Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

[DaveC]

I didn't say anything about an audible effect. I was speaking of a fundamental principal in electronics. You can't filter high frequencies and expect your transient response to not get worse.

As to 60 Hz, you better not be filtering that or you would be filtering the power coming in!

I can agree to that Tom. Folks don't know what they have got (noise) until it's gone. Up until that point, they never knew they had any to begin with.

Tom

Yes, this is generally the case... When it's really bad it's more noticeable, especially when the contamination changes due to time of day so the system sounds better late at night, or at a show environment where the power is always questionable.

Some people are lucky enough to have good power and conditioning doesn't do as much for these folks, but it's always a good idea to protect your system from electrical surges, which is something left out of a lot of power distribution devices. I can't see needing to buy a separate box and yet another power cable to get surge protection which is why I modify the SurgeX products. They have the best surge protection, it's completely transparent, and their emi/rfi filter is also excellent.

 

[LL21]

Thanks, Marty. I suppose that my question is 3 parts:

1. Do our technical experts on this forum believe this story? (Personally, i would expect people do.)

2. Does this then mean it is reasonable to take away that such equipment also reduces noise floor on audio equipment?

3. If 2 above is YES, then the final question is can people hear the effect of such lowered noise floor?

My gut says yes to all 3 but i ask questions of the technical guys here.

From my personal experience with the Shunyata gear in an audio environment, the answer is yes to all three. Being an engineer and a past electronic technician, the fact Shunyata explains the science and engineering behind their products has been a big reason why I tried their gear. The fact that it works is why I am a big fan.

Thanks for that...good to know.

 

[marty]

Thanks, Marty. I suppose that my question is 3 parts:

1. Do our technical experts on this forum believe this story? (Personally, i would expect people do.)

2. Does this then mean it is reasonable to take away that such equipment also reduces noise floor on audio equipment?

3. If 2 above is YES, then the final question is can people hear the effect of such lowered noise floor?

My gut says yes to all 3 but i ask questions of the technical guys here.

Lloyd,
Great questions. I think the first two are pretty easy to answer (probably yes!) But the third question is a can of worms. I think most of us would be able to hear the sonic benefits of a device that lowers the noise floor significantly somewhere in the electronics chain. But what I can't be sure of is that while they may lower the noise floor, do they also do something else that might be pernicious, and therefore contribute negatively to the overall effect of whatever it is that we hear? That's the tough part and I don't think the results are necessarily predictable. You may just have to sort these things out for yourself one component at a time.
Marty

 

[LL21]

Lloyd,
Great questions. I think the first two are pretty easy to answer (probably yes!) But the third question is a can of worms. I think most of us would be able to hear the sonic benefits of a device that lowers the noise floor significantly somewhere in the electronics chain. But what I can't be sure of is that while they may lower the noise floor, do they also do something else that might be pernicious, and therefore contribute negatively to the overall effect of whatever it is that we hear? That's the tough part and I don't think the results are necessarily predictable. You may just have to sort these things out for yourself one component at a time.
Marty

Fair enough, Marty, fair enough...

 

[YashN]

Being an engineer and a past electronic technician, the fact Shunyata explains the science and engineering behind their products has been a big reason why I tried their gear.

Totally agree, as an Engineer as well.

 

[YashN]

Great questions. I think the first two are pretty easy to answer (probably yes!) But the third question is a can of worms. I think most of us would be able to hear the sonic benefits of a device that lowers the noise floor significantly somewhere in the electronics chain. But what I can't be sure of is that while they may lower the noise floor, do they also do something else that might be pernicious, and therefore contribute negatively to the overall effect of whatever it is that we hear? That's the tough part and I don't think the results are necessarily predictable.

I can confirm we heard both the differences between a default power cord for my SS amp and a DIY one that I made myself, as well as tremendous differences between just plugging my system by default and plugging my system through a DIY prototype AC Filter Box.

I also experimented with chassis grounding as well as the much more controversial signal 'grounding' and each of these added incremental benefits. It's the best I've heard my system play, especially when it comes to micro-details (things like lip sounds, jewellery, people breathing and moving their seats).

This strongly suggests that when we resort to getting equipment and just plugging them in available wall sockets, we are setting up noise paths and ground loops and other impedance mismatches which create noise. This noise may not be directly perceptible because people would look/hear for hiss or a lowering of noise floor or blacker backgrounds, but it can definitely be audible when you realise the amount of micro-details which are obscured in a default configuration.

Of course, my system is full of imperfections (one of which being it uses unbalanced interconnects...), so YMMV as everything is system-dependent. Your ears and your ability to hear properly are part of the system as well.

The differences in micro-detail and soundstage are obvious to us here.

