Power Conditioning Advice

[dminches]

from James Tanner:

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.

A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.

Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house. The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.

A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).


Not sure how this relates to the disagreement about what the Torus is capable of doing.

 

[microstrip]

As far as I could see Torus addresses mainly mains noise and harmonic rejection - they have a patented technique, using a third wiring in the transformer to absorb any thing that is not 60 Hz. Equitech focus on balanced output - that can have advantages if you have a complex system, with many pieces of equipment or having some suspicious mains filters, as in this case leakage to ground can become significant.

 

[dminches]

As far as I could see Torus addresses mainly mains noise and harmonic rejection - they have a patented technique, using a third wiring in the transformer to absorb any thing that is not 60 Hz. Equitech focus on balanced output - that can have advantages if you have a complex system, with many pieces of equipment or having some suspicious mains filters, as in this case leakage to ground can become significant.

Thanks. Equi=tech claims that with the use of their product ground loops and associated hums are eliminated. That doesn’t seem to be what Mike experienced with the Lamms but that could have nothing to do with the Equi=tech unit.

 

[Folsom]

Thanks. Equi=tech claims that with the use of their product ground loops and associated hums are eliminated. That doesn’t seem to be what Mike experienced with the Lamms but that could have nothing to do with the Equi=tech unit.

It wasn't the Equi=tech.

 

[dminches]

It wasn't the Equi=tech.

As I said, I have no clue but equi=tech is pretty bold in saying that ground hum is a thing of the past.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks. Equi=tech claims that with the use of their product ground loops and associated hums are eliminated. That doesn’t seem to be what Mike experienced with the Lamms but that could have nothing to do with the Equi=tech unit.

Ground loops are not eliminated by Equi=tech - however in some conditions leakage to ground can be reduced and the hum resulting from ground loops can be reduced.

 

[dminches]

Ground loops are not eliminated by Equi=tech - however in some conditions leakage to ground can be reduced and the hum resulting from ground loops can be reduced.

From their website “ When balanced power is applied, ground loops and hum problems, even subtle ac noise coloration becomes a thing of the past. The difference can be astonishing”

 

[ddk]

in my case I have 2 separate services to my barn (from my main panel in my house garage) 100 feet away from my house. one is a 100 amp service to a panel (without separate ground rod) in the barn for lights, HVAC and various outlets. the other is a 70amp service to my Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel (with a separate ground rod) for my 2 channel system.

Do you have to strap the ground rod to the main house ground in WA Mike or you can have two completely separate grounds feeding the same structure?

david

 

[Pb Blimp]

Paul,

While no one that is educated on the subject would think your ideas about the speed of current to recharge capacitors... Let me ask you as if anything you said were true... if this ability to charge capacitors is better, what about the other 80% of the time when the capacitors are not being charged but the music can be playing just as demandingly?

"So why can you not understand that making access to recharging current does not further improve the amps ability to meet high dynamic requirements in those same passages as they continue beyond the first draw down?"

It isn't me whom needs to understand, because this isn't happening.

from James Tanner:

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.

A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.

Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house. The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.

A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).


Not sure how this relates to the disagreement about what the Torus is capable of doing.

Wow, Jame's last paragraph sounds familiar.

So I guess he and I have a lot in common. We are uneducated guys that imagine lots of stuff thats not true and then tell other people stuff thats not true. Folsom, so glad to have you around to straighten us out. I always thought Bryston stuff sounded great but it must have been another example of my imagination acting up cuz its unlikely an uneducated person like James could make something sound good.

 

[BlueFox]

I wonder how the OP is taking all this ‘advice’.

 

[ddk]

Honestly, looking at the specs and their products there seems to be a certain amount of hype peddled here. Most of the what they allude to as proprietary is the basic stuff you find in a UPS.

• High Instantaneous Current Capability

What are they exactly claiming here? Folsom is right they're not doing any storage, it's a slogan. Any isolation transformer of adequate size for your system will pass through enough current to meet the system's demands and smaller less than adequate ones will current limit. That's why they have different sized transformers.

Sonically it's a personal choice and your electronics design, if OTL, and the built in AC isolation filters play a role too along with the way you wire up the transformer to your system. Besides marketing it to audiophiles I seriously don't see anything here different from better commercial ones.

david

from James Tanner:

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.

