Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[howiebrou]

That’s what I was trying to say upthread. Sorry, English is not my first language If I go the NOS DAC route with ANUK/Kondo downstairs then my Taiko will only serve one system upstairs.

It would seem a huge waste to have your Taiko only serve one system if it is possible to serve two imo.

 

[marmota]

With that amp, I wouldn't use an open baffle speaker, like the Diesis Roma. No matter what the intentions are, OB are the most unsensitive type of speaker you can buy (unless it doesn't have bass extension). Can't fight physics.

Look for a speaker with an impedance higher than 8 ohms, and as flat as possible (and a true +90db sensitivity).
Something like this, on paper, would be as close to perfect as possible:
Casta Acoustics Model C:

6moons audio reviews: Casta Acoustics Model C

Look at the impedance plot:

98db 1 watt with corner placement.

I haven't heard one, but on paper looks like a match made in heaven.
Look also at Haigner speakers, flat, high impedance and very high sensitivity.

It's very, very difficult to find an optimal speaker for a tube amp (8 ohms flat or minimum impedance), good luck with your search!

 

[Uwiik]

It would seem a huge waste to have your Taiko only serve one system if it is possible to serve two imo.

Exactly! That’s why I am undecided still. I was originally dead set in keeping downstairs system as simple and as streamlined with Kondo/ANUK concept as possible (redbook cd only, etc) but using Taiko for one system seems like a huge waste, especially when my upstairs and downstairs system are on the exact same side of the house, all I have to do is drill a hole on the concrete floor to run Ethernet cable, even a pair of RCA if necessary so I can just use long RCA from the DAC upstairs and connect it directly to the G70 RCA input. No need to buy one more Roon ready DAC.

 

[Rhapsody]

I can’t decide anything right now, I want my horn purchase to be sort of “endgame” purchase if such thing exist. Like I said I am prepared to just get a sub 20k bridging speakers to keep me satisfied while waiting for the opportunity to Audition my “endgame” horns. I can’t say that I like Tune Audio Anima so much, I was just saying that based on my very limited “YouTube special” audition, it seems that Tune Audio Anima and the Diesis Aura-Caput Mundi-Roma are what caught my attention the most. As an ex salesperson, I understand that higher price always comes with reasons and I truly would like to know why I should pick Diesis Roma over the more affordable Tune Audio Anima. From what I can gather from YouTube, it seems like the Tune Audio Anima is more prone to being shouty than Diesis (both Caput and Roma), not saying Anima is shouty, it’s just that Diesis seems to be calmer on the shouting thing. If somebody can tell me that the vocal on Diesis is much better than Anima then it will be a much easier decision for me.

Hi Uwiik,

My experience is that we all hear a bit differently. We all have different sonic interpretations of what we hear and what we prefer. Going by what others say about something is not what I use for myself to judge a speaker other than general guidelines that then lead me to go and hear the speaker for myself.

YT videos again, can give a hint, and put something on the radar, that would then make me want to go and hear a particular speaker.

With never having heard the Anima I would never comment on it. It's probably a wonderful speaker. It may or may not be to my liking. I would have to investigate to decide whether to "take a chance" and buy without hearing it.

You will get 10 different opinions of a horn speaker shouting. Some listeners hear horns shout no matter if they shout or not. Others don't hear horns shouting, even if they do. (A lot has to do with what is driving the horns)

As I said you can tailor any of the Diesis with the crossover resistors to your liking. I never have felt that any Diesis speaker that I've heard ever "shouted", but that's me. Someone else may argue that they shout, especially if they have a predisposition that horns shout in general, which many listeners do.

I wish I could be of assistance to you, but I really can't provide any more information other than what I already have. Maybe someone else here will be able to give you advice that will assist you in making your decision(s).

Be well!

 

[Rhapsody]

With that amp, I wouldn't use an open baffle speaker, like the Diesis Roma. No matter what the intentions are, OB are the most unsensitive type of speaker you can buy (unless it doesn't have bass extension). Can't fight physics.

Look for a speaker with an impedance higher than 8 ohms, and as flat as possible (and a true +90db sensitivity).
Something like this, on paper, would be as close to perfect as possible:
Casta Acoustics Model C:

6moons audio reviews: Casta Acoustics Model C

Look at the impedance plot:

98db 1 watt with corner placement.

I haven't heard one, but on paper looks like a match made in heaven.
Look also at Haigner speakers, flat, high impedance and very high sensitivity.

It's very, very difficult to find an optimal speaker for a tube amp (8 ohms flat or minimum impedance), good luck with your search!

Have you heard the Diesis Roma? Have you hear the Diesis Roma with an Ongaku? Just curious.....

