Reflections on cable pricing insanity

[MarinJim]

Purist Audio Design has a great new somewhat low cost new cable line called Genesis.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd,

Sorry, but such cable does not exist ... I do not understand any more what people are referring to. Bellow Opus you have Reference MM2 tout court. It this the cable you own?

http://www.transparentcable.com/products/performance_sublevel_intro.php?catID=1&perfID=2&subcatID=2&modCAT=1

Considering the intermittent connection remember that sometimes some non standard RCA plugs manage to short ground and signal if you push them completely into the female connector - try pulling it half a millimeter and look if the signal comes back.

That is EXACTLY what appears to have happened. Thank you. I prefer the old metal RCA connectors TA used to make...these new plastic ones do not screw on and off as smoothly imho. The sound is fully back.

As for which cable i own...it is the one below Opus...i've checked the pictures. the oval'ish shaped network box says Transparent Reference MM2. (The 'regular' Transparent reference just says Transparent Reference on the network box, i believe). I am still waiting to hear back from TA on my cables...any non-manufacturer guidance is welcome on calibration.

 

[edorr]

Yeah, it's thoroughly confusing. I find it easiest to rewind to the mid 90s.

At that time there were various levels of Transparent cable with Reference being the top end.

Toward the late '90s transparent developed "XL Technology" and used it to create their new top-end cable called "Reference XL." After that was released they applied the developments of "XL" to the lower lines at which point, in order to differentiate, the levels were referred to as "with XL tech." So you had super, ultra, reference "with XL technology." You can tell an XL version of those cables with an XL stamped to the end of the serial number.

In the early '00s Opus was developed and with it came a new technology called MM and the same thing happened as when XL was developed in that the technology was applied to the lower levels and they were labeled as, "with MM tech." Now they had a Reference XL with MM tech. At the same time they took what they learned with the all-out-assault that was Opus and created Reference MM to slot between Reference XL and Opus. Basically, it's a lot of the features of Opus with a lower price point and simpler construction.

Sometime around 2008 they refined MM technology with some minor tweaks (mostly in housing and connector materials) and called this refinement MM2. All MM (or MM1) cables at the reference level or above could be converted to MM2 at a nominal cost (frankly cheap for Transparent).

So, depending on vintage you have:

Super, Ultra, Reference
Super, Ultra, Reference, Reference XL (with XL tech)
Super, Ultra, Reference, Reference XL, Reference MM, Opus (with MM tech)
Super, Ultra, Reference, Reference XL, Reference MM2, Opus (with MM2 tech)

Some interesting things to note about TA cables....

For the most part the tuning that is done is based on the source impedance although load impedance plays a role as the level goes up. At the Reference level (assuming MM, MM2) it's just a high / low tuning based on typical tube or SS values. With XL and above it's tuned to the specific components in use and the tolerances get tighter the higher you go in the line.

When speaker cables are tuned they take into account component placement (between speakers, left side, right side) along with the placement of the + / - terminals on the speakers and amps. The pigtails on the cables are then arranged appropriately so that they can be connected without having to cross each other at the speaker or amp terminals.

Naming of models and generations and associated pricing is such an incomprehensible mess there is now a guy on audiogon listing 3 pre mm reference cables that sold for $6000 a pair over a decade ago as $36,000 new, asking $12,000 for the three. These are the exact same cables I bought for $1,200 a pair two years ago .....

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/sp...42xl-2542xl-2013-03-14-cables-75218-dallas-tx

 

[LL21]

Mindnumbingly ridiculously good'!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally had the system running for several hours and as a result of the new cable needed to adjust the sub a bit...took 2 sessions and about an hour combined to get it right. Then along with added time I suppose...the cable has been in a box for nearly 3 months...holy sh-t! It smokes my 13-yr old TA Ref!

Sensational...like Mindnumbingly sensational. I honestly have no idea what happened in the last 45 minutes.

The sound did cut out in that same cable...I screwed it in again and perfect...loose wire or loose connection?

Otherwise, if I rated my TA Ref (vintage '00) around 65, these are 180 or so. One cable and the whole system is stunningly clearer, stronger, more detailed, natural...I honestly don't get it. When I first put it in, it was a draw...I was expectant and "ok" with it and asking about calibration because I thought it might help on the margin...now I frankly don't care.

 

[Groucho]

...I sent my speaker cables and interconnects back to TA for re-calibration...

This is a new one on me. What does cable re-calibration do?

