Next up: What is room pressurization?

[Phelonious Ponk]

I thought the "what is microdynamics" thread went rather well. Not conclusive, by any means, but I didn't expect that. The best I expected was a detailed, insightful discussion of what different people mean when they use that word in an audiophile context. Got it. The worst? If it happened, it did so behind the blissful ignore screen . So, another term used often in audiophiledom. Is it related to the formal definition of pressurize?

to confine the contents of a space under a pressure greater than that of the outside atmosphere;

Probably not. This would imply massive spls in a sealed room. Think Basspig locked inside his listening room with a caulking gun. So what does it mean to you?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Basically, that you can feel it and not just hear it.

At least this is a thread where there isn't much to be debated. Electromotive force does create pressure and that pressure will fill a room until it is absorbed, escapes or both. Newton's is enough to explain it. If you have to draw on Boyle's, you've gone waaaaaay too far! :

 

[RUR]

Pressure vessel gain

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Basically, that you can feel it and not just hear it.

At least this is a thread where there isn't much to be debated. Electromotive force does create pressure and that pressure will fill a room until it is absorbed, escapes or both. Newton's is enough to explain it. If you have to draw on Boyle's, you've gone waaaaaay too far! :

Yeah. that's my thing this week; nothing to debate, just personal definitions to discuss. I see one possible flaw in yours: Stand in front of a stack of front-loaded horns filled with 18" drivers, powered by thousands of watts....at an outdoor venue. You'll feel it. There's no room. The other reason why I think it's worth discussing is that I think a lot of people's use of the term seems to refer to something heard, not felt, something other than the pressure of electromotive force.

Tim
Tim

 

[JackD201]

Now you're nitpicking or being a smart @ss . That stack pressurized the air where you're standing. It just went in one direction and never came back at you.

I don't think I've come across anybody that associates it with something just heard. It would be interesting to see who does and why.

 

[RBFC]

Each "room" has its signature fundamental resonant frequency. This lies in the low bass. With your eyes closed, you can get a feeling for the size of a room by how that frequency is excited by any sound source. Reverberation also plays a part in this effect. There have been many reports of subwoofers adding space to the playback of a recording, separate from the reproduction of "musical" information.

Lee

 

[rockitman]

Basically, that you can feel it and not just hear it.

At least this is a thread where there isn't much to be debated. Electromotive force does create pressure and that pressure will fill a room until it is absorbed, escapes or both. Newton's is enough to explain it. If you have to draw on Boyle's, you've gone waaaaaay too far! :

That's how I view room pressurization and the level of which is format dependent, imo. I find a quality R2R tape compared to it's vinyl coumterpart to pressurize the listening room more. This means to me that I feel the bass more than with vinyl as if there is a lower octave I'm getting from tape versus vinyl. I will say my vinyl rig in no slouch in this area and comes quite close to R2R, but R2R has the definite edge. YMMV depending on source material quality whether record or tape.

 

[microstrip]

At the risk of some people thinking that this only adds confusion, I would ask when do you feel that real music pressurizes a space? For me, the same thing happens in concert halls or even small auditoriums or jazz clubs.

I feel it is associated with transient response in connection with clear and well defined bass frequencies, sometimes with a small excess in the bass zone between 30 and 40 Hz. I say it because full range dipoles have typically this response, when placed far from the back wall, falling in a fast way bellow it. We often refer that usually they manage to pressurize the room, although measured response does not extend in the very lows.

 

[FrantzM]

Micro

I have great experience with dipole and if there is something i can tell they never do is the sensation of pressure upon your body.. That bass in the chest sensation is not wha dipole do well .. However low they may go ... I believe we may have to get to define our terms properly. Pressurization is felt at the ear and somewhat body level... In some cases of extreme pressurization, ask any one who has experience the Rotary sub, you can even feel sick.. The compression of air in the room is palpable .. That is pressurization to me.. We , audiophile will take any good word and trivialize it to the point of useless-ness. Let's try not to do the same for pressurization ... Remember what we did to "Transparency"?
R2R, Vinyl, Digital-lossless , digital lossy (mp3, etc) do it with the appropriate content and transducers. The better the room sealing and isolation, the better the impression of pressure .. If you really want to experience Room Pressurization, get in a car with some serious subs.. You will know what I mean ...