It might not be something that you would buy or enjoy but I remember having 20+ visitors listen and enjoy the Ongaku and the Roma in this crazy set up, very much. I think I sold 3 or 3 Ongaku/Diesis set ups and the customers all love them.

Btw, I always offer two turn on two Rel 212SE subs with the Diesis Roma or RT as I like to run them with the Diesis. I can't ever remember anyone asking me to turn on the subs after I started to play something on the Roma or RT.

 

[Uwiik]

Hi Uwiik,

My experience is that we all hear a bit differently. We all have different sonic interpretations of what we hear and what we prefer. Going by what others say about something is not what I use for myself to judge a speaker other than general guidelines that then lead me to go and hear the speaker for myself.

YT videos again, can give a hint, and put something on the radar, that would then make me want to go and hear a particular speaker.

With never having heard the Anima I would never comment on it. It's probably a wonderful speaker. It may or may not be to my liking. I would have to investigate to decide whether to "take a chance" and buy without hearing it.

You will get 10 different opinions of a horn speaker shouting. Some listeners hear horns shout no matter if they shout or not. Others don't hear horns shouting, even if they do. (A lot has to do with what is driving the horns)

As I said you can tailor any of the Diesis with the crossover resistors to your liking. I never have felt that any Diesis speaker that I've heard ever "shouted", but that's me. Someone else may argue that they shout, especially if they have a predisposition that horns shout in general, which many listeners do.

I wish I could be of assistance to you, but I really can't provide any more information other than what I already have. Maybe someone else here will be able to give you advice that will assist you in making your decision(s).

Be well!

I hear you loud and clear! Thanks for the explanation and makes perfect sense!

 

[marmota]

Have you heard the Diesis Roma? Have you hear the Diesis Roma with an Ongaku? Just curious.....

It might not be something that you would buy or enjoy but I remember having 20+ visitors listen and enjoy the Ongaku and the Roma in this crazy set up, very much. I think I sold 3 or 3 Ongaku/Diesis set ups and the customers all love them.

Btw, I always offer two turn on two Rel 212SE subs with the Diesis Roma or RT as I like to run them with the Diesis. I can't ever remember anyone asking me to turn on the subs after I started to play something on the Roma or RT.

I bet that, if I didn't say "Diesis Roma" and said just "OB speaker" you wouldn't have replied. Very predictable behavior. It is what it is, OB speakers require higher qts driver, and as such, lower sensitivity to compensate for the lack of baffle.

I don't doubt that people are pleased wth the OB+Kondo setup...but what's their background....B&W+Mcintosh (at best)? That doesn't count as High End. I'm talking about "optimal", not about "good for someone's taste and needs a subwoofer because amp underdrives it".

 

[Rhapsody]

I bet that, if I didn't say "Diesis Roma" and say just "OB speaker" you wouldn't have replied. Very predictable behavior. It is what it is, OB speakers require higher qts driver, and as such, lower sensitivity to compensate for the lack of baffle.

I don't doubt that people are pleased wth the OB+Kondo setup...but what's their background....B&W+Mcintosh (at best)? that doesn't count as high end. I'm talking about "optimal", not about "good for someone's taste and needs a subwoofer because amp underdrives it".

You did not say open OB, you said Roma.

The background of the owners of the Ongaku - Romas/Roma Triode systems that I mentioned had these systems, although each had other similar systems over the last 30 years - Avantgarde Trios with 4 BH's with Lamm Ml2s, Apogees Divas with external Crossovers and driven by four powerful tube amplifiers and another one a pair of Sound Lab U1s and if remember correctly drive with a Sanders amp(s).

I don't knock brands like B/W and McIntosh. A lot of people own them and if they enjoy listening to music with them, then I am happy for them.

Btw, you didn't answer my question, have you heard a Roma or RT/Ongkau system set up in a good home environment? Or do you just know these things without having heard such a system?

Be well.

 

[marmota]

You did not say open OB, you said Roma.

The background of the owners of the Ongaku - Romas/Roma Triode systems that I mentioned had these systems, although each had other similar systems over the last 30 years - Avantgarde Trios with 4 BH's with Lamm Ml2s, Apogees Divas with external Crossovers and driven by four powerful tube amplifiers and another one a pair of Sound Lab U1s and if remember correctly drive with a Sanders amp(s).

I don't knock brands like B/W and McIntosh. A lot of people own them and if they enjoy listening to music with them, then I am happy for them.

Btw, you didn't answer my question, have you heard a Roma or RT/Ongkau system set up in a good home environment? Or do you just know these things without having heard such a system?

Be well.

