composed midrange and I still can’t get past the look of Universum, although many loves it but it’s just not my cup of tea. Having said that, now I am confused because I can’t tell which one is better between Anima Vs Universum both sounded a bit nasal and “horny” on YouTube and I am sure both cannot sound that bad on vocals in real life. Your analysis in the 211 vs. Anima is very appreciated, I will take that into consideration and your opinion is fully warranted. As I said above, I think Anima have more shouty tendency than Diesis and that might be a problem with my 211 and all silver Kondo’s architecture, in my case Diesis seems to be the most logical choice as Diesis often touted with Kondo amp, must be certain synergy happening between Diesis and Kondo. It’s funny though that I never heard a Duo Mezzo XD YouTube video that I liked, but off course it’s YouTube SQ, maybe I should revisit AA Duo Mezzo XD and give it a long hard listen? I can audition the Uno XD at local dealership with VTL gear or bring my own.

Personally I would rather own the Diesis over the Anima based on my limited hearing of the Diesis at Munich 2019.

Why? Because I have heard Anima a few times and it has varied so much. From great to dreadful. The absolute worst was with Modwright amps. I think Anima demands a really high quality tube amp setup with the right character to shine.

Diesis with Ongaku is very good. I like OB speakers as a rule and the horn unit blends well. The other amp was a Diesis Evento, so it's not surprising it worked well and I think better but they obviously have the advantage of knowing what the intended target is i.e. their speakers.

If it were me, though, I'd sell the Ongaku and buy Alsyvox Botticelli with an appropriate amp. I know the Ongaku is a lovely piece but the best sounds at Munich came from the Alsyvox room.

Actually TBH I'd get Graz of Apogee to build me something extreme but hey, most won't take the risk.

 

[flez007]

Have you considered Zingali Acoustics?