Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[PYP]

I perhaps should rephrase my question.

If the slight confusion or tangling of sound disappears when I turn the power off for some hours later, what is it that has disappeared? It isn't a background noise. The sound deteriorates again over some days if I leave the power on, but I don't know whether it is the power or the wifi or the internet that it comes from. There is a PSAudio P20 power conditioner into which all the audio equipment is plugged.

I don't have an explanation, but do have things to try based upon my own experience.

Once a week, reboot the router.

Ground the switch to determine if that helps. Ground to an outlet other than the one powering the equipment, if possible. This one change reduced variability of sound in my setup.

Perhaps demo (with return privileges) a different switch (or use in addition to the current switch).

To shorten the time for optimal sound, keep the switch, streamer and DAC powered at all time. Don't think this has anything to do with your problem however. But is worth trying. Clocks need time to stabilize. Some take a day or more to do so.

Have you tried isolating gear using a different power source for some gear? Cross-contamination of gear is a challenge.

 

[Gregm]

I perhaps should rephrase my question.

If the slight confusion or tangling of sound disappears when I turn the power off for some hours later, what is it that has disappeared? It isn't a background noise. The sound deteriorates again over some days if I leave the power on, but I don't know whether it is the power or the wifi or the internet that it comes from. There is a PSAudio P20 power conditioner into which all the audio equipment is plugged.

Equipment should perform better when on for a while. This has to do with power supply caps charging, temperrature sensitive components reaching optimum operating temp, etc. The audible result is usually slightly (or more than slightly) better resolution & FR extension.
From your description it would seem that something is not quite right somewhere along the line and better resolution seems to resolve... more noise... Strange!

- Can you hear buzzing from the amp's transformers? If so, you may have DC in your AC mains, so a DC blocker is your friend.
- If you stream a lot, do reboot the router as suggested above.
- And, why not, try the system without the power conditioner. The result should be, improved dynamics but rougher /grainier sound.

Good luck!

 

[Lee]

I have been preparing a huge presentation for the local audio club next Sunday the 27th on system setup and the third section is on reducing noise. I have been talking to a ton of industry experts on techniques for reducing noise and then applying them to my main system. In total, I have been refining the system for the past eight weeks and taking my time slowly and critically evaluating the sound quality on a set playlist of demo tracks. Here is a list of refinements:

1. Connecting the Shunyata Denali and Everest conditioners with an 2m Omega ground line.
2. Adding a Shunyata Gemini-4 to the router with Alpha ground wire to unused ethernet port.
3. Adding Synergistic Tranquility Pod Carbons to the top of my DAC and linestage.
4. Adding a Synergistic an FEQ Carbon tower to be dead center of the loudspeakers.
5. Adding Synergistic HFTs to the speakers.
6. Upgrading the Shunyata power cords to Sigma-X on the Denali and Everest.
7. Repositioning the Synergistic black box to be on the right of the room.
8. Uncoiling some extra ethernet and subwoofer cable.
9. Finished cleaning all contacts.
10. Replaced the resistors on the Alexia Vs.
11. Upgraded the XLRs on the Revox tape deck.
12. Moved up two levels to a Synergistic SRX power cable on the ethernet switch.
13. Grounded all Synergistic devices to an Active Ground Block.
14. Removed a bunch of excess cables from behind the rack and organized the remaining cables for a significantly cleaner layout.
15. At the suggestion of Scott Carpenter at Evolution I moved the amplifier back a bit.
16. Did a slight repositioning of the GIK acoustic panels.

What I am hearing now from the refinements is the following:

1. Better dynamics. Everything is punchier in a good way.
2. Better sense of flow in the music, the overused “effortless” if you will.
3. No noise at all.
4. Much deeper bass with lots of realism.
5. More resolution but not analytical sounding at all.
6. Improved imaging in the sense of the performers feel more live and natural.

Next I am doing an bearing oil change on the Continuum, adding eight 32lb capacity IsoAcoustic Burgundy footers for better isolation, installing a new Continuum Cobra arm with better internal wiring, and adding in a Synergistic SRX phono cable and a new metal clamp to secure the RCA junction box..

Being a noise detective is real work but the rewards are so incredibly worth it.