 

[jfrech]

Mindnumbingly ridiculously good'!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally had the system running for several hours and as a result of the new cable needed to adjust the sub a bit...took 2 sessions and about an hour combined to get it right. Then along with added time I suppose...the cable has been in a box for nearly 3 months...holy sh-t! It smokes my 13-yr old TA Ref!

Sensational...like Mindnumbingly sensational. I honestly have no idea what happened in the last 45 minutes.

The sound did cut out in that same cable...I screwed it in again and perfect...loose wire or loose connection?

Otherwise, if I rated my TA Ref (vintage '00) around 65, these are 180 or so. One cable and the whole system is stunningly clearer, stronger, more detailed, natural...I honestly don't get it. When I first put it in, it was a draw...I was expectant and "ok" with it and asking about calibration because I thought it might help on the margin...now I frankly don't care.

Your Transparent Ref MM w/MM2 is one of the best. Your reaction doesn't surprise me...similar to mine...especially given the great system you have. I will say that callibration may help it even more...and of course even more of their wire in your system....we love to spend your money around here !!

 

[jfrech]

This is a new one on me. What does cable re-calibration do?

Hi Groucho....maybe read this...it might help http://www.transparentcable.com/design/audio_cable_networks.php?catID=1&modCAT=1

 

[LL21]

Your Transparent Ref MM w/MM2 is one of the best. Your reaction doesn't surprise me...similar to mine...especially given the great system you have. I will say that callibration may help it even more...and of course even more of their wire in your system....we love to spend your money around here !!

Hah! Thanks, Jfrech...i have upgraded my 13-yr old SC to TA XLMM2 last year. Now all i have left is the IC between pre and amp, and also the one from pre to Sub...though that is original TA Ref XL and i will likely just leave it since its only operating at 40hz and below...i gotta draw the line on that one!

The Wilsons are already wired with Transparent inside, and i use TA Power Isolater/Conditioner so that's as much Transparent as the system can take!

 

[LL21]

This is a new one on me. What does cable re-calibration do?

As i understand the primary recalibration refers to matching the impedance levels of the cable to the equipment. This can make quite a difference in certain systems when people are pushing for the edge of the state of the art. I personally have not heard a cable befeore calibration and after, so i cannot say. My SCs were calibrated when they arrived...my 2nd hand RefMM2 are not calibrated specifically to my equipment but frankly they're so good, i am not interested in pay nearly the same price as what i paid for them used...just for the calibration. (Recalibration is free 'forever' for original buyers of the cable.)

 

[flez007]

As i understand the primary recalibration refers to matching the impedance levels of the cable to the equipment. This can make quite a difference in certain systems when people are pushing for the edge of the state of the art. I personally have not heard a cable befeore calibration and after, so i cannot say. My SCs were calibrated when they arrived...my 2nd hand RefMM2 are not calibrated specifically to my equipment but frankly they're so good, i am not interested in pay nearly the same price as what i paid for them used...just for the calibration. (Recalibration is free 'forever' for original buyers of the cable.)

My MIT Magnums sport this "network" to calibrate impedance and better fit to any particular situation, mostly when running from preamp to amp runs. At the beginning it bothered me a little to have a box as part of the cable, but after some recent amp changes I had, it looks like a "handy" feature.

 

[Groucho]

Hi Groucho....maybe read this...it might help http://www.transparentcable.com/design/audio_cable_networks.php?catID=1&modCAT=1

Thanks, I had noticed the 'bumps' on some cables without knowing what they were.

About the link you point to, and probably all other expensive audio cable manufacturers' sales blurb... does the wording not strike anyone as rather non-committal and 'pseudo-'technical in many respects? Alarm bells and all that.

But I'll leave it there!

 

[edorr]

...my 2nd hand RefMM2 are not calibrated specifically to my equipment but frankly they're so good, i am not interested in pay nearly the same price as what i paid for them used...just for the calibration. (Recalibration is free 'forever' for original buyers of the cable.)

Lloyd, no doubt you're a sharp negotiator, but the price of calibration is 10% of MSRP, and I estimate the rock bottom lowest you can get used MM2's for is 40% of MSRP (more likely 50%), so calibration would be 25% of what you paid for the cable. Since the committed audiophile spends inordinate amounts of money to get the list 5% of performance out of their electronics, I say get the cables calibrated and be done with it. If you suffer from audiophilia nervosa like most of us here, you will not be able to sleep in peace if you don't.

 

[opus111]

About the link you point to, and probably all other expensive audio cable manufacturers' sales blurb... does the wording not strike anyone as rather non-committal and 'pseudo-'technical in many respects? Alarm bells and all that.

I'm left wondering if Henry Ott is aware his quotes are being used ? They do look to me to be taken somewhat out of context.