No, I did not heard the Diesis speakers, and I don't want to. Construction is quite senseless. Two big woofers can't blend well with that tiny mid horn on top ("Roma Triode"). Needs to loose one woofer and adopt a decent sized cone midrange (8 or 6.5 inch depending on how big the woofer is, 15' or 12' respectively) to be somewhat coherent. If it is, then blame it on the amp/source homegenizing sound and covering the speaker's flaws. "Cheap synergy".

 

[Rhapsody]

No, I did not heard the Diesis speakers, and I don't want to. Construction is quite senseless. Two big woofers can't blend well with that tiny mid horn on top ("Roma Triode"). Needs to loose one woofer and adopt a decent sized cone midrange (8 or 6.5 inch depending on how big the woofer is, 15' or 12' respectively) to be somewhat coherent. If it is, then blame it on the amp/source homegenizing sound and covering the speaker's flaws. "Cheap synergy".

Thank you for your reply and analysis, duly noted.

Be well. Happy Easter!

 

[Uwiik]

Happy Easter to those who celebrate. I do

 

[Uwiik]

For the all tube system downstairs, I do not really care about SQ, I have upstairs system for that. I just want ability to fill the room with music, sweet emotional sound that will raise my goosebumps and make my cry. Like I said before, I am actually happy in that regards with the Canterbury SE except for the non existent low bass (approx below 80) and the fact that I really want to try horns.

 

[jep123]

For the all tube system downstairs, I do not really care about SQ, I have upstairs system for that. I just want ability to fill the room with music, sweet emotional sound that will raise my goosebumps and make my cry. Like I said before, I am actually happy in that regards with the Canterbury SE except for the non existent low bass (approx below 80) and the fact that I really want to try horns.

I am a very happy owner of the Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers. I am using them with a Triode Lab integrated amp with 4 watts with among other superb tubes the Psvane Acme 2A3.

I have used Kaiser, Kharma, Verity etc speakers in my dedicated listening room. My current system lets me connect with the music on a hole different level. Extremely open, organic and natural sounding. The cubes have no crossover and the music comes from one driver, for me this just sounds right. With «only» 92 dB sens. for the Cubes I was a little bit in doubt with only 4 watts of power, it works superbly. They are really an easy load.

If you are searching for goosebumbs I highly recommend that you have a listen to the Cubes. Good luck.

JP

 

[christoph]

I can’t decide anything right now, I want my horn purchase to be sort of “endgame” purchase if such thing exist. Like I said I am prepared to just get a sub 20k bridging speakers to keep me satisfied while waiting for the opportunity to Audition my “endgame” horns. I can’t say that I like Tune Audio Anima so much, I was just saying that based on my very limited “YouTube special” audition, it seems that Tune Audio Anima and the Diesis Aura-Caput Mundi-Roma are what caught my attention the most. As an ex salesperson, I understand that higher price always comes with reasons and I truly would like to know why I should pick Diesis Roma over the more affordable Tune Audio Anima. From what I can gather from YouTube, it seems like the Tune Audio Anima is more prone to being shouty than Diesis (both Caput and Roma), not saying Anima is shouty, it’s just that Diesis seems to be calmer on the shouting thing. If somebody can tell me that the vocal on Diesis is much better than Anima then it will be a much easier decision for me.

Did you also listen to hORNS Universum speakers on your youtube binge?

I would be interested in your assessment of the Universums in comparison with the Tune Audio Anima...

 

[bonzo75]

I can’t decide anything right now, I want my horn purchase to be sort of “endgame” purchase if such thing exist. Like I said I am prepared to just get a sub 20k bridging speakers to keep me satisfied while waiting for the opportunity to Audition my “endgame” horns. I can’t say that I like Tune Audio Anima so much, I was just saying that based on my very limited “YouTube special” audition, it seems that Tune Audio Anima and the Diesis Aura-Caput Mundi-Roma are what caught my attention the most. As an ex salesperson, I understand that higher price always comes with reasons and I truly would like to know why I should pick Diesis Roma over the more affordable Tune Audio Anima. From what I can gather from YouTube, it seems like the Tune Audio Anima is more prone to being shouty than Diesis (both Caput and Roma), not saying Anima is shouty, it’s just that Diesis seems to be calmer on the shouting thing. If somebody can tell me that the vocal on Diesis is much better than Anima then it will be a much easier decision for me.

Anima can be shouty if not properly set up. I like it better than Diesis though yes Diesis is less shouty, it is much easier to fit in and just play. However if vocals and mids are your focus I will take horns universum which is like an elecrostat. I like Anima and universum but both are very unlike each other

 

[tima]

Anima can be shouty if not properly set up. I like it better than Diesis though yes Diesis is less shouty, it is much easier to fit in and just play. However if vocals and mids are your focus I will take horns universum which is like an elecrostat. I like Anima and universum but both are very unlike each other

Nice coverage of horns universum and tune anima by Brad (@morricab ).

