Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

[opus112]

I deliberately chose not to use the word "belief" because I think it immediately puts people in opposing camps. It implies at a dogmatism on both sides, that I'm hoping to avoid.

Fair enough, feel free to substitute 'view' in place of 'belief' in what I wrote.

If it makes it easier though I'm happy to reword the question something like this:
"Each individual's experience has led them to believe that power cables either do or do not make a difference. Is there anything that you could imagine experiencing that would lead you to change your own belief "

That's true for many but not all 'non cable sound' people. Some form the view in absence of experience, because there are no measurements and no mechanisms known to them by which cables can sound different. Put another way they know there can be no difference so there's no need for them to do that particular experiment.

 

[Whatmore]

Fair enough, feel free to substitute 'view' in place of 'belief' in what I wrote.



That's true for many but not all 'non cable sound' people. Some form the view in absence of experience, because there are no measurements and no mechanisms known to them by which cables can sound different. Put another way they know there can be no difference so there's no need for them to do that particular experiment.

I guess we should leave it to "them" to comment on that, shouldn't we?

 

[Rodney Gold]

My personal position is that playing with power cables is a very low man on the totem pole when it comes to tweaking that really matters and works .. like room acoustics , room correction and so forth.
I have messed with and own some fancier than stock PC's and cannot say with any certainty if they improve anything. I do however feed the room with a pure sine wave inverter using battery power .. so my electricity supply is very well conditioned..maybe thats why I don't hear any PC based improvements

 

[Diapason]

I hold the same view, Rodney, more or less. I've tried a few different PCs on a few different components at home, sighted, and I haven't been able to identify a difference. This is with my system, my ears, my room, so I'll cheerfully admit that any or all of those could be of insufficient quality to identify real differences when they're there. The scientist in me isn't surprised by this finding, but the audiophile in me continues to live in hope of magic. The bottom line is that, as things stand, I'd sooner spend my money elsewhere as I think I can find more bang for the buck.

To change my view would be relatively "easy": I'd need to hear a repeatable difference that's worthwhile to me, over long-term listening. I'm certainly not ruling that out, but I'd be surprised.

 

[twitch]

In the spirit of playing nicely, perhaps you could share what it would take for you to change your obviously very passionate viewpoint

measurable data, DBT (done correctly), full disclosure of all components within those ridiculously priced PC's so as to place a real value on the product

To be clear, I'm not asking anyone to change their opinion

opinions are nice, I prefer those that can be objectively backed up with facts

No im not asking them if they've had an experience that would change their view.

Im asking what experience they would need to have that would change their view. Y

see the above ...........

 

[microstrip]

My personal position is that playing with power cables is a very low man on the totem pole when it comes to tweaking that really matters and works .. like room acoustics , room correction and so forth.
I have messed with and own some fancier than stock PC's and cannot say with any certainty if they improve anything. I do however feed the room with a pure sine wave inverter using battery power .. so my electricity supply is very well conditioned..maybe thats why I don't hear any PC based improvements

We have different experiences with the Devialet's. Even using the PS Audio P10 power conditioner, that regenerates the mains, the 220Pro sounds different using an ultra cheap but decent PC, a van den Hul Mainstream PC or its own PC, that I think it is manufactured by Audioquest.

Even when using the best mains we can not forget that the power cables must deal with the noise created by the power supply of the equipment it powers.

 

[thedudeabides]

What would make me change my mind that some power cords "can" make a difference? 1) a lobotomy 2) acute loss of hearing

Fully agree.

This is like trying to prove a false positive.

With all due respect to the OP, this is a very silly thread.

 

[thedudeabides]

Lol...ok ,have you always had this view or has it changed from experience or knowledge?

Well said RogerD.

Unfortunate that the OP doesn't seem to understand how obtuse and circular this thread is.

I'll play. Being hit by lightning. A true sign from "above".

 

[amirm]

With all due respect to the OP, this is a very silly thread.

It is actually best thread of this kind. It is asking you for a moment to consider the other side to be right and the consider how you would validate that they are right. And you do so with your own sensibility, not theirs.

 

[thedudeabides]

Having recently experienced switching to Shunyata Research PC's over the past two months and doing various switching back and forth with the same result (positive, audible for the better) and given the "science" that supports the fact that SR products are effective in reducing AC "noise" (see LL21 post above), it would be impossible for me to validate and / or agree with the position that PC's do not make a difference.

Hope that helps explain.

And I have no desire and will not respond to the typical "expectation bias" argument made by the "O" crowd.

Yes, the thread is silly and has been discussed ad infinitum.

 

[twitch]

And I have no desire and will not respond to the typical "expectation bias" argument made by the "O" crowd.

Yes, the thread is silly and has been discussed ad infinitum.

Gordon, you're just no fun at all !!

 

[amirm]

Having recently experienced switching to Shunyata Research PC's over the past two months and doing various switching back and forth with the same result (positive, audible for the better) and given the "science" that supports the fact that SR products are effective in reducing AC "noise" (see LL21 post above), it would be impossible for me to validate and / or agree with the position that PC's do not make a difference.

Hope that helps explain.

And I have no desire and will not respond to the typical "expectation bias" argument made by the "O" crowd.