 

[still-one]

I am auditioning a pair of Transparents Opus speaker cables in my system. I have been using Reference MM2. What a difference these cables make. Better low end, better highs, more articulated notes, instruments better defined in space. The pair was tuned for XLF / Momentums and seem match perfectly with my X2 Series 2 and Momentum's. I may have to rethink my position that it is absurd to spend this type of money on speakers cables.

 

[edorr]

I am auditioning a pair of Transparents Opus speaker cables in my system. I have been using Reference MM2. What a difference these cables make. Better low end, better highs, more articulated notes, instruments better defined in space. The pair was tuned for XLF / Momentums and seem match perfectly with my X2 Series 2 and Momentum's. I may have to rethink my position that it is absurd to spend this type of money on speakers cables.

It will always be absurd. The issue is it justifyable absurdity or irrational absurdity. The jury seems to be leaning towards the former.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd, no doubt you're a sharp negotiator, but the price of calibration is 10% of MSRP, and I estimate the rock bottom lowest you can get used MM2's for is 40% of MSRP (more likely 50%), so calibration would be 25% of what you paid for the cable. Since the committed audiophile spends inordinate amounts of money to get the list 5% of performance out of their electronics, I say get the cables calibrated and be done with it. If you suffer from audiophilia nervosa like most of us here, you will not be able to sleep in peace if you don't.

Hi Edorr, thanks for the advice and makes sense. In my case, i bought my cables for 25 cents on the dollar...but i was told recalibration is 15% of retail. I am happy to leave the cable as is. I have had my goals for upgrading, but i am satisfied to leave well enough alone given the uplift i have. 90% of my equipment is second hand so i am used to having to wait for the right deal incl certain compromises, and living with it. The net savings is worth it, even though it has taken several years instead of months to build this system.

 

[rockitman]

I may have to rethink my position that it is absurd to spend this type of money on speakers cables.

That is what I am thinking. MIT MA-X SHD is a game changer for my X-2.2's. I never though I would spend that much on speaker cables up to a month ago. To me it is worth it and necessary for my All out Assault on audio reproduction.

 

[edorr]

Hi Edorr, thanks for the advice and makes sense. In my case, i bought my cables for 25 cents on the dollar...but i was told recalibration is 15% of retail. I am happy to leave the cable as is. I have had my goals for upgrading, but i am satisfied to leave well enough alone given the uplift i have. 90% of my equipment is second hand so i am used to having to wait for the right deal incl certain compromises, and living with it. The net savings is worth it, even though it has taken several years instead of months to build this system.

Who on earth sold you these cables for 25% of MSRP? A that price I would be using Opus all around myself (and sell them with a profit after 5 years of happy use). In any case, should you ever decide you want to calibrate, I can hook you up with a dealer that can get it done for 10% of MSRP.

 

[microstrip]

Who on earth sold you these cables for 25% of MSRP? A that price I would be using Opus all around myself (and sell them with a profit after 5 years of happy use). In any case, should you ever decide you want to calibrate, I can hook you up with a dealer that can get it done for 10% of MSRP.

Is he located in Europe? For people located outside the US part of the cost of recalibrating TA cables is due to cost of shipping and dealing with paperwork for temporary export.

 

[Orb]

Cables are an intersting thing. Everyone feels they sound different but no one can pick out their cable from another. I am sure I couldn't either but yet agree there is a difference.

Yeah.
Just to add how much of a pain it is, and one aspect to try (invert polarity) for a fun test sighted and then blind and importantly requiring identifying.

Funny thing though I bet quite a few here can tell difference in sound if their preamp has an invert polarity switch, especially if train to identify specific traits on specific songs (certain instruments,etc.).
Now try that as double blind with identifying if inverted or not, my money is most will fail big time, for reasons I explained in the lengthy thread last year (lot of debate regarding biases and testing) regarding my concerns of some JND testing and how some aspects pushed within audio tech circles does not necessarily match up to JND research industry and circles outside of said group.
JA has touched on some of his concerns as well in the past, and I spent some time in the past highlighting biases that will/can skew results (in same thread I indirectly mention above as well) of double blind ABX/AB/etc.
For truly subtle changes, it is a nightmare to control and ensure all biases do not skew results nor that one causes cognitive confusion or anchor type bias issues, which results would not necessarily match long term listening preferences-behaviour anyway.
Just my take, but I was using a lot of research papers to make my point on this last year.
As interesting as the discussions regarding timbre/microdynamics and how it is approached in different circles of professionals and also university research.
Cheers
Orb