A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.

Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house. The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.

A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).


Not sure how this relates to the disagreement about what the Torus is capable of doing.

 

[Folsom]

from James Tanner:

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.

A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.

Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house. The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.

A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).


Not sure how this relates to the disagreement about what the Torus is capable of doing.

That is a huge can of worms.

For the Torus to store energy that can be used to keep the voltage up, it has to convert to higher voltage than 120v. That automatically means less current is available compared to the feeding wire. I don't think this is a bad thing, I'm just explaining that while current is present, these are all actions of voltage that have nothing to do with "speed of current" nonsense. You're trading a sharper higher current for a more spread out lower one. In order to do so you have less peak voltage, which means the transformer has to transform to a higher voltage to begin with to feed the inductor that will release energy in order to maintain the AC voltage.

The entire intention is keeping voltage up. It actually equals a small decrease in peak current. Where it use to be say 20% of the cycle charged capacitors, the Torus might bump that to 21% or 25%... Honestly we don't know, but for marketing reasons they will brag about the biggest number you can imagine but the reality won't be an impressive number despite the impressive sound.


What's the benefit? It'll make the power supply appear slightly more stiff for voltage. I find no problem with doing what they're doing, other than it isn't an act of increasing "current speed", and it doesn't increase available current. But what you're doing is softening the (PSU) noise while maintaining voltage.

I like Torus thus far, but I'm not going to condone things that are not true. Personally Torus > Equi=tech. The Equi-tech's are more beneficial for certain industry needs than audiophile.

 

[Folsom]

Wow, James last paragraph sounds familiar.

So I guess he and I have a lot in common. We are uneducated guys that imagine lots of stuff thats not true and then tell other people stuff thats not true. Folsom, so glad to have you around to straighten us out. I always thought Bryston stuff sounded great but it must have been another example of my imagination acting up cuz its unlikely an uneducated person like James could make something sound good.

James doesn't mention anything about speed. He is talking about increasing charging times. You have a hammer and a mongoose that you think are both hammers. I cannot find any fault in what James has written, but yours is still nonsense. At no point have you typed anything related to increasing charging time by stretching the peak - and much less about using inductance at higher voltages to store energy. You've only talked about untrue current ideas.

Capacitors in a power supply charge and discharge with the cycle, even if you flatten the peak a little. So, again, you aren't doing anything outside of the slightly flattened peak - nothing like having a reservoir on tap.

BTW I've heard Toruses in stereos before, and some of those stereos sound pretty good

 

[dminches]

Here is one additional post from James comparing balanced power on the output (Equi=tech) vs. unbalanced:

Torus Power line conditions can operate on a power line input feed of 120 Volt (single phase) or 240 Volt (dual phase). If the 240 Volt version is used then the Torus Powerline Conditioner is BALANCED at the INPUT. The OUTPUT is not balanced and runs Single Phase 120 Volts.

The advantage of operating a Balanced Input or a Balanced Output is noise reduction as a result of the balanced line common mode noise rejection. Given Plitron's proprietary technologies --- "NBT", "Low-Noise" and "Low Imin" --- Torus Power units have the capability to reduce noise effectively on the output without the need to use Balanced 60V-60V output terminals.

The problem with using Balanced 60/120V. 1-phase AC output on a Consumer Powerline Conditioner are the mandatory requirements demanded by the 2005 USA National Electrical Code - Article 647.

The Balanced 60/120 Volt 1-phase AC mandatory installation requirements are:


1. The system is installed only in commercial or industrial occupancies.

2. All junction box covers shall be clearly marked to indicate the distribution panel and the system voltage.

3. Restricted to areas under close qualified supervision.

Where receptacles are used as a means of connecting equipment, the following conditions shall be met:

1. All 15 ampere and 20 ampere receptacles shall be GFCI protected.

2. All outlet strips, adapters, receptacle covers and faceplates shall be marked with the following words or equivalent:

WARNING - TECHNICAL POWER
Do not connect to lighting equipment.
For electronic equipment use only.
60/120 V. 1-phase AC
GFCI protected.


