Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,447
6
38
Utah
#41
Last edited:
Dec 20, 2014
200
1
18
#42
This thread is highly amusing insofar as it sadly appears to re-iterate the debates on Audiogon, HiFIWigWam, Pinkfishmedia et al... I am convinced that DDK was trying to put a different slant insofar as encouraging people to positively reflect aspects of certain drive mechanisms. In the red corner Purrite and his crusade with GP Monaco, and in the blue corner...;)

Anyway I am not trying to stir trouble save for the fact that there's a real split between facts, figures, and pseudo science going on. Maybe there ought to be new methods of measurements out there for the pseudo scientists??
 

morricab

Active Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,289
3
38
Switzerland
#44
I personally find it a bit disappointing that some of the greatest TT engineering has been relatively ignored here. I am referring to late 1970s through mid 1980s direct drive turntables from Japan. The mighty Exclusive P3, The Yamaha GT-2000, the Kenwood L-07, the Nakamichi TX-1000 etc. The hunting of the old servos was all but eliminated with sophisticated bi-directional servos (Thanks JVC) and high mass platters (Kenwoods and Yamaha's were both over 6Kg...and Yamahas was oversized with more weight on the outside for inertia). Also, and this was mentioned earlier, the motors were all out custom efforts in most cases. This meant that they eliminated cogging in several models by coming up with coreless and slotless and sometimes even brushless designs (like the Kenwood). So, they eliminated cogging and the hunting issues and the result is smooth confident sound with impeccable timing. I own a GT-2000 and I have tested many TTs now with my Allnic Speednic, which is very sensitive to instantaneous speed changes, and I have yet to test a more stable TT than my Yamaha...even when playing a record or under direct load (from a finger on the platter for example). The belt drives we have tested all fared much worse...even my friends bit Transrotor with three motors and magnetically decoupled drive system. I am quite sure all high mass/low torque belt drives will not be as stable with a record actually playing.

If any of you guys have an Allnic Speednic then try it out with the record playing and watch it carefully. I wish I had video taped it....maybe a project over the holidays.

Now, that is not to say that all DD TTs from that era are great...but the best ones will go toe to toe with anything made today.

Now there is one other TT that is worth discussion that seems to have fallen through the cracks and this is the Voyd Reference. The Voyd is the best belt drive TT I have ever heard. It has a HUGE power supply for the 3 large Papst motors that are arranged in a triangle around the Lexan platter. Light platter, high torque with phase locked external rotor motors. It has dynamics and drive that I have never heard from anything other than a top DD or idler drive TT. No other belt driver does it the same way from what I have heard (even other TTs with three motors...usually they still have small power suppplies and large heavy platters). Only the noise of the three motors being under the platter sullies the sound somewhat. Also, the suspension is, how shall we say, archaic and difficult to set up correctly. I had a 3 motor Voyd, but not the reference, and I still have very fond memories of this awesome TT...only a great DD took me away.

FWIW, I have head a couple of the DD EMTs and they are nowhere near as good as the last of the great Japanese TTs. They had cogging motors and less sophisticated servos.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,447
6
38
Utah
#45
ddk?
did you ever hear one of the large Melcos?
guess it would be a contender up against your MS s
best
Leif
Hi Leif,
I never owned a Melco but heard them a few times in a friend's system side by side with with a Micro RX-5000. I think that it was either the 3560 or the 3533 he had and it sounded wonderful, just as good as the RX-5000 with the Melco having a bit more detail and extension in the bass. The bigger Micros, SX-8000, SX-8000mk2 and SZ-1t are sonically superior.

david
 
Jan 18, 2012
547
0
0
Drobak Norway
#46
hi D
when I studied in Stockholm between 1978-82 a friend had the second largest tripod Melco with the 35kg bronze platter, silk driven from a huge motor assy
these were cast by the very same monks that made the temple bells and they sure knew what they were doing getting the airbubbles out to ensure clean sound
it had an air"bearing" Dennesen arm and the for the time fab Grado signature no
the combo has a solidity and musicality that was unprecedented at the time, all presented by a pair of my,still favourite electrostatic the Beveridge SW2
best
Leif
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,447
6
38
Utah
#47
hi D
when I studied in Stockholm between 1978-82 a friend had the second largest tripod Melco with the 35kg bronze platter, silk driven from a huge motor assy
these were cast by the very same monks that made the temple bells and they sure knew what they were doing getting the airbubbles out to ensure clean sound
it had an air"bearing" Dennesen arm and the for the time fab Grado signature no
the combo has a solidity and musicality that was unprecedented at the time, all presented by a pair of my,still favourite electrostatic the Beveridge SW2
best
Leif
Hi Leif,
That combination is still hard to beat even today must have been some special experience all the way back then!

