Planar vs Horn

[Lampie519]

In my experience, planars (ESL) from ceiling to ground and direct driven, will give you low end (bass) with extreem realism (dynamics) and detail (the exception of the rule).
Horns can do magic here as well but this is not my field of expertise.

 

[caesar]

Thanks so much to everyone for all the comments. As always, I learn a lot with you.

@caesar you are my man!!! Buying both is the best solution and I will also have the best of both worlds or technologies!!! The only problem is money... (hahaha). If I could buy both, surely I would not be around here asking people which one to choose (hahaha).

Seriously, that’s what this is about. Trying to get the best option because I can’t buy both. I must remind you that I will also have to buy the rest of the equipment after deciding the speakers...

There are “classical“ problems associated with this two technologies (nothing is perfect):

It is said that horn speakers have a “nasal sound“ (in other words, the main differenciating characteristic of this technology could be, curiously, a “problem”). Bass also, many times, is not as powerful or deep as it needed and in most cases they are recommended independent subs. Dynamism seems to be the greatest virtue of horns. Jazz is a classical example of music that goes really well with horns.

Electrostatic, magneplanar or ribbon speakers, are incredible on the holographic experience but they have two big problems: they are not the most dynamics and the bass is (in general) poor. It is also said that this type of speakers have not a long durability (in opposition to box speakers for example) and also it´s a technology more likely to have issues and needs reparations more frequently. Any opinion?? If I could avoid any maintenance or at least that the manteinance or the “degradation” be minimum (I‘m not going to have easy access to technical assitance near home ) is a “plus“ that I have to take into account. Vocals seems the perfect music for panels.

I’m not going to lie you. Until very recently, panels were not an option to me. But a few days ago, I discovered Alsyvox ribbon-plannar speakers... Alsyvox speakers are advertised on their web with these qualities: “The transparency and imaging of the best planar speakers; The dynamics and low distortion of the best big horns; The tonal balance of the best monitors; The efficiency you need to use almost any amplifier; The authoritative bass of a big cone woofer”. That‘s a lot!!! If everything is true they are without doubt the best speakers on the market!!! (hahaha). After reading that my first thought was: “marketing stuff of the high-end...”. So I decide to investigate a little. And yes, @adyc Isaw the videos of Rapshody on youtube and a I also exchange some emails with him, and the comments, for his part, were really good and favorable. Dynamism and bass were really great. One of his first loudspeakers choices/recommendation right now... The only problem, in the comparison I’m proposing, is that Rapshody never heard any of the Classic Audio Loudspeakers.

Are the Alsyvox something special on the panels designs?? People is saying that they are far better than Maggies... That’s a lot... But most important, are the Alsyvox speakers worthy?? They are really expensive and as @Lampie519 said traditionlly “plannars are more affordable”. Anything justify on the Alsyvox such price???

Yesterday, I return to heard som recordings of the Rockport Cygnus... Good animals.... I’m really lost.... Hahaha

Thanks to everyone

Hahaha. If you have hesitations about prior experiences with horns, yes, Alsyvox are awesome. I am a tube guy and I have heard them at audio shows with Solid State, and they blew everything away by a country mile...Are they better than soundlabs with Atmasphere? I don't know. But I ran into a couple of guys who heard Alsyvox with moderately powered Jadis amps. These guys are music lovers before they audiophiles, meaning that they don't partake in the audiophile culture and listen to real music, not audiophile music. These are my kind of guys, and they told me that the Alsyvox with Jadis is as good as this hobby can get.

But if it were me, I'd definitely hear them . especially since you are in Spain... someone must have a pair

 

[PeterA]

This seems like an interesting choice between two good loudspeakers. I heard an early version of the alsyvox about 10 years ago at the New York city audio show. I think it was called the Leonardo back then. It was driven by 14 white tube amplifier which could well I’ve been a Jadis, I can’t remember. It sounded excellent on both classical and jazz. Did not listen to it on really demanding rock or low bass material.

 

[adyc]

If you are in Spain, may be you can go to Takio Audio in Netherlands. They have Alsyvox speakers in their showroom.

 

[twitch]

My guess you have never heard a set that can... this does not mean they do not exist...

that would be correct and I've owned planners / stats for 35 years. So if you know of a pair that will compete in the lower octaves with the best cone drivers I'm all ears !

 

[twitch]

Dave, Have you heard Alsyvox Botticellis?

No, never have but i suppose I should have further stated in my response, 'to normal main stream, affordable and readily available' !

with that being said one of the best musical experiences I've ever heard were a pair of Martin Logan CLX's accompanied with a pair of Descent i subs. If my room was large enough it would have been an 'end game' for me .........

 

[Rhapsody]

No, never have but i suppose I should have further stated in my response, 'to normal main stream, affordable and readily available' !

with that being said one of the best musical experiences I've ever hear were a pair of Martin Logan CLX's accompanied with a pair of Descent i subs. If my room was large enough it would have been an 'end game' for me .........

