Sadurni Acoustics horns - any thoughts?

[Saturntube]

In our Sadurni Acoustics horns we use different drivers, selected for their sound at that frequency, we use the driver that sounded best, cost no object! If it didn´t exist, we had it made for us!

The midrange "turbine" horn uses a compression driver.
The Upper Bass Horn uses a dynamic/cone woofer implemented in such a way, as described earlier, that the response is 110 dB.
All XOvers are first order.

The turbine horn is shaped that way so that the sound coming form the tweeter wouldnt hit the back side of a traditional horn and cause imaging difussion. With the "turbine" profile, high frequencies, slide through the sides and allow us to get pin point imaging.

The size of the turbine horn is the porper size for the frequency it is handling, it is a Tactrix profile that allows for very close range listening (which I personally love). For the frequencies it is designed for, it loads the lower portion of the range perfectly, a Little bigger and the response would go lower, thus invading the range of the upper bass horn causing doubling of the sound and posible distortion. It is small enough so that the higher frequencies, at the range we want it to play at, can make it out of the horn. Making a longer horn causes rapid decay of higher frequencies.
We wanted the midrange to be played by one driver for the longest range posible, this gives us a better coherence in sound and imaging. The supertweeters come in at around 10 kHz.
If we used a different profile, for example: LeCLeach, it would be a much bigger horn, we tried it and liked the sound of Tactrix better.

 

[BD-Audio]

Apologies, double post.

 

[Saturntube]

Thank You LL21. I really appreciate your comment.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jack of BD Audio, I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes the Anima is 3 way if you include the down firing basshorn. Just as the AG Duo is 3 way if you incl the twin woofers per side. The AG Trio is now 4 way if you incl the Basshorn G2, as is the Cessaro Beta if again you combine w/a separate Basshorn. And the Sadurni is 4 way too. I believe AG Uno, Duo and Anima need to be put in one category, Liszt next w/the 13" Supravox dynamic cone, and Sadurni, Trio and Beta in the next.
Listen, this is NOT a criticism of the Anima, Uno, Duo etc. As Keith and Bonzo will tell you, I love the Chopin, Liszt and Duo sounds. The Trio was on a whole other scale when I heard it a few yrs ago. The Anima, I honestly struggled with. If the Sadurni can combine the best of Duo, Liszt and Trio presentations, then I'm a very interested customer.

 

[bonzo75]

Jack of BD Audio, I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes the Anima is 3 way if you include the down firing basshorn. Just as the AG Duo is 3 way if you incl the twin woofers per side. The AG Trio is now 4 way if you incl the Basshorn G2, as is the Cessaro Beta if again you combine w/a separate Basshorn. And the Sadurni is 4 way too. I believe AG Uno, Duo and Anima need to be put in one category, Liszt next w/the 13" Supravox dynamic cone, and Sadurni, Trio and Beta in the next.
Listen, this is NOT a criticism of the Anima, Uno, Duo etc. As Keith and Bonzo will tell you, I love the Chopin, Liszt and Duo sounds. The Trio was on a whole other scale when I heard it a few yrs ago. The Anima, I honestly struggled with. If the Sadurni can combine the best of Duo, Liszt and Trio presentations, then I'm a very interested customer.

By that logic, the Anima is 4-way if you include the Sub.

 

[spiritofmusic]

No Ked, the Anima is completely analogous to the Duo in horn provision. Both have tweeter horn, both have mids horn, Anima uses down firing sub horn/Duo uses woofers. Neither has the big lwr mids/upr bass horn that Sadurni and Trio do.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, I don't want this to become a thread critical of other designs. Tbh, I don't have enough tech knowledge to make such judgements.
My aim is to get a chance to listen to these horns, because the available choice is very limited, the Sadurnis being one such, and I like the comments I've heard so far, and the design aesthetic.
My request is still for people who've heard them, or own them, to come fwd w/comments.
Once Jorge gets back to me, I'll try and make plans to travel to hear them.

 

[Saturntube]

Hi Keith,

The Sadurni Acoustics horns are 4 ways. The subwoofers go from 25 hz to 120 hz , The front horns go down to 100 hz and this is a big deal. you really want this one to go that low so that most instruments can be played by a front horn. The lower the horn goes the better sound you get, the crisper notes and better integration to the woofers-subwoofer under it. Midrange compression driver and supertweeter.