35kg was their top platter, they didn't have heavier but they had a choice of heavier bases like their platters. The casting was one thing, the challenge was to deaden the platters so they didn't ring like a bell. Common mistake I see these days is people cleaning up the old oxidized Melco & Micro platters to make them shiny without realizing that they're removing the coating that deadened them so they wouldn't ring.

david
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,854
45
48
Bangkok
#48
Dear Khun David,

Where do you put your second arm on the 927...on the back left corner of the plinth or on an armbase bolted to the chassis of the tt? What is a better way to do, Sir.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,447
6
38
Utah
#49
Dear Khun David,

Where do you put your second arm on the 927...on the back left corner of the plinth or on an armbase bolted to the chassis of the tt? What is a better way to do, Sir.

Kind regards,
Tang
Dear Khun Tang,

My EMT is the F series which has a larger chassis and comes with two arms installed the one you're buying is the ST which only takes one arm but a friend of mine has devised a way to mount a 2nd arm on the heavy base, you can see it here;

https://audiocirc.com/2017/08/20/why-mono/

He's using a Micro Seiki style armboard and arm post is connected to a piece of steel which is screwed on to the heavy base.

david

PS. You remind me that I should complete the series on these turntables with the missing EMT article!
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,447
6
38
Utah
#50
A couple of pictures from airbearing,

emt-r-80-927.jpg

DSC04992-01.jpg

david
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,854
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Bangkok
#51
Aha..micro seiki attached to the Studiotechnik suspension frame. Thank you for showing the way DDK and Airbearing.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,854
45
48
Bangkok
#53
Dear Tang,
i recently discovered my WBF password.

here is my report from the visit at David in October

https://audiocirc.com/2017/10/10/red-rocks/

best
E.
Sawasdee E,

I have been following your journey from your site. In fact, bought some stuffs from what you shared in audiocircle.com to get actual taste of how they are :D. The latest acquisition was Grant Green's Matador 45s. I just enjoyed them yesterday.

Btw. my second armbase for 927 that you gave idea how to do is almost done. I ended up not using the Micro base and have my tonearm guy do the fabrication for me. Will show some pics when done.

Thank you for sharing,
Tang
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,854
45
48
Bangkok
#57
It is up and running now. I installed the rewired Ortofon 297 back to the EMT yesterday. The new copper wire is from Cardas. I also bypass all the original nonsense wire routing fron tonearm directly to RCA input of my phono. It is nonsense for me because the original wire routing is for 927 that comes with an original phono box, but my EMT didnt come with the phono. Picture below shows how the wire run before the bypass. Too fuzzy with many connecting points.

20171221_090840_resized.jpg

Before the tonearm was rewired I had the Anna on. I didnt like what I was hearing. To be honest, the sound was a few steps below both my Techdas and Kronos setups. Now instead I put Atlas SL on the EMT J-headshell. The four legs of headshell where cartridge leads suppose to attach to were too long I had to trim them short and soldered the leads to them, otherwise I couldnt mount the Atlas on this headshell. Ddk told me to keep the distance from arm end to the tip of stylus around 31 mm. Thats what I did. With the EMT J-headshell and Atlas SL, the counterweight of the Ortofon was not enough. I had to diy additional counterweight with a brass ring. It looks stupid but stupid seems to work just fine.

20171222_075442_resized.jpg

20171222_075211_resized.jpg

The sound? Wayyyy better than when I had Anna on the arm without rewiring and a bypass.
I have only been listening for 5-6 hours. With the rewired Ortofon 297, the sound of Atlas is a lot less "show off" almost like it's been tamed down on the analytical part, which now sound very pleasing. The dynamic is still A+. I never heard the Atlas with such good vocal like this. It even sounds warm. The tonal balance is not like I used to hearing. Very unlike Atlas SL when on SAT arm. Am I hearing the table or arm/cart combo, I havent figure it out yet. I will write more to try to describe the sound I get from this EMT when I listen to it long enough to have confidence in saying. Right now I am just enjoying the 927 very much. It is now at least on the same level as my other two tts, but I still have more things in my sleeve to optimize the 927 which will further better its sq.

If my posting here is inappropriate on this thread, pls tell me, I will remove it right away. I think am approaching The Step Beyond so I piggy back ddk's thread here :D.

Tang
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,854
45
48
Bangkok
#59
Nice. What happens when you use the Arche headshell on your atlas instead of the EMT?
You cant use the Arche on this Ortofon arm. The Arche is too long to mount any cart for a proper setup with this arm. 31 mm from the edge of the arm to the stylus tip is critical. The J-headshell is very short.

Wait another three months when I get my custom Axiom 14" for the 927, I will let you know.

Btw, You see in the pic I am not using any record weight. Maybe you want to send me the expensive Dalby of yours to try Kedar. :p

Tang