 

[Arewethereyet]

I have been preparing a huge presentation for the local audio club next Sunday the 27th on system setup and the third section is on reducing noise. I have been talking to a ton of industry experts on techniques for reducing noise and then applying them to my main system. In total, I have been refining the system for the past eight weeks and taking my time slowly and critically evaluating the sound quality on a set playlist of demo tracks. Here is a list of refinements:

1. Connecting the Shunyata Denali and Everest conditioners with an 2m Omega ground line.
2. Adding a Shunyata Gemini-4 to the router with Alpha ground wire to unused ethernet port.
3. Adding Synergistic Tranquility Pod Carbons to the top of my DAC and linestage.
4. Adding a Synergistic an FEQ Carbon tower to be dead center of the loudspeakers.
5. Adding Synergistic HFTs to the speakers.
6. Upgrading the Shunyata power cords to Sigma-X on the Denali and Everest.
7. Repositioning the Synergistic black box to be on the right of the room.
8. Uncoiling some extra ethernet and subwoofer cable.
9. Finished cleaning all contacts.
10. Replaced the resistors on the Alexia Vs.
11. Upgraded the XLRs on the Revox tape deck.
12. Moved up two levels to a Synergistic SRX power cable on the ethernet switch.
13. Grounded all Synergistic devices to an Active Ground Block.
14. Removed a bunch of excess cables from behind the rack and organized the remaining cables for a significantly cleaner layout.
15. At the suggestion of Scott Carpenter at Evolution I moved the amplifier back a bit.
16. Did a slight repositioning of the GIK acoustic panels.

What I am hearing now from the refinements is the following:

1. Better dynamics. Everything is punchier in a good way.
2. Better sense of flow in the music, the overused “effortless” if you will.
3. No noise at all.
4. Much deeper bass with lots of realism.
5. More resolution but not analytical sounding at all.
6. Improved imaging in the sense of the performers feel more live and natural.

Next I am doing an bearing oil change on the Continuum, adding eight 32lb capacity IsoAcoustic Burgundy footers for better isolation, installing a new Continuum Cobra arm with better internal wiring, and adding in a Synergistic SRX phono cable and a new metal clamp to secure the RCA junction box..

Being a noise detective is real work but the rewards are so incredibly worth it.

An excellent write up. What would you consider gave you the most impact of these changes? Did you implement these changes all at once and then evaluate or in steps assessing each change? I have the Wilson Sasha Vs and interested in how the change in resistors affected and improved your sound as well.

 

[Lee]

An excellent write up. What would you consider gave you the most impact of these changes? Did you implement these changes all at once and then evaluate or in steps assessing each change? I have the Wilson Sasha Vs and interested in how the change in resistors affected and improved your sound as well.

Biggest changes were resistor update, new Sigma-X cables and Gemini-4 on router, Omega ground cable, and FEQ Carbon with Tranquility Pod Carbons.

I stopped at each step and did a thorough A/B. Each step gave an improvement.

 

[mtemur]

To minimize noise, it’s best to have a single, properly constructed ground for the entire system and, ideally, a single dedicated AC line. While multiple dedicated lines can work without issue, using one line with a common ground is the safer and more consistent approach. The AC line should be free of fuses or any other elements that could introduce resistance — only a circuit breaker with copper contacts should be in the path not a fuse and surely not an audiophile fuse. It’s also important to eliminate all switch-mode power supplies and to unplug devices like TVs, refrigerators, and computers as preventive measures. Another key step is removing dimmers and any balancing transformers used with fluorescent lighting, as these can also inject noise into the system. Dimmers are very notorious.

I don’t want to be rude but I also want to be direct. Sorry in advance for my following comments.

1. Connecting the Shunyata Denali and Everest conditioners with an 2m Omega ground line.
2. Adding a Shunyata Gemini-4 to the router with Alpha ground wire to unused ethernet port.
3. Adding Synergistic Tranquility Pod Carbons to the top of my DAC and linestage.
4. Adding a Synergistic an FEQ Carbon tower to be dead center of the loudspeakers.
5. Adding Synergistic HFTs to the speakers.
6. Upgrading the Shunyata power cords to Sigma-X on the Denali and Everest.
7. Repositioning the Synergistic black box to be on the right of the room.
12. Moved up two levels to a Synergistic SRX power cable on the ethernet switch.
15. At the suggestion of Scott Carpenter at Evolution I moved the amplifier back a bit.
16. Did a slight repositioning of the GIK acoustic panels.

Total nonsense. Actually adding them can cause noise. It’s an advertisement not noise preventive measures.

8. Uncoiling some extra ethernet and subwoofer cable.
9. Finished cleaning all contacts.
11. Upgraded the XLRs on the Revox tape deck.
14. Removed a bunch of excess cables from behind the rack and organized the remaining cables for a significantly cleaner layout.

Ok. these can really help to reduce noise.

10. Replaced the resistors on the Alexia Vs.

Why there is the need for replacing them in the first place? Totally irrelevant.

 

[PYP]

To minimize noise, it’s best to have a single, properly constructed ground for the entire system and, ideally, a single dedicated AC line. While multiple dedicated lines can work without issue, using one line with a common ground is the safer and more consistent approach.