XOver points are roughly: 100hz, 600hz and 10 kHz

The upper bass horn can fit through almost any door since it is divided in two parts.

Best.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thank you Jorge. Well this explains why I really do not get on with the Animas. Jorge's Sadurnis and eg the Avantgarde Trios/Basshorns G2's cross mids to tweeter at 10kHz, lower mids-upper bass to mids at 600 Hz, and subs to lower mids-upper bass at 100Hz. Emminently reasonable. The Animas cross mids to tweeter at 1.5kHz! And bass to mids at 150 Hz. Hence a totally different presentation, and a greater emphasis on tweeter output.
Now I only mention this because part of this thread has become a comparison to other designs. Maybe the Animas x'over points can be justified? I don't see how.
Thanks again for the input Jorge, my interest is piqued further by your choices on x'over being similar to the more established near SOTA Trio/Basshorn.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Mark,

Hope the search for the Sadurni sound is going to come to something substantial for you.

Just hoping since the thread pretty much from OP has really had an ongoing discussion about the potential of the Sadurnis in comparison to the various pros and cons you experienced with the AGs, Animas and Cessaro as well. Just wondering can you fill us in on the circumstances of these experiences with the comparison speakers.

Just the basic things such as the components involved in each setup, was it in a showroom or home audition or at shows etc, it would be great to just get a bit better sense of the context of your earlier auditions.

Cheers
Graham

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok, my background is that I moved to Zu Definitions spkrs (from ProAcs) some 6 years ago, which are effectively x'overless, and run full range drivers 40Hz-11kHz, at 101 dB/m efficient. This has allowed my move to SETs via Audions to current Nat Audio 75W/ch 211s.
Five years ago I got my first exposure to horns, a pair of Avantgarde AG Trio Classicos w/separate 213 cone subs, at a dealer, w/TW Acustic AC3 tt and Tron tube amps. I just LOVED the wall to wall presentation, effortlessness dynamics, texture, lightness of touch, but struggled w/what I considered to be poor transition to the subs, which just slowed things down and broke the spell. At this point I didn't bother investigating further, so happy w/my Zus, but have maintained an interest.
Then, 12 months ago I got the chance to hear Cessaro Liszts, at a dealer, w/Weiss digital, GP Monaco tt, Bakoon ss amps. Again I was bowled over by the vibrancy of the horn sound, but struggled w/the bass integration in the room. Purite Keith assured me this was a function of room nodes, not the spkrs, but w/no sale or return to prove if this was true, I walked away.
Then I went to hear the Tune Audio Animas (250 mile round trip), at a dealer, w/Modwright ss amps, mainly at Bonzo's behest who raved about them continuously. My first horns all-'round letdown. Just nothing wked for me, finding the sound overly "hot" and terse (maybe explained by the choice of x'over points?), just no magic. Excellent impact on brass, but that's about it.
Recently I have had a handful of stress free demos at a fellow WBF guy's house around the corner from me (Blue58) w/his AG Duos, using Audio Aero La Fontaine cdp/dac (and Lampi GG dsd dac), Aries streamer, exquisite home made 2W tube amps, and this was much more like it. Melting into those mids, woken up by startling dynamics, and for the first time much better integration into the bass. I would call this experience wholly positive, w/only the slight caveat that I do feel horns are a little challenged when expected to get 'down and dirty' w/poorly recorded/flat/decidedly non audiophile material.
I am reinvestigating horns as a result of this turnaround in what I'm hearing, and this means looking at a pair of current spec AG Duos, maybe reconsidering Trios w/Basshorns G2 which I do believe will give me the previous Trio thrill w/much more seamless sub bass, and now these Sadurnis, which at a smaller entrance ticket than the Trios/Basshorns G2 poss present v.similarly. Undoubtedly the Trios and Sadurnis have more in common with each other than even w/the Duos, Liszts, and the Animas.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks Mark,
Was thinking from what you said might have been with Modwright as was also on demo at Munich. I've listened to the Animas for many hours on dozens of occasions with a mix of class A SS, Bakoon and 300b SET amps and while the Modwright is clearly operating favourably in its early class A watts however the magic from my experience with the Animas really happens with valve amps and I would imagine the Nat 211s would be quite the match. However completely get your logic with why the Sadurnis might be your speaker. Looking forward to your getting to hear them.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Deleted double post

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Mark,

Was thinking it might have been Modwright on the Animas as also was used at Munich.