In conclusion if a Torus Powerline Conditioner is used (either 120V Single Phase or 240V Balanced) in a Consumer installation the advantages are:

1. There is no need for use of GFCI protected receptacles.

2. Can be installed in residential as well as commercial and industrial
occupancies.

3. Operation of the unit does not require close supervision by qualified
personnel.

4. No warning labels required

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you have to strap the ground rod to the main house ground in WA Mike or you can have two completely separate grounds feeding the same structure?

david

don't know the code for an additional ground for the same structure. only know that since I have a separate structure another ground is allowed 'to' code in WA.

 

[microstrip]

Honestly, looking at the specs and their products there seems to be a certain amount of hype peddled here. Most of the what they allude to as proprietary is the basic stuff you find in a UPS.

• High Instantaneous Current Capability

What are they exactly claiming here?(...)

Probably addressing the response of the transformer when charged with a pulsed load - see for example the articles of Shunyata on this subject. And it is a technique used to diagnose manufacturing or transportation induced problems in power transformers. Some people spent a few years studying power transformers, writing thesis on them. Perhaps they know a little more on the subject than us. As I have often said, as we do not have any firm correlation between subjective sound quality and objective measurements of mains parameters, manufacturer literature tells us very little and, yes, it is mostly used as marketing. When we opened a call for an isolation transformer for a computer center the specifications were stated by the computer supplier, not by the users.

I find curious that some audiophiles are prepared to accept that the materials used in the core of the power transformers of their equipment matter to sound quality and consider that an isolation transform is an ideal device and all of them should sound the same ...

Some audio equipment manufacturers are against any form of transformer isolation or power conditioning - surely considering that our mains have a minimal quality. DCS is one of them, it is clearly written in the manuals.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Some audio equipment manufacturers are against any form of transformer isolation or power conditioning - surely considering that our mains have a minimal quality. DCS is one of them, it is clearly written in the manuals.

I have conversed with a few of the manufacturers who are naysayers in this regard and in my experience even the naysayers understand the benefits of isolation, voltage regulation and even technology like NBT; their recommendation to go straight to the wall in this regard, has exclusively been limited to concern about doing more harm than good because of power limitation resulting from transformer saturation. When I have explained the design to include a protocol similar to my post below they completely change their tune. They certainly understand benefit of this the technology but feel most just do it wrong. After all, whats behind the mains? A transformer; its just a big one.

Read the technology section of the Torus web site to understand this best. It depends on the unit. The important thing IMO (after the technology used) is sizing the transformer with significant available instantaneous current which involves using a multiple (4 or 5 times) of the "Rated Current" required by system components. Many people use the Rated Current and squash dynamics. If you are indeed not going to run your amps then a non-wall mounted unit should work well.

Ok, this is the point where Folsom pretty much makes the same point I just made but says I am wrong because I said it wrong at calls me untruthful. Ready, set , go............

 

[Folsom]

I highly recommend headroom. But the Torus tech makes it a hair less necessary. It probably isn't enough to change your recommendation of 4x to anything less. But you are right that I will point out the "instantaneous" word has no purpose to this recommendation. The reason you oversize is so the transformer doesn't saturate and drop the voltage greatly - every time a huge demand comes along. Too much current through a transformer is what causes the big drop. So you can have a transformer rated at 75A pull through hundreds of amperes but it won't be at 120v - and hopefully trip the breaker before anything melts.

 

[Dentdog]

Had a wall unit from EquiTech installed Friday. I decided to leave my BPT 3.5 Sig plus powering my front end in service, now plugged into one of the dedicated lines powered by the EquiTech unit, piggybacked if you will. The amps are and subwoofer amps are now supplied by the other dedicated lines from the EquiTech. Whatever technical info I possess has been garnered from this forum and other audio forums with a smattering of college physics. I will say the results are very encouraging across the board.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Had a wall unit from EquiTech installed Friday. I decided to leave my BPT 3.5 Sig plus powering my front end in service, now plugged into one of the dedicated lines powered by the EquiTech unit, piggybacked if you will. The amps are and subwoofer amps are now supplied by the other dedicated lines from the EquiTech. Whatever technical info I possess has been garnered from this forum and other audio forums with a smattering of college physics. I will say the results are very encouraging across the board.

congrats Dentdog, welcome to the Equi=tech Wall Panel club!!!

nice to hear about your positive first impressions. curious whether you have 'dirty' outlets in your room to do a quick compare?