Since my setup is rather simple, I was able to experiment with using only one dedicated line for all gear and it was indeed an improvement over using two (amps on one, everything else on the other). That surprised me since it seems many folks have gone in the opposite direction, with many dedicated lines. I'm not assuming that doesn't work for them, just that one line works for my particular setup.

The other thing that worked was grounding the switch (only) that feeds the streamer (grounding didn't work as I had hoped for the other gear). The ground uses the other dedicated line.

 

[Al M.]

Since my setup is rather simple, I was able to experiment with using only one dedicated line for all gear and it was indeed an improvement over using two (amps on one, everything else on the other). That surprised me since it seems many folks have gone in the opposite direction, with many dedicated lines. I'm not assuming that doesn't work for them, just that one line works for my particular setup.

I have a single dedicated AC line that feeds all my gear as well.

 

[Lee]

To minimize noise, it’s best to have a single, properly constructed ground for the entire system and, ideally, a single dedicated AC line. While multiple dedicated lines can work without issue, using one line with a common ground is the safer and more consistent approach. The AC line should be free of fuses or any other elements that could introduce resistance — only a circuit breaker with copper contacts should be in the path not a fuse and surely not an audiophile fuse. It’s also important to eliminate all switch-mode power supplies and to unplug devices like TVs, refrigerators, and computers as preventive measures. Another key step is removing dimmers and any balancing transformers used with fluorescent lighting, as these can also inject noise into the system. Dimmers are very notorious.

I don’t want to be rude but I also want to be direct. Sorry in advance for my following comments.


Total nonsense. Actually adding them can cause noise. It’s an advertisement not noise preventive measures.


Ok. these can really help to reduce noise.


Why there is the need for replacing them in the first place? Totally irrelevant.

If you have not added these devices to a similar system then you lack the experience to claim they don’t lower noise.

I am simply and honestly reporting what worked for me in my system. Three experienced audiophiles have been over at various stages and remarked on the progress.

 

[mtemur]

If you have not added these devices to a similar system then you lack the experience to claim they don’t lower noise.

There is no need to jump out of the cliff to know that you’re going to die.

 

[Lee]

There is no need to jump out of the cliff to know that you’re going to die.

Why do you believe that improving ac power and grounding in this fashion won’t work?

I have had great success with both Shunyata and Synergistic products.

 

[mtemur]

Why do you believe that improving ac power and grounding in this fashion won’t work?

I believe improving AC and grounding will work. Actually that’s what I recommended. Please check my post you replied earlier.

What I don’t believe is the products you recommended will improve AC power. BTW I tried some of the products from your list in the past.

Additionally I use Synergistic Research powercell but I’m aware that it’s not reducing noise or filtering anything actually. It’s just a tweak, just like many SR products. My friends also use powercells and other products. I cannot stand transformer based, serial filters that are getting in the way by strangling and slowing the AC line. Every manufacturer of AC filter says otherwise but in reality they slow down the AC line.

 

[Amir]

three companies products are more imune to noise:

Wadax digital system
ASR Emitter amplifier and Basis phonostage
Purist Audio Cables

 

[Lee]

three companies products are more imune to noise:

Wadax digital system
ASR Emitter amplifier and Basis phonostage
Purist Audio Cables

Evidence?

 

[Ron Resnick]

To minimize noise, it’s best to have a single, properly constructed ground for the entire system and, ideally, a single dedicated AC line.

I agree fully and strongly with this. To me this is the place to start, not with power conditioners and grounding boxes and RFI doo-dads.

My amplifiers are natively single-ended, so I use single-ended interconnects. But if someone has a single-ended system and is worried about noise demons they may not know about, the second step would be to calm one's OCD by switching to true-balanced connections and cables.

 

[Jack Pot]

There we go again. Yeasayer vs Naysayer.

I have repeated ad nauseam on this and other forums that good, clean power and "taming" vibration and resonance unleashes the full potential of any hifi installation. No need to upgrade until the very basic premises on which good hifi rests are fully implemented: (i) good, clean power and (ii) vibration and resonance mitigation. Lots of clever engineers have studied the problem and have produced surprising solutions at every price point.
I have arrived at the end of my quest, and yes, the pricier solutions often deliver better results.
I would recommend ANY hifi enthusiast to begin by buying the best "first" power cord he can afford, often leading into a distribution block. There are excellent 2nd hand deals around, and 2nd hand Nordost Odin power cables excel at the task. Thereafter, the dedicated hifi distribution block needs to be carefully selected. I was shocked by the improvement a pricey Nordost QB10 distribution block brought to my system (upgrading from expensive QB8's). But there are so many other options. Unfortunately, I have not tried them. Once these are in place, the rest of the cable loom is less important, especially for vinylistas (good digital sound is very dependent on matching cable looms).
The second area of attention is the racks supporting the equipment. I cannot make recommendations here, as my experience is too limited. Personally, I invested in a moderately expensive rack system by NEO because I could match the colour of the NEO shelves with that of my horn loudspeakers. And NEO racks have good modularity. Much more important IMHO is what you put between the shelf and the equipment. Think Acapella, Townsend, Synergistic Research etc... platforms, and/or dedicated feet. Or check out Artesiana, Grand Prix, HRS racks at higher price points. Again, thousands of solutions are available to suit every purse and... taste!
For some reason, platforms or dedicated feet supporting loudspeakers are often neglected in the discussion.