I've heard the big Tunes many times for quite a few hours with a range of amps with Class A, Bakoon and 300B SET and while the Modwright might have been operating favourably in its early class A watts the real magic with the big Tunes comes with all valve. They'd probably be wonderful with the Nat 211s but completely get your logic with why you think you should go and check out the Sadurnis, they look great. Looking forward to hearing about the experience.

Graham, I have also heard them with 30w Aries Cerat valves and they sound excellent.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Bonzo, I believe Manolis from Tune is also very keen on Aries Cerat and they did demo at Munich with them earlier... Would really have loved to hear the Aries Cerat.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, the Animas not for me. And their choice of x/over explains why. That's me done re them, I really don't want Jack of BD Audio think my life's work is trashing the brand. His hospitality when visiting was excellent, and I can see where others would love them.
And tbh, horns have got to sound decent w/both tubes AND ss. AG works well w/SETs and their ss amps. Liszts were v.presentable w/Bakoon ss and I know are excellent w/SETs (at the Munich show). Sadurni sound good w/Merrill ss and Jorges's tube amps. Anima and Modwight was not my cup of Earl Grey and I will not consider horns only good w/ss OR tubes, but not both.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Guys, the Animas not for me. And their choice of x/over explains why. That's me done re them, I really don't want Jack of BD Audio think my life's work is trashing the brand. His hospitality when visiting was excellent, and I can see where others would love them.
And tbh, horns have got to sound decent w/both tubes AND ss. AG works well w/SETs and their ss amps. Liszts were v.presentable w/Bakoon ss and I know are excellent w/SETs (at the Munich show). Sadurni sound good w/Merrill ss and Jorges's tube amps. Anima and Modwight was not my cup of Earl Grey and I will not consider horns only good w/ss OR tubes, but not both.

Hi Spirit,
I am very much with you on the Animas - think they are poor to be honest. Soundstaging is not there, music appears to come from the drivers and they are shouty. Trios are an entirely different proposition and far superior. I don't know Sadurnis. I would go for Trios instead of Duos as the bass integration of the latter will annoy you after a while.

 

[marslo]

Hi Spirit,
I am very much with you on the Animas - think they are poor to be honest. Soundstaging is not there, music appears to come from the drivers and they are shouty. Trios are an entirely different proposition and far superior. I don't know Sadurnis. I would go for Trios instead of Duos as the bass integration of the latter will annoy you after a while.

Inspired by bonzo I scheduled a visit to AG facility in a few days. After nearly 5 years with Duo omega it's time to think about Trios. That's a pitty that Sadurni are not represented in Poland , Animas either. Cessaro did not impress me with their presentations in Munich 2014 and Warsaw Audio Show. I was rather impressed by Accapelas with TT in Munich '14 though. Sure, the Trios and Sadurni have more complex design and low midrange horn, some could claim the bass integration weaknesses in Duo, but their p/q ratio is very tempting.
Together with right SET amp they represent very interesting option just " good enough" imho.

 

[marslo]

As I already made a mistake what driver/crossover realy means and I am not techie guy I would refer to the AG website :
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/duo-specifications-en.html

I am sure collegues will better answer your question.

There is an extensive review of duos but only in polish , I hesitate if I should mention that but maybe uncle google will help:
http://audio.com.pl/pdf/testy/zespoly glosnikowe/avantgarde_duo_omega.pdf

 

[spiritofmusic]

I was just taking back my old Audion amps from the repair shop, and happened to talk about the Sadurnis esp wrt Trios/Basshorns G2's. My repair guy has a lot to say about horns, and very much liked the Sadurnis, esp the ability to time align the drivers which he feels is essential due the depth of horns (a Sadurni selling point), contended the labyrinth backwave/Tapped Horn principle of the Sadurni subs was v. interesting, was in favour of mdf instead of plastic, and actually wasn't a great fan of the tweeter choice in the Trios.
My final choice in horns (if I move from the Zus) is coming down to a straight decision btwn the Sadurnis and AG Trios/Basshorns G2's, and despite the logical choice being Trios, my instinct is the Sadurnis may be superior, at least where interesting tech choices are concerned.