SAT carbon fibre tone arm from Sweden

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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To this an increase in their across the board pricing to the stratosphere is now implemented. Part of the strategy is that the same manufacturer will go to the various shows around the world and offer massive discounts to show goers to encourage good feelings--and additional sales.

Reminds me of a true episode from the early Nineties. A store (let's call it store B) in The Netherlands advertised an item as "reduced from 1,500 to 1,100". My dealer from back then was extremely aggravated and posted: "Store B's price, 'reduced from 1,500 to 1,100'. Our price: reduced from 1,100 to 1,100. But we also have real discounts!"
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
Davey, I have a MSL cartridge that originally came from A.J. Conti, though I bought it very slightly used through a friend at a heavy discount. It is a fantastic cartridge and I always wondered why there is no discussion or buzz about the brand. Conti was the US distributor and there was almost no advertising or support. It's a shame. Anyway, MSL is off topic. Back to SAT.

Peter I agree. Poor AJ was a great table designer and builder...not so much a great marketer. I am under the impression that Music Direct is now going to be distributing the MSL Line. They will apparently be adjusting prices to come more into the realm of what is realistic for the market....but wee shall see. If anything is to be garnered by their prior forays, i have little hope that anything really productive will ensue. One thing is for sure, MSL will continue to be a very small enterprise with little market penetration....unless, that is, the guys at MD get a clue.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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Utah
How many so you know??? How many so I know, LOL.

Please re-read my post...did I say that the manufacturer's are necessarily getting rich off these schemes?

Now I have to correct the autocorrect!:)

david
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Reminds me of a true episode from the early Nineties. A store (let's call it store B) in The Netherlands advertised an item as "reduced from 1,500 to 1,100". My dealer from back then was extremely aggravated and posted: "Store B's price, 'reduced from 1,500 to 1,100'. Our price: reduced from 1,100 to 1,100. But we also have real discounts!"

LMAO, that's a good one, Al.:D:D
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
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At around $30,000, this is already at full stretch. The quality of SAT together with Mr. Fremer’s review managed to sell itself to reach the production of 70 while the Vertere with its final enduser price about the same is a lot less so. If I were to manage this product, I would only launch the top new model in 9” and 12”. No need the lower price model. The brand should be view as the best. A cheaper model doesn’t reflect that. And not many people are going to be interested much in lower price model. At that lower price I can still buy the Thales Statement, Axiom, etc. that I can at least satisfy my big ego of having the top.
Then, Sell the new model at the same price level as original one. This would build a brand image of always being on the edge of tech and strive to give customers more values. Furthermore, give a privilege to existing owners to buy at some discount, no upgrade trade-in. There is definitely more than enough margin to do this. Most People who bought the original can afford to buy another one if they need another arm. People who spend this kind of money like being treated with privilege. Send new models to both Mr. Fremer and Mr. Astor who already like the original one to review. The review likely come out positive. This will create an itch for both new users and existing users. New buyers will sense more value getting even better arm for the price. While old users don’t feel too bad at least getting special option to buy at lower price than new users. 12” at a special discount will likely itch some existing users after reading positive reviews from the two reviewers. The new model also needs a real user of original one to give testimony confirming the new model is better than the original. The incentive scheme will give more chance of that.

Think about this. Although original 70 arms were sold at $29,000, some are still left at the stock of dealers. What does this tell about the demand at this price. Now $50,000 a pop.

I happen to have enough arms. I don’t want another one. Just thinking out loud. (Maybe too loud)

Tang :)
 
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Tango

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microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Jack, how would you describe the sonic differences between the Graham and the SAT?

Peter, we are not supposed to ask such difficult questions about expensive tonearms :D - our members imagination is more interested in knowing about the mark-up margin of both tonearms and the personnel fortune of the designers!
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,521
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USA
Peter, we are not supposed to ask such difficult questions about expensive tonearms :D - our members imagination is more interested in knowing about the mark-up margin of both tonearms and the personnel fortune of the designers!

I ask because every time I see a photo of a TechDAS table with one of each arm, the SAT is always in the position at right. Perhaps the back mounting plate is for longer arms. I'm curious to know if anyone prefers the Graham. If so, why? Graham used to be the preferred option on SME tables, but besides TechDAS, I don't see much discussion of Graham arms these days. I think I read that VPI and Durand are considering gimbal designs. Are unipivots going out of favor?
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
3,591
2,573
1,860
Sydney
I ask because every time I see a photo of a TechDAS table with one of each arm, the SAT is always in the position at right. Perhaps the back mounting plate is for longer arms. I'm curious to know if anyone prefers the Graham. If so, why? Graham used to be the preferred option on SME tables, but besides TechDAS, I don't see much discussion of Graham arms these days. I think I read that VPI and Durand are considering gimbal designs. Are unipivots going out of favor?