A Munich 2016 Show Report Part 1: My Top 5 Systems at the Munich High-End Show, Plus My “Affordable” Picks - Positive Feedback

As usual for the Munich show, the numbers of rooms that I can call truly excellent were quite limited. Now, one can debate as to whether this was due to "show conditions"; poor rooms with thin walls, poor electrical power (I have witnessed this first hand many years ago), poor choice in matching...

positive-feedback.com

edit: Missed this on first read because I was focusing on horn speakers: Brad also noted the Wilson Alexia paired with Nagra electronics was his best sounding dynamic speaker at the Munich show.

 

[Uwiik]

I am a very happy owner of the Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers. I am using them with a Triode Lab integrated amp with 4 watts with among other superb tubes the Psvane Acme 2A3.

I have used Kaiser, Kharma, Verity etc speakers in my dedicated listening room. My current system lets me connect with the music on a hole different level. Extremely open, organic and natural sounding. The cubes have no crossover and the music comes from one driver, for me this just sounds right. With «only» 92 dB sens. for the Cubes I was a little bit in doubt with only 4 watts of power, it works superbly. They are really an easy load.

If you are searching for goosebumbs I highly recommend that you have a listen to the Cubes. Good luck.

JP

I am a very happy owner of the Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers. I am using them with a Triode Lab integrated amp with 4 watts with among other superb tubes the Psvane Acme 2A3.

I have used Kaiser, Kharma, Verity etc speakers in my dedicated listening room. My current system lets me connect with the music on a hole different level. Extremely open, organic and natural sounding. The cubes have no crossover and the music comes from one driver, for me this just sounds right. With «only» 92 dB sens. for the Cubes I was a little bit in doubt with only 4 watts of power, it works superbly. They are really an easy load.

If you are searching for goosebumbs I highly recommend that you have a listen to the Cubes. Good luck.

JP

Cube Audio Nenuphar Basis was actually on my short list. I don’t consider it anymore because although I believe it is a very good speaker, I am afraid it will not play in the same league as the rest of the gears. It is more of a price level matching concern and I am guilty as charged by having the prejudice, like I said upthread, I am an ex salesman and I strongly believe in price. I would love to be proven wrong in the case of Cube Nenuphar because I can save a lot going that way, be it for temporary bridging speaker or the ultimate “endgame” speaker.

 

[Uwiik]

Did you also listen to hORNS Universum speakers on your youtube binge?

I would be interested in your assessment of the Universums in comparison with the Tune Audio Anima...

YouTube binge...LOL, it’s an obsession, not only binge, can’t even remember how many times I fell asleep while watching sound samples of YouTube, I think I got pretty good at it already.

You hit the nail on my head! I completely forgot about the hORNS Universum just because of the shape! I got put off by the aesthetics early although many actually loves the shape of Universum. However, lately I just can’t help myself but thinking about tombstones when looking at pictures of the Anima, especially when it’s purple against red/purple background like how it’s showed on many YT Vids, somehow although totally unrelated, damn thing reminded me of the old school Chinese vampire horror movie I watched a lot when I was a little kid and it dang creeping me out. If I do get the Anima, it’s gotta be in black with veneer horns, definitely not a hint of purple or red, that would really creep me out, even then I am not sure if I can completely rid of my Chinese vampire self induced paranoia.

Thanks so much for the reminder for Universum, it is definitely back on my top list and will report back to you after another YouTube binge comparing Diesis-Anima-Universum!! Cheers!!

 

[howiebrou]

Have you considered Devore?

 

[howiebrou]

YouTube binge...LOL, it’s an obsession, not only binge, can’t even remember how many times I fell asleep while watching sound samples of YouTube, I think I got pretty good at it already.

You hit the nail on my head! I completely forgot about the hORNS Universum just because of the shape! I got put off by the aesthetics early although many actually loves the shape of Universum. However, lately I just can’t help myself but thinking about tombstones when looking at pictures of the Anima, especially when it’s purple against red/purple background like how it’s showed on many YT Vids, somehow although totally unrelated, damn thing reminded me of the old school Chinese vampire horror movie I watched a lot when I was a little kid and it dang creeping me out. If I do get the Anima, it’s gotta be in black with veneer horns, definitely not a hint of purple or red, that would really creep me out, even then I am not sure if I can completely rid of my Chinese vampire self induced paranoia.

Thanks so much for the reminder for Universum, it is definitely back on my top list and will report back to you after another YouTube binge comparing Diesis-Anima-Universum!! Cheers!!

I think the Universum looks fantastic and much much better than the Anima.