 

[Alrainbow]

Aside from being a bit of an agnostic in power cables , while I do agree over size gauge , using the same phase for all audio , same grounding potential from same pint looped around . Now someone answer me this , how come many lay claim to stories of cables and as they cannot be measured by them selves I get this . But now here is something I have ever read , how come if noise goes away at the speakers has anyone ever bothered to measure the output of the amp . Same for increase slam it's seems obvious to me it should increase the voltage output as this is what moves the speakers after all right . In crease in resolution ok you got me there , but more air around the music increase in bass or mids or highs . All of this can be measured simply with a scope right . Voltage drop of power cords I agree same for speaker wire . But speaker wires have reactance , and both low inductance and capacidence .
Now I do feel interconnects this makes plenty of sense , as does USB cables . Here is another odd fact the input of any psu from our lines is extremly low in imp if it's so how can radio waves effect it . And further more the psu starts out as Ac converts to low voltage through an isolation transformer the same kind we pay. Big bucks for Ina high current one. Now this changes a bit in a switching psu . Lastly the lower voyage is then made to be DC , and diodes make noise as they go on and off . The caps and other types of filters
Clean this up . But somehow after miles or pwer transmission and lots of I jested noise a simple 3 or 5 foot power cord fixes all of this in just a few feet just before it's connected to the psu. Last part now does anyone know that our components also create noise back to the power lines. And there is An add on to most of our Inpit connectors a device to stop the noise pollution or lower it. Now after all,of this I too have expensive power cords why pride of ownership why else do we spend such crazy amounts of money on this hobby .

 

[DaveC]

I can confirm we heard both the differences between a default power cord for my SS amp and a DIY one that I made myself, as well as tremendous differences between just plugging my system by default and plugging my system through a DIY prototype AC Filter Box.

I also experimented with chassis grounding as well as the much more controversial signal 'grounding' and each of these added incremental benefits. It's the best I've heard my system play, especially when it comes to micro-details (things like lip sounds, jewellery, people breathing and moving their seats).

This strongly suggests that when we resort to getting equipment and just plugging them in available wall sockets, we are setting up noise paths and ground loops and other impedance mismatches which create noise. This noise may not be directly perceptible because people would look/hear for hiss or a lowering of noise floor or blacker backgrounds, but it can definitely be audible when you realise the amount of micro-details which are obscured in a default configuration.

Of course, my system is full of imperfections (one of which being it uses unbalanced interconnects...), so YMMV as everything is system-dependent. Your ears and your ability to hear properly are part of the system as well.

The differences in micro-detail and soundstage are obvious to us here.

Fine detail and soundstage/imaging are good ways to judge the overall quality of a system imo, and they are related. Better resolution = more convincing soundstage. If upgrades/tweaks help create a convincing 3-D, immersive soundstage it's a good indication things are headed in the right direction.

I'd also say interconnect cables are exceptionally important in preserving fine detail. If you have copper ic cables you're missing out on some detail for sure.

 

[DaveC]

Aside from being a bit of an agnostic in power cables , while I do agree over size gauge , using the same phase for all audio , same grounding potential from same pint looped around . Now someone answer me this , how come many lay claim to stories of cables and as they cannot be measured by them selves I get this . But now here is something I have ever read , how come if noise goes away at the speakers has anyone ever bothered to measure the output of the amp . Same for increase slam it's seems obvious to me it should increase the voltage output as this is what moves the speakers after all right . In crease in resolution ok you got me there , but more air around the music increase in bass or mids or highs . All of this can be measured simply with a scope right . Voltage drop of power cords I agree same for speaker wire . But speaker wires have reactance , and both low inductance and capacidence .
Now I do feel interconnects this makes plenty of sense , as does USB cables . Here is another odd fact the input of any psu from our lines is extremly low in imp if it's so how can radio waves effect it . And further more the psu starts out as Ac converts to low voltage through an isolation transformer the same kind we pay. Big bucks for Ina high current one. Now this changes a bit in a switching psu . Lastly the lower voyage is then made to be DC , and diodes make noise as they go on and off . The caps and other types of filters
Clean this up . But somehow after miles or pwer transmission and lots of I jested noise a simple 3 or 5 foot power cord fixes all of this in just a few feet just before it's connected to the psu. Last part now does anyone know that our components also create noise back to the power lines. And there is An add on to most of our Inpit connectors a device to stop the noise pollution or lower it. Now after all,of this I too have expensive power cords why pride of ownership why else do we spend such crazy amounts of money on this hobby .

I'm not sure all that can be easily measured.

The last few feet argument is a good one, but you can also look at it as the first few feet and there tends to be a lot of poor quality connections in this area... Like $.99 receptacles, cheap low-gauge power cables with molded-on plugs, questionable power distribution devices, etc. By contrast the wiring in your walls and in your service entrance are much more robust. I believe Shunyata has been able to measure these factors in terms of instantaneous current delivery and have shown that a typical molded power cable is far inferior to a good quality connector with screw-down wire clamps. The connectors in the AC power system are extremely important, as much as the wire its self, maybe moreso in some cases. In power cable wiring there is more to it than resistance as the power is AC and AC impedance is different from simple DC resistance, so even though the frequency is low for litz type designs to be used they do help quite a bit. I actually have Neotech custom make UPOCC copper litz wires just for use in my power cables and it's far better than a single solid conductor. My 14g litz wire contains about 1060 runs of 44g wire in a braided configuration. This kind of wire will also be better for grounding applications.