yea Peter, if you put a 12 inch arm on the front right, its needs to be back and can interfere with the back arm of any length p hence the 9 inch is generally in front if you also have a 12 inch arm.

surely your realise now that us audiophile are only interested in gear that is relatively new or so old you that they don't make them anymore :)
 

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
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Denmark
At around $30,000, this is already at full stretch. The quality of SAT together with Mr. Fremer’s review managed to sell itself to reach the production of 70 while the Vertere with its final enduser price about the same is a lot less so. If I were to manage this product, I would only launch the top new model in 9” and 12”. No need the lower price model. The brand should be view as the best. A cheaper model doesn’t reflect that. And not many people are going to be interested much in lower price model. At that lower price I can still buy the Thales Statement, Axiom, etc. that I can at least satisfy my big ego of having the top.
Then, Sell the new model at the same price level as original one. This would build a brand image of always being on the edge of tech and strive to give customers more values. Furthermore, give a privilege to existing owners to buy at some discount, no upgrade trade-in. There is definitely more than enough margin to do this. Most People who bought the original can afford to buy another one if they need another arm. People who spend this kind of money like being treated with privilege. Send new models to both Mr. Fremer and Mr. Astor who already like the original one to review. The review likely come out positive. This will create an itch for both new users and existing users. New buyers will sense more value getting even better arm for the price. While old users don’t feel too bad at least getting special option to buy at lower price than new users. 12” at a special discount will likely itch some existing users after reading positive reviews from the two reviewers. The new model also needs a real user of original one to give testimony confirming the new model is better than the original. The incentive scheme will give more chance of that.

Think about this. Although original 70 arms were sold at $29,000, some are still left at the stock of dealers. What does this tell about the demand at this price. Now $50,000 a pop.

I happen to have enough arms. I don’t want another one. Just thinking out loud. (Maybe too loud)

Tang :)
Tang, it is nice to see that you are finally putting your foot down, and saying ENOUGH !
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
3,591
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Sydney
Tang, it is nice to see that you are finally putting your foot down, and saying ENOUGH !

LOL - Do you really believe that? Tang will be off the analog wagon soon enough ;)
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
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1,820
Manila, Philippines
I ask because every time I see a photo of a TechDAS table with one of each arm, the SAT is always in the position at right. Perhaps the back mounting plate is for longer arms. I'm curious to know if anyone prefers the Graham. If so, why? Graham used to be the preferred option on SME tables, but besides TechDAS, I don't see much discussion of Graham arms these days. I think I read that VPI and Durand are considering gimbal designs. Are unipivots going out of favor?

I really don't know Peter. It would be interesting to see if there is an actual drop in demand for unipivots. My guess is that if we consider all tonearms, the greater majority are gimbal designs to begin with. As for the sound of the two, if I can borrow another TDTi, I can go for a direct AB. I could actually do a comparison now with 2 Chalcedony sub-family Koetsu Diamonds but in my experience Koetsus have performed better on gimbal arms vs unipivot and I would want the comparison to be fair by using carts that seem to not be handicapped by either.

On the AF placement, some arms can't be mounted in the rear position. The standard length 4-Point is an example. So aside from the difficulty of using a 12" (you need an adapter board for the front position, as XV-1 said) there are other reasons arms stay front right. The SAT went up front for me because the tower height/VTA adjustment would have been practically inaccessible from the rear position. It is not a problem for the Graham.
 

Halcro

Well-Known Member
Dec 25, 2012
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38
270
Because of the simplicity in design and manufacture of many basic belt-drive turntables and pivoted tonearms....it lends itself to small, individual backyard-garage type one or two man operations.
The British perfected this in the 70s with Linn, Rega, Naim and Meridien essentially starting like this.
The British also were the first to spin this modest method of production into an evolving and profitable form of semi-mass production.
The success of SAT tonearm sales at their ludicrous prices, enables Marc Gomez to keep his production as a one or two man backyard-operation with minimum overheads and maximum out-sourcing of specialist subcontractors such as machine shops and parts suppliers.
At sales of 70 arms over four or five years, he needs to produce just one arm a month to maintain a usable income whilst keeping an unstressed and happy family life with time for hobbies and holidays.
I read an interview some years ago with Frank Schroeder who proclaimed exactly this philosophy.....
He wanted a happy relaxed life with time for his family and hobbies and so, hand-made his unique wood tonearms only to pre-order deposits with a wait for the customer of up to two years.
For Marc to elevate his production model to a semi-mass-production one with staff, overheads, facilities etc in order to lower costs for a potentially larger market is both stressful and filled with risks.
That does not imply that his current pricing structure is a true reflection of the costs to produce these arms.....:mad:
 

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