Nat Audio - giant killers?

[christoph]

What speakers do you intend to drive with the VA 300?

 

[Verastarr]

What speakers do you intend to drive with the VA 300?

Pureaudioproject Trio 15 Voxativ...

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15-voxativ-open-baffle-speakers/

I am driving them now with 8W 300B WE91A clone monos.

 

[christoph]

Wow. They look very interesting.
Thanks for providing the link.

 

[Verastarr]

Wow. They look very interesting.
Thanks for providing the link.

You bet. They are a true value, and the performance is very good. I will be exhibiting with them in Munich if you will attend.

 

[morricab]

Well Dejan finally responded with Schematics, but in typical fashion (just like my Generators) the schematic is of another version of the Symmetrical that does not use the tube that I need to repair... lol... sheesh.. unreal.. It almost seems like every NAT piece is a one off. Like they just use whats on hand or what they want to test out or something. Ive compared photos inside the Symmetrical and they nearly all use different parts.
So I bought a KR Audio VA-300 with 842 VHD tubes in it just to get my feet wet. I've already talked to Marek about replacing OPT's to bump it up to 20W of the 320... Lets see how she sounds..

Yeah that seems to be NAT. My Plasma uses 6 PCC88s per channel whereas the last versions were using 2 6N30s per channel... go figure.

842VHDs would be quite limited in a VA300, which is designed for a normal 300B. I would think the power supply would be inadequate as well as the output trannies. You won't be running the 842 in its ideal conditions but I guess it will work. If you have KR 300Bs I would stick with those until you get mods done or you might not hear the amp as intended.

 

[Verastarr]

Yeah that seems to be NAT. My Plasma uses 6 PCC88s per channel whereas the last versions were using 2 6N30s per channel... go figure.

842VHDs would be quite limited in a VA300, which is designed for a normal 300B. I would think the power supply would be inadequate as well as the output trannies. You won't be running the 842 in its ideal conditions but I guess it will work. If you have KR 300Bs I would stick with those until you get mods done or you might not hear the amp as intended.

Well they are coming with 842 and no 300B, he said the previous owner to him did it. Ive got EML 300BXLS on the way, but no idea how they compare electrically to KR.

I found this interesting.

http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductDetail.aspx?CatID=14&ProductID=12

So If the OPTS are fair priced I'll go for the 320 Mod and do it myself. 20W of SET will rock those speakers.

Have any of you owned Kronzilla ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yeah that seems to be NAT. My Plasma uses 6 PCC88s per channel whereas the last versions were using 2 6N30s per channel... go figure.

. . .

If true about NAT then that is disappointing. SpiritofMusic what say you? Does NAT just pull from the general parts bin as orders come in?

 

[Verastarr]

If true about NAT then that is disappointing. SpiritofMusic what say you? Does NAT just pull from the general parts bin as orders come in?

Ron, even if thats what they did, the products still sound phenomenal. Its just frustrating for OCD audio tweakers like me. Maybe they are evolving the design the whole time, who knows. Service is a total pain..

 

[christoph]

Hi Verastarr

Funny you ask about the Kronzilla.
I have two sets of VA 350i (one poweramp and one integrated) and they are both phaenomenal.
When I got the possibility to buy my dream amp, the Kronzilla, I took the chance, but I wasn't happy with the result. Both my VA 350i sounded more alive and resolving, while my Zilla sounded powerful and robust, but unfortunately a little dull. I was quite disappointed because the Zilla was supposed to sound better than the 350i, but it didn't. After all the Kronzilla is the top model, right? I thought that maybe something wasn't right with my Zilla.
Today I stuck in some replacement tubes and oh my, my Zilla finally sounds like I know and expected her to sound. The air and vividness of the 350i combined with the effortless power and the robustness of the Zilla before.
The original tubes obviously were tired and caused that dullness.
I'm one happy camper now

 

[Verastarr]

Hi Verastarr

Funny you ask about the Kronzilla.
I have two sets of VA 350i (one poweramp and one integrated) and they are both phaenomenal.
When I got the possibility to buy my dream amp, the Kronzilla, I took the chance, but I wasn't happy with the result. Both my VA 350i sounded more alive and resolving, while my Zilla sounded powerful and robust, but unfortunately a little dull. I was quite disappointed because the Zilla was supposed to sound better than the 350i, but it didn't. After all the Kronzilla is the top model, right? I thought that maybe something wasn't right with my Zilla.
Today I stuck in some replacement tubes and oh my, my Zilla finally sounds like I know and expected her to sound. The air and vividness of the 350i combined with the effortless power and the robustness of the Zilla before.
The original tubes obviously were tired and caused that dullness.
I'm one happy camper now

I was going to ask that question.. Which KZ do you have ? What could someone expect to pay for tubes of that size ? KZ is in my sights.

