power conditioner

[Amir]

Amir, are you planning to try a battery/inverter?

I would love to see someone develop a purpose built Inverter for Audio. The best, low thd, off the shelf inverter may be the Exeltech (which I am using). I’m interested to find someone to possibly optimize an Exeltech for audio sound quality: wiring, capacitors…

I’m already filtering it with the Torus rm20 and OnFilter (emi).

Yes my plan is using parallel victron energy inverter 5000 + battery in the future.

Kevin (designer of Living Voice horn Vox Olympian) uses Victron inverter 3000 + large battery bank.

Victron inverters use isolation transformer after igbt output but most modern UPS systems removed isolation transformer.

Ultimately I guess Victron inverters will never solve my problem, but we are addicted to spending our money on audio entertainment.

 

[Folsom]

ABB high quality UPS is around 4k euro

I think there is no way to get good sound from wall AC even if you buy all ac filters and conditioners

The only way is off grid inverter designed for audio

I strongly disagree. At the price I can tell you those inverters are not going to be all that special. Things like Equi=tech would most certainly out shine them in reduced noise. However if they sound right to you then that is fine. Noise may not even be what you are trying to improve. For reference I would assume at the $4k price tag I wouldn't be able to assemble a unit with enough iron to mitigate noise at a level I'd expect for a high end system.

The power from the wall travels over lines at very high voltages and gets reduced to house level, which reduces picked up noise the same fold. The problems come from within the house mainly, and to some effect possibly neighbors depending on many factors. Most products are simply shaping the sound.

 

[TechnicalPie]

No, Purepower 3000 will decrease 20% of dynamics if you use Gryphon 300.

I think purepower is Just good for tube systems if you prefer to get 100% dynamics

I've been experiencing constant power outages in my house lately. Sometimes the power goes out completely for a few seconds. So, I'm also considering using the Eaton 9130 3000/2700 UPS. Do you think it might be a better option for the Gryphon Diablo 300?

 

[Kingrex]

I've been experiencing constant power outages in my house lately. Sometimes the power goes out completely for a few seconds. So, I'm also considering using the Eaton 9130 3000/2700 UPS. Do you think it might be a better option for the Gryphon Diablo 300?

No. UPS have a lag of 10ms and some servers don't like it. And you will hear it.

Ultimately I guess Victron inverters will never solve my problem, but we are addicted to spending our money on audio entertainment.

Why would you say that? I can put 200 Amps of power at your rack with inverters. I would rather put 100 amps and a Torus 10kva isolation transformer. That's 90 Amps at the rack. I can power a server farm for Gates if needed with batteries and inverters. You think your stereo requires more power?

 

[TechnicalPie]

No. UPS have a lag of 10ms and some servers don't like it. And you will hear it.

But a 10ms delay only applies when the power goes out completely. That's an extreme situation. During normal operation, there's no delay.

 

[Amir]

I strongly disagree. At the price I can tell you those inverters are not going to be all that special. Things like Equi=tech would most certainly out shine them in reduced noise. However if they sound right to you then that is fine. Noise may not even be what you are trying to improve. For reference I would assume at the $4k price tag I wouldn't be able to assemble a unit with enough iron to mitigate noise at a level I'd expect for a high end system.

The power from the wall travels over lines at very high voltages and gets reduced to house level, which reduces picked up noise the same fold. The problems come from within the house mainly, and to some effect possibly neighbors depending on many factors. Most products are simply shaping the sound.

Balanced Isolation transformers are good for most audio systems if the performance is not ultimate. For ultimate performance isolation tranaformers have some limits:
- bass is not fully extended and solid
- the ac polarity will not be correct
- dynamics are not perfect

 

[Amir]

I've been experiencing constant power outages in my house lately. Sometimes the power goes out completely for a few seconds. So, I'm also considering using the Eaton 9130 3000/2700 UPS. Do you think it might be a better option for the Gryphon Diablo 300?

I think the UPS for Diablo 300 should be over 10kVA

You can buy Eaton and check but I guess it’s power is not enough.

FM Acoustics article is very good about needed current of power amplifiers, FM believes UPS or Inverter or Wall AC should be linear around 60A current.

 

[Amir]

Why would you say that? I can put 200 Amps of power at your rack with inverters. I would rather put 100 amps and a Torus 10kva isolation transformer. That's 90 Amps at the rack. I can power a server farm for Gates if needed with batteries and inverters. You think your stereo requires more power?

Yes, paralleling 6 victron inverters 5000 give me 18000w rms power but I am sure the sound will not be perfect. audio is far more complex than my theories.

I wish ASR designer Friedrich Schaefer design an audio grade inverter for this industry. He can do that.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Balanced Isolation transformers are good for most audio systems if the performance is not ultimate. For ultimate performance isolation tranaformers have some limits:
- bass is not fully extended and solid
- the ac polarity will not be correct
- dynamics are not perfect

I think these generalizations are a little irresponsible.

With regard to isolation transformers and balanced power devices and PS Audio regenerators and grounding boxes and line conditioners and all such power devices I think the only thing that can be said with certainty is that such devices may change (in my experience they often do change) the sound of one's stereo system. The question is up to each individual audiophile to decide if that change, on a net basis, helps the audiophile achieve his/her personal sonic objectives, or not.

 

[Kingrex]

I think these generalizations are a little irresponsible.