Fair enough. Not sure where you live, but within the next two months there will be eight Rhapsody Listening Rooms spread across the US. Each location will have either a pair of Alsyvox Tintoretto or Botticellis. Lot's of great systems out there for sure, I'm sure your CLXs/subs sounded GREAT. If you get a chance listen to a pair of Alsyvox, they do move some air in the lower frequencies.

The only other planners that moved as much air for me personally were the Apogees in the 80s, I think I owned six different pairs of Apogees. Even now with the Apogees that are available, they can also move some air down deep.

Big panel full range ribbons do move some air at least imho.

 

[Lampie519]

I've owned planners / stats for 35 years.

Direct driven?

 

[Choqueiro]

Each technology has its virtues and deffects, and they coexist because we are talking about individual and sensorial percepetion, and each one of us we have ”our particular sense of musicality”.

The curious is that the vast majority of the speaker’s designs on the market are cone drivers. Why?? Is the cone design the one that offers the best compromise in all the aspects: bass, dynamics, holographic, sensitivity... even though is not perfect in all the areas??

I’m learning that i should keep learning a lot more... I’m lost at times...

Fresh news: on Saturday 29th I’m going to Port (Portugal) to audition some devices on a shop that organizes an hifi event: Avantgarde, Rockport, Tidal, Vimberg...

 

[twitch]

Direct driven?

No, Maggies and Logans. Interesting, what are those things ?

 

[Lampie519]

No, Maggies and Logans. Interesting, what are those things ?

Against the wall is one Beveridge Model 2 speaker and on the right side (amp attached) is a Acoustat Monitor 4 as it was 15 years ago.
Now i have a stacked Acoustat system (double amount of panels). I will have a new frame soon for these (from ceiling to floor).
When i watch movies the people downstairs wonder why i move my furniture all the time as they can only hear the rumble... "Some planars can move air"", others can move concrete walls...

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Planer and horn speakers would sound very different to each other and I love both of them,that’s why I have 2 systems A horn and planer.I also don’t believe any one speaker regardless of price can play all types of music well.

 

[morricab]

Hi!!

My intention is not to make angry anyone. I know that they are some “similar” old threads on the forum and I have read them before starting the new thread. My intention, is not only to obtain the expert comments from the people on the forum about the general differences between these two technologies, but also the specific differences between these two models if someone had the opportunity to listen to them.

I must tell you that I don’t have the opportunity of hearing the great majority of the products in which I’m interested. I know that audition is the most important part of an election process. But in most cases that is going to be imposible to me. Does it mean that I must refuse the great majority of the speakers in which I’m interested?? Does it mean that I must avoid most of the best products and brands of the Hi-Fi?? My answer is No. And that’s the reason of asking in the forums to knowledge people like you.

About Alsyvox. I talked last week with Daniel Coen (Alsyvox is a rare case of an audio company located in Spain, my country). But the possibility of hearing in person a pair of Botticelli’s (COVID problems appart), is that there is no availability for a few months (they no have anyone in stock). Also I t’s a company that works upon request.

About Classic Audio Loudspeakers. I talked, also, with John Wolff. The problem here is that it is impossible to heard them on my country an the only distributor in Europe works upon request.

I do not exclude the possibility of making a trip and go to an audio show but, right now, in the actual circumstances (COVID) and according to my particular familiar situation is a remote possibility.

Yes, in USA maybe the “trip of hearing and rule out“ is easiest, but I live in Spain unfortunately, and here there is practically no tradition or audiophile companies.

Thanks so much to everyone.

The Alsyvox are very good speakers. Nice bass and incredibly good resolution. Bumping up the sensitivity like they have is a real benefit to ribbons and they come alive with better quality amplifiers. As for the horn design, I haven't heard this model but it has all the right ingredients to be extraordinary.

You should talk to the Aries Cerat distributor in Spain...he can set you up with excellent electronics that will drive either of these speakers brilliantly.

 

[morricab]

Hi!!

My intention is not to make angry anyone. I know that they are some “similar” old threads on the forum and I have read them before starting the new thread. My intention, is not only to obtain the expert comments from the people on the forum about the general differences between these two technologies, but also the specific differences between these two models if someone had the opportunity to listen to them.

I must tell you that I don’t have the opportunity of hearing the great majority of the products in which I’m interested. I know that audition is the most important part of an election process. But in most cases that is going to be imposible to me. Does it mean that I must refuse the great majority of the speakers in which I’m interested?? Does it mean that I must avoid most of the best products and brands of the Hi-Fi?? My answer is No. And that’s the reason of asking in the forums to knowledge people like you.