I was thinking about adding DC filament supplies to my NAT Generators. Does anyone have any opinion on if its worth it ?

Cheers !

Mike

 

[christoph]

I have the Kronzilla SX (Stereo, 2x 50 watts)
I think a pair (2) replacement tubes would cost about 2500 euro
Which Kronzilla model is on your radar?

 

[Verastarr]

Basically I mean I intend to read more about them. perhaps DM.. I'm just wondering what will replace the NAT Generators..
M

 

[LL21]

Hi Verastarr

Funny you ask about the Kronzilla.
I have two sets of VA 350i (one poweramp and one integrated) and they are both phaenomenal.
When I got the possibility to buy my dream amp, the Kronzilla, I took the chance, but I wasn't happy with the result. Both my VA 350i sounded more alive and resolving, while my Zilla sounded powerful and robust, but unfortunately a little dull. I was quite disappointed because the Zilla was supposed to sound better than the 350i, but it didn't. After all the Kronzilla is the top model, right? I thought that maybe something wasn't right with my Zilla.
Today I stuck in some replacement tubes and oh my, my Zilla finally sounds like I know and expected her to sound. The air and vividness of the 350i combined with the effortless power and the robustness of the Zilla before.
The original tubes obviously were tired and caused that dullness.
I'm one happy camper now

That exact description happened to me with Zanden...it was in my case mellifluous but 'lite'. We changed all the tubes, particularly PSU tubes to Mullards (Amperex for signal) on the advice of Brent Jessee...and in a shoot out it gave up nothing on bass and growl relative to an Esoteric and a Audio Aero La Source...and this was before we stuck in the Zanden Transport, and added a whole load of isolation under and on top of the 4 Zanden boxes which have continued to solidify the signal and the impression of its delivery power/presentation.

changing tubes does certainly make a difference. Does the Kronzilla drive 'any' kind of load? Thinking about my Wilsons which are 95db efficient and around a 6ohm-70hm load across nearly the entire frequency other than a tad above 15khz where it dips to 3ohm.

 

[morricab]

Basically I mean I intend to read more about them. perhaps DM.. I'm just wondering what will replace the NAT Generators..
M

Have a look at Aries Cerat Diana Forte. 60 watts of SET beast. Ayon Vulcan Evo is another to consider in addition to Kronzilla (supposedly the best sounding KR model is the VA680). Of course the current NAT SE2 using GM70 output tubes should be considered as well as Transmitter.

 

[morricab]

That exact description happened to me with Zanden...it was in my case mellifluous but 'lite'. We changed all the tubes, particularly PSU tubes to Mullards (Amperex for signal) on the advice of Brent Jessee...and in a shoot out it gave up nothing on bass and growl relative to an Esoteric and a Audio Aero La Source...and this was before we stuck in the Zanden Transport, and added a whole load of isolation under and on top of the 4 Zanden boxes which have continued to solidify the signal and the impression of its delivery power/presentation.

changing tubes does certainly make a difference. Does the Kronzilla drive 'any' kind of load? Thinking about my Wilsons which are 95db efficient and around a 6ohm-70hm load across nearly the entire frequency other than a tad above 15khz where it dips to 3ohm.

Yes it will drive your Wilsons effortlessly. I have tested VA350 on X1s (mkI and mkIII) and it was pretty awesome. All the big SETs mentioned will drive wilsons well.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Have a look at Aries Cerat Diana Forte. 60 watts of SET beast. Ayon Vulcan Evo is another to consider in addition to Kronzilla (supposedly the best sounding KR model is the VA680). Of course the current NAT SE2 using GM70 output tubes should be considered as well as Transmitter.

Brad, does one or more of the Wavacs fit into this list? What about NAT Magma New? Viva Aurora?

How about this Thrax Spartacus DHT (70w) from Audio Union?: http://