 

[YashN]

Edited post made a double post - odd forum glitching...

 

[YashN]

Fine detail and soundstage/imaging are good ways to judge the overall quality of a system imo, and they are related. Better resolution = more convincing soundstage. If upgrades/tweaks help create a convincing 3-D, immersive soundstage it's a good indication things are headed in the right direction.

I agree entirely, and it's especially true when the micro-details and rapidity of restitution affect the attack transients and reverb tails. The attack transients more specifically have tons of cues for timbral information as well as localisation and therefore inform about the soundstage greatly.

I'd also say interconnect cables are exceptionally important in preserving fine detail. If you have copper ic cables you're missing out on some detail for sure.

Once you understand what we should be trying to achieve in a system, with clean power and grounding, it is rather obvious that balanced interconnects is the way to go. It is one thing that is bugging me in my current system for playback despite the sound being quite good, especially now that I am listening to my Tubelab SSE in Triode mode on a dedicated audio line.

 

[Alrainbow]

Nice reply and I do very much not to be a blow hard on this topic.
So transformers do help and of one want it to really help eliminate he ground from its input or separate it from input and output. I know it's no UL compliant but it does make a improvement in him and many noises that hurt the sound.
Next another simple test who here has tried there expensive power cords on video
Something we can see is far less complex
My view is not one cord I ever tried did any kind of imrpovemt that I can see. Of course using good hospital grade outlets that have great pressure cannot hurt.
Now a product hat has helped me in every way in both audio and video
The ps audio power Regens. I use many of them
A P10 is the big one it can do amps or preamps I for one do not use it on both
When I use it on audio or video there is an obvious imrpovemt. In video it's a big imrpovemt in Clarity enough and on par with 720 to 1080 Its an amazing device
Maybe it's why I do not get any imrpovemt in using power cords. The only device I own that does imrpovemt is my msb stack bit st that price point who knows what it's doing inside

 

[DaveC]

Regen is good for extreme cases, some people find they limit dynamics when used with amps but others not so much. A friend of mine is using one in a low-power/hi-efficiency system with good results and prefers it over top of the line Shunyata. The regen should also protect your gear from surges, which most audiophile conditioners do without entirely.

I've had a few customers tell me my power cables improve video, but my 58" Panasonic plasma has a very deep IEC socket that only the stock power cable can make a connection with.

I'd consider using Furutech receptacles instead of hospital grade... while the grip with HG receptacles is reassuring they also scratch right through the plating on AC plugs. The Furutech GTX receptacles are expensive but well worth it imo.

 

[Alrainbow]

Thanks for posting they are some kind of audio grade outlets though but they also have the green dot as I am a lisc electrician I recognized the symbol

 

[Alrainbow]

As for the Regens I did try them both ways.
All working is 8 gauge hot and neutral paired to same phase and mono grains loop of 6 gauge for all 5 circuits on 50 amp single pope breakers a single duplex for each Circuit.

 

[BlueFox]

I've had a few customers tell me my power cables improve video.....

I cut the hard wired power cord on my Hitachi 57" rear projector off close to the socket where it connected to the circuit board. I then spliced in an IEC socket and connected a Shunyata Zitron Cobra power cable. The colors are more vibrant, and picture detail and focus was clearer. It was a good tweak.

 

[YashN]

I cut the hard wired power cord on my Hitachi 57" rear projector off close to the socket where it connected to the circuit board. I then spliced in an IEC socket and connected a Shunyata Zitron Cobra power cable. The colors are more vibrant, and picture detail and focus was clearer. It was a good tweak.

I sometimes use my iMac display routed from the Mac to the HDTV via DisplayPort-to-HDMI.

When I tried my own AF Filter Box and plugged my computer in it (but not the TV, hadn't though of that at all), the image became clearer (the fonts were more legible). This was unexpected but fun to observe.

Ideally, I should re-do all my power cords for the video side of my equipment too.

 

[RayDunzl]

How do Power Cords perform all this good stuff when they (at least, the hot and neutral leads) spend most of their time isolated from the equipment circuitry via rectifier diodes in the non-conducting state?

 

[witchdoctor]

Your a brave man Blue Fox, I would be so worried about getting zapped splicing a power cord

 

[witchdoctor]

How do Power Cords perform all this good stuff when they (at least, the hot and neutral leads) spend most of their time isolated from the equipment circuitry via rectifier diodes in the non-conducting state?

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html