About Alsyvox. I talked last week with Daniel Coen (Alsyvox is a rare case of an audio company located in Spain, my country). But the possibility of hearing in person a pair of Botticelli’s (COVID problems appart), is that there is no availability for a few months (they no have anyone in stock). Also I t’s a company that works upon request.

About Classic Audio Loudspeakers. I talked, also, with John Wolff. The problem here is that it is impossible to heard them on my country an the only distributor in Europe works upon request.

I do not exclude the possibility of making a trip and go to an audio show but, right now, in the actual circumstances (COVID) and according to my particular familiar situation is a remote possibility.

Yes, in USA maybe the “trip of hearing and rule out“ is easiest, but I live in Spain unfortunately, and here there is practically no tradition or audiophile companies.

Thanks so much to everyone.

Another option to consider would be Diesis Audio Roma Triode speakers. These are from Italy and perhaps you can find a way to hear them as you are in Spain. Of course depending on your budget, the Aries Cerat Symphonia will tick all boxes.

 

[morricab]

I would add to that last sentence ...IN YOUR OWN HOME

I considered switching from horns (old Avantgardes) to electrostatics (new Martin Logan 13As) and read rave reviews and enjoyed a showroom demo. Convinced of their sound quality and enjoying their presentation of familiar music, I ordered a pair.

Well despite these new speakers having Anthem DSP and setting them up and DSP'd with the help of the importer, they just sounded uninvolving and even the 17 year old horns sounded appreciably better on direct comparison – agreed by all who listened.

The reason - my room requires that speakers are placed mid-room, with 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. This makes any speaker that projects half its energy backwards unsuitable in my room. Had I insisted on a home trial, I'd not have bought them and wouldn't have lost a ton of cash selling them "used" after a couple of months. I then bought newer Duos and more recently new Duo XDs, so sticking I’m with horns. However the MLs did sound much better in my dining area - behind the speakers where the horns lose much of their sparkle.

maybe your Class D amps were not a good match for the MLs?

 

[morricab]

Hahaha. If you have hesitations about prior experiences with horns, yes, Alsyvox are awesome. I am a tube guy and I have heard them at audio shows with Solid State, and they blew everything away by a country mile...Are they better than soundlabs with Atmasphere? I don't know. But I ran into a couple of guys who heard Alsyvox with moderately powered Jadis amps. These guys are music lovers before they audiophiles, meaning that they don't partake in the audiophile culture and listen to real music, not audiophile music. These are my kind of guys, and they told me that the Alsyvox with Jadis is as good as this hobby can get.

But if it were me, I'd definitely hear them . especially since you are in Spain... someone must have a pair

I always said that if someone builds a high sensitivity planar magnetic speaker that could be driven by the best amps that it would probably be an unbeatable combination...then Alsyvox did it! I was able to find horns that are uncolored and super transparent but still smooth, so I am not really missing my planar days or really have the itch for the Alsyvox speakers. Would I consider them for an ultimate system someday?? Maybe, but what i heard from the biggest Diesis speaker was also very impressive and the fully horn Aries Cerat Symphonia with its horn sub is at the extreme end of what I could consider.

 

[morricab]

that would be correct and I've owned planners / stats for 35 years. So if you know of a pair that will compete in the lower octaves with the best cone drivers I'm all ears !

Big Acoustats. My Spectra 4400 were flat to 20hz in room...best bass quality I ever had (even better than the bass I had from the Infinity IRS Beta bass bins).

 

[morricab]

Fair enough. Not sure where you live, but within the next two months there will be eight Rhapsody Listening Rooms spread across the US. Each location will have either a pair of Alsyvox Tintoretto or Botticellis. Lot's of great systems out there for sure, I'm sure your CLXs/subs sounded GREAT. If you get a chance listen to a pair of Alsyvox, they do move some air in the lower frequencies.

The only other planners that moved as much air for me personally were the Apogees in the 80s, I think I owned six different pairs of Apogees. Even now with the Apogees that are available, they can also move some air down deep.

Big panel full range ribbons do move some air at least imho.

Yes, Divas moved quite a bit of air as did the Full Range model. Great speakers.

 

[ACHiPo]

I'd like to listen to Sound Labs again. I remember the first time I heard them back in the late 80s they sounded as real as any speaker I've heard. They were playing in a different room and I really thought there was a live piano and guitar player back there. I'm curious if I would still be so impressed. I also wonder how they would do with the wide variety of music I listen to.

 

[Hear Here]

maybe your Class D amps were not a good match for the MLs?

No - In fact I bought a Sanders Magtech amp specifically to power the ML 13As but I also used a GamuT D200 Mk III and other amps. I concluded the problem with electrostatics of the ML design is that they require a wall behind them to harvest some of the 50% of their output that is projected backwards. In my room the wall (in fact floor-to-ceiling glass) is angled and 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. The result (with any amp) was disappointing even with Anthem DSP. In fact my ancient Avantgarde Unos still sounded appreciable better than the new MLs. Peter