Yes, the thread is silly and has been discussed ad infinitum.

So if I had some randomly swap your power cables with ordinary ones a dozen times over a month period and you never noticed any of those changes, you would still believe in what you say above?

 

[RogerD]

Can you hear or in your minds eye a difference in the size or quality of the sound stage of different PC's?

So if I had some randomly swap your power cables with ordinary ones a dozen times over a month period and you never noticed any of those changes, you would still believe in what you say above?

Amir, Do you notice a difference in the sound stage?

 

[amirm]

Can you hear or in your minds eye a difference in the size or quality of the sound stage of different PC's?

In my mind's eye I am 30 years younger until I look in the mirror and realize I am not .

Amir, Do you notice a difference in the sound stage?

Oh, all the time. And better detail, more air around the instruments, more analog like, etc. Problem is, I hear all of those improvements just the same when I have made no hardware changes and I am just listening more intently! The mirror unfortunately brings me back to reality of improper perception/evaluation.

 

[RogerD]

In my mind's eye I am 30 years younger until I look in the mirror and realize I am not .


Oh, all the time. And better detail, more air around the instruments, more analog like, etc. Problem is, I hear all of those improvements just the same when I have made no hardware changes and I am just listening more intently! The mirror unfortunately brings me back to reality of improper perception/evaluation.

Exactly and the reason is the PC's have different shield current induced noise levels and so the current is less interfered by magnetic interference,which increases resolution and efficiency in speaker dispersion qualities. Transformers love clean power.

 

[thedudeabides]

So if I had some randomly swap your power cables with ordinary ones a dozen times over a month period and you never noticed any of those changes, you would still believe in what you say above?

False positive. Good try.

If you want to come visit Jackson, WY, please do and we can try the above.

Silly thread.

 

[Steve Williams]

False positive. Good try.

If you want to come visit Jackson, WY, please do and we can try the above.

Silly thread.

+1

It's too bad he can't hear a difference. But hey we are all crazy and he is the only sane one.

 

[microstrip]

We could have exactly the same thread on any item where we do not have objective measurements that correlate with sound quality - amplifiers, preamplifiers, digital sources or other types of cables. I have no objective reason to believe that an Audio Research REF40 sounds different from a D'Agostino preamplfier - both measure excellently in classical parameters (a nice name for the Stereophile measurements, the only ones we have easy access), the measured problems or differences are much bellow the accepted thresholds of audibility. However I think that no one in WBF will object to the fact that they sound different and will not remember opening a thread asking what is needed to change this view.

IMHO most people react emotionally to cable debates because of the cost, nothing else. Unless you listen to such cables in an adequate system - and this means matched in equipment quality and unfortunately most of the time, also in price - you can not understand why they are needed. Along many years I have experienced the ultra systems and noticed how great and extreme a properly tuned system, assembled with no limitations in budget, can sound. Perhaps if it was not this experience, I would also be in the other side of the bridge.

 

[Steve Williams]

IMHO most people react emotionally to cable debates because of the cost, nothing else. Unless you listen to such cables in an adequate system - and this means matched in equipment quality and unfortunately most of the time, also in price - you can not understand why they are needed. Along many years I have experienced the ultra systems and noticed how great and extreme a properly tuned system, assembled with no limitations in budget, can sound. Perhaps if it was not this experience, I would also be in the other side of the bridge

Bolded is mine. I agree.

over the past 4 months I have had occasion to swap in and out of my system a pair of Master Built Ultra PC's for my amps.I feel it is imperative when one does such a test that you do an A-B-A test to know exactly what you gained and lost

For my ears the difference in clarity and resolution with subsequent expansion of the sound stage was irrefutable. There were songs that I listened to with my existing cables and then with the MB PC's that was so convincing. I was hearing words to songs that I have never heard before. It was astonishingly quiet with such clarity that there was no doubt. When I switched back to my previous cables there was a collapse of the sound stage with now a haze over the music such that it was once again difficult to hear all of the words in the songs with such clarity. The noise and hash was gone

Best way I could describe my experience was going from a picture that was 1080P and very decent but when the new cables were inserted the picture was suddenly 4K which makes going back to the old cable virtually impossible

 

[ddk]

+1. Don't forget tubes, they measure the same but sound completely different from brand to brand and even NOS and current productions of the same brand sonic qualities vary!

We could have exactly the same thread on any item where we do not have objective measurements that correlate with sound quality - amplifiers, preamplifiers, digital sources or other types of cables. I have no objective reason to believe that an Audio Research REF40 sounds different from a D'Agostino preamplfier - both measure excellently in classical parameters (a nice name for the Stereophile measurements, the only ones we have easy access), the measured problems or differences are much bellow the accepted thresholds of audibility. However I think that no one in WBF will object to the fact that they sound different and will not remember opening a thread asking what is needed to change this view.

IMHO most people react emotionally to cable debates because of the cost, nothing else. Unless you listen to such cables in an adequate system - and this means matched in equipment quality and unfortunately most of the time, also in price - you can not understand why they are needed. Along many years I have experienced the ultra systems and noticed how great and extreme a properly tuned system, assembled with no limitations in budget, can sound. Perhaps if it was not this experience, I would also be in the other side of the bridge.

david