With regard to isolation transformers and balanced power devices and PS Audio regenerators and grounding boxes and line conditioners and all such power devices I think the only thing that can be said with certainty is that such devices may change (in my experience they often do change) the sound of one's stereo system. The question is up to each individual audiophile to decide if that change, on a net basis, helps the audiophile achieve his/her personal sonic objectives, or not.

Very well stated Ron. Thank you.

I would also add, all power conditioners, and especially isolation transformers need to be connected optimally. Not just bare NEC compliant. There is Code compliant and there is better and best. You will get the highest performance from any power conditioner when you attach them Best.

 

[TooCool4]

No. UPS have a lag of 10ms and some servers don't like it. And you will hear it.

This is not true, if you use a double conversion online UPS. Zero transfer time as it’s always on, yes it’s more wasteful / expensive to run.

 

[wil]

Yes, paralleling 6 victron inverters 5000 give me 18000w rms power but I am sure the sound will not be perfect. audio is far more complex than my theories.

I wish ASR designer Friedrich Schaefer design an audio grade inverter for this industry. He can do that.

Someone needs to step up and do it. A talented diy guy could improve existing inverters.

 

[John T]

Someone needs to step up and do it. A talented diy guy could improve existing inverters.

I suspect Rex would be the best one to accomplish this...

 

[Kingrex]

But a 10ms delay only applies when the power goes out completely. That's an extreme situation. During normal operation, there's no delay.

My real point is Eaton makes a very good UPS. And they do switch pretty fast. Not always fast enough, but they are very good.
When you have a UPS, you have routed your branch wires into an enclosure that has contactors and power supplies inside. Your adding a lot of breaks in the power feed. Connections points. And most of these devices have a lot of aluminum lugs. Not copper. Its all noise your injecting.

I personally, if seeking the highest performance would go 1 or 2 routes.
One is to use something like a Torus AVR transformer. If the power sags or surges, the transformer will adjust the taps internally and keep the voltage stable at 120 or 230. Depends on what country your in. If the power drops out, the transformer will shut off. It won't come back on until you tell it to. Or, you can program it to turn back on with a controlled sequence. Like the preamps and servers first, then the amps. It can also be told to wait some amount of time to restart so you don't motorboat the equipment.
The other options is a pure battery/Inverter supply. Your always on the battery so there is 0 relation to the utility power. Utility can do what it wants and your stereo will never know. You need to manage the charger. You will hear it when playing music. You have to turn it off or unplug it when playing. Then turn it back on when done. You can purchase a very expensive box like a Stromtank. You could easily spend $100K. Or you can assemble the parts yourself. Issue is understanding how to do it safely and correctly. It will take hands on work to built up the cabling. And you need an isolation transformer. All the people that are doing battery/Inverter say a Isolation transformer is the most natural sounding filter to follow it. You need to figure that into the cost. Figure $4200 plus shipping of $350 retail price for a RM20. Pretty much the perfect device to follow and Exeltech or Victron inverter.
If you went lager, like a 100A inverter and rack mount storage, you need an electrician with a Solar background that has done battery storage systems in the past. Its a very specific installation and a electrician that does not do if for a living will screw it up.

 

[Kingrex]

Someone needs to step up and do it. A talented diy guy could improve existing inverters.

First there was Pure Power. Now there is Stromtank. Or there is something like you have that is not visibly attractive in the room, but highly functional.

Per my other post, a larger system requires an electrician that is familiar with battery storage and Inverter technology and installations. Its complex. Its not legal to just place a system in a house. The fire department has to know its there and be able to shut it off remotely. And it can't be allowed to backfeed into the utility if there is a power outage.

 

[John T]

My real point is Eaton makes a very good UPS. And they do switch pretty fast. Not always fast enough, but they are very good.
When you have a UPS, you have routed your branch wires into an enclosure that has contactors and power supplies inside. Your adding a lot of breaks in the power feed. Connections points. And most of these devices have a lot of aluminum lugs. Not copper. Its all noise your injecting.

I personally, if seeking the highest performance would go 1 or 2 routes.
One is to use something like a Torus AVR transformer. If the power sags or surges, the transformer will adjust the taps internally and keep the voltage stable at 120 or 230. Depends on what country your in. If the power drops out, the transformer will shut off. It won't come back on until you tell it to. Or, you can program it to turn back on with a controlled sequence. Like the preamps and servers first, then the amps. It can also be told to wait some amount of time to restart so you don't motorboat the equipment.
The other options is a pure battery/Inverter supply. Your always on the battery so there is 0 relation to the utility power. Utility can do what it wants and your stereo will never know. You need to manage the charger. You will hear it when playing music. You have to turn it off or unplug it when playing. Then turn it back on when done. You can purchase a very expensive box like a Stromtank. You could easily spend $100K. Or you can assemble the parts yourself. Issue is understanding how to do it safely and correctly. It will take hands on work to built up the cabling. And you need an isolation transformer. All the people that are doing battery/Inverter say a Isolation transformer is the most natural sounding filter to follow it. You need to figure that into the cost. Figure $4200 plus shipping of $350 retail price for a RM20. Pretty much the perfect device to follow and Exeltech or Victron inverter.
If you went lager, like a 100A inverter and rack mount storage, you need an electrician with a Solar background that has done battery storage systems in the past. Its a very specific installation and a electrician that does not do if for a living will screw it up.

This may be a little off from the topic at hand but, if someone had a WM100, couldn't they come off of that to a Torus AVR E SMSS for the front end gear. Anything too big such as amps, leave on the WM100?