 

[Steve Williams]

R2R, Vinyl, Digital-lossless , digital lossy (mp3, etc) do it with the appropriate content and transducers. The better the room sealing and isolation, the better the impression of pressure

Frantz, perhaps it's my ears but I have never heard (or felt) a room pressurized with mp3 digital lossless etc as I have with R2R

Is everyone else here who hears or feels the same with R2R delusional.

Rockitman posted his feelings here this morning as well.

You might say it exists and perhaps it does. It just doesn't IMHO the same as with R2R

 

[Soundproof]

Question: I'm assuming that we are speaking of either 15 i.p.s. Tape Project type reels, or the original on tape 2- or 4-track releases.
Does anyone know with certainty how the bass signal was handled on these? On vinyl it was SOP to merge L and R into a mono bass signal - is it separated on RTR-tapes?

 

[RBFC]

Question: I'm assuming that we are speaking of either 15 i.p.s. Tape Project type reels, or the original on tape 2- or 4-track releases.
Does anyone know with certainty how the bass signal was handled on these? On vinyl it was SOP to merge L and R into a mono bass signal - is it separated on RTR-tapes?

This is an interesting comment. Via different sources, there could be some cross-channel cancellation (LP's summed bass) that would behave differently in-room than true stereo bass (R2R, CD). This could absolutely have an effect on how listening room acoustics present the effect upon playback.

Lee

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Now you're nitpicking or being a smart @ss .

Thanks for noticing. It's my mission and I take it quite seriously.

Tim

 

[RBFC]

Tim has a black belt in smart-@ss-fu. Your powers are weak.....

Lee

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim has a black belt in smart-@ss-fu. Your powers are weak.....

Lee

A digital black belt. Deeper blacks....

This is getting really interesting, because there appear to be at least two (not necessarily conflicting) views of room pressurization (which I think may be a misnomer, as the room may aid or amplify the effect, but is not necessarily the point). One view is of a phenomenon occuring when sound pressure levels are intense enough to be felt. This is necessarily going to be about bass, unless the spls are just totally out of control (deaf audiophiles, anyone?). Another view experiences superior "pressurization" from media without superior bass performance. Or at least I think so. Does R2R put out deeper bass than vinyl? How about digital?

This must be about something else....

Tim

 

[Soundproof]

I don't see a conflict - as a separated L/R bass signal might create a more believable resonance in the room, than one where the signals have been merged, and are possibly cancelling to a degree. That might account for a difference in perception, but would require that the L/R bass was separated on RTR.

Then, of course, it comes down to what people mean by pressurization, which seems to be a multi-colored Zebra as of now. Maybe it will get better defined, as we move along.

 

[RBFC]

Tim,

Having separate bass sources (playing different information) in a room will provide a different frequency response at the listening position when compared to both those sources playing a summed signal.

Lee

 

[FrantzM]

Steve

At Tzucc... It was DVD they were playing right? Did you not feel the room pressurize to the point of motion sickness? Audio from movie DVD (not HD-DVD or Bluray) is lossy. Now remember you posted that the sensation began before any sound ... I would think it is anticipation of a medium you enjoy immensely more so than the sound in itself but if you feel the room pressurize more .. well you did ... What I conceive as pressurization, i have gotten it from diferent systems ... I sincerely don'tt hink it is source dependent but .. YMMV ..
The words tend to lose their meanings in Audiophile discussions, most people would conceive room pressurization as a sensation of pressure... We audiophile are making a different thing of it ... so be it .. I do however think that such tendencies limits the value of any discussion as to come to a state of incommunicability ... We are smoothly going there IMO

 

[Steve Williams]

Frantz you are correct. The TRW is an entity unto itself and I would suggest that it is a different beast than other subs. No I don't believe we are going where you suggest Frantz. We are looking for some common understanding and to always put off or put down people's opinions doesn't always get us there. Just my $0.02

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I understand where Frantz is coming from. If the words we use in our daily conversations mean radically different things to different people, they're not worth much. And I have no pretense of changing any of that with these threads. I won't even be opening one entitled "What is Musical?" for example. But I think they make for interestng discussion, and that's what we're here for....

Tim