The point I want to make is the following: it is not difficult and only moderately expensive to improve any Hifi system by judiciously choosing a first power cable, a good distribution block, both often available 2nd hand, and a rack that will let further improvements shine through. All naysayers haven't taken the trouble to sit down and listen.

 

[Lee]

I agree fully and strongly with this. To me this is the place to start, not with power conditioners and grounding boxes and RFI doo-dads.

My amplifiers are natively single-ended, so I use single-ended interconnects. But if someone has a single-ended system and is worried about noise demons they may not know about, the second step would be to calm one's OCD by switching to true-balanced connections and cables.

I was not implying anything different in my long post. I was simply sharing what I have done post clean power that is improving sound quality.

 

[John T]

There we go again. Yeasayer vs Naysayer.

I have repeated ad nauseam on this and other forums that good, clean power and "taming" vibration and resonance unleashes the full potential of any hifi installation. No need to upgrade until the very basic premises on which good hifi rests are fully implemented: (i) good, clean power and (ii) vibration and resonance mitigation. Lots of clever engineers have studied the problem and have produced surprising solutions at every price point.
I have arrived at the end of my quest, and yes, the pricier solutions often deliver better results.
I would recommend ANY hifi enthusiast to begin by buying the best "first" power cord he can afford, often leading into a distribution block. There are excellent 2nd hand deals around, and 2nd hand Nordost Odin power cables excel at the task. Thereafter, the dedicated hifi distribution block needs to be carefully selected. I was shocked by the improvement a pricey Nordost QB10 distribution block brought to my system (upgrading from expensive QB8's). But there are so many other options. Unfortunately, I have not tried them. Once these are in place, the rest of the cable loom is less important, especially for vinylistas (good digital sound is very dependent on matching cable looms).
The second area of attention is the racks supporting the equipment. I cannot make recommendations here, as my experience is too limited. Personally, I invested in a moderately expensive rack system by NEO because I could match the colour of the NEO shelves with that of my horn loudspeakers. And NEO racks have good modularity. Much more important IMHO is what you put between the shelf and the equipment. Think Acapella, Townsend, Synergistic Research etc... platforms, and/or dedicated feet. Or check out Artesiana, Grand Prix, HRS racks at higher price points. Again, thousands of solutions are available to suit every purse and... taste!
For some reason, platforms or dedicated feet supporting loudspeakers are often neglected in the discussion.

The point I want to make is the following: it is not difficult and only moderately expensive to improve any Hifi system by judiciously choosing a first power cable, a good distribution block, both often available 2nd hand, and a rack that will let further improvements shine through. All naysayers haven't taken the trouble to sit down and listen.

I couldn't agree more! Good clean, consistent, power. Resonance is often overlooked. I live in a log home, 6" thick logs. If I knew what I know now, when I built the house, I would have spent the extra money and gone with 8" logs. I'm fortunate to be able to come off of the log wall, with very large brackets (lagged) for the main shelf. I'm able to float it, most of the components have no contact with the floor. Except my amp and network rack. (that I built).

I've been experimenting for weeks now to incorporated additional isolation per component in the form of a platform. Several iterations! Too many combinations of materials to list. I finally have a combination that I like that incorporates 1/2" solid aluminum as the center core of the platform...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I was not implying anything different in my long post. I was simply sharing what I have done post clean power that is improving sound quality.

I did not mean to suggest that you were implying anything different.

 

[Ron Resnick]

There we go again. Yeasayer vs Naysayer.

No need to upgrade until the very basic premises on which good hifi rests are fully implemented: (i) good, clean power and (ii) vibration and resonance mitigation. Lots of clever engineers have studied the problem and have produced surprising solutions at every price point.
I have arrived at the end of my quest, and yes, the pricier solutions often deliver better results.

I did not intend to be naysaying. I posted that to me "good, clean power" begins with a low resistance to ground electrical circuit ground system and dedicated AC line(s), rather than with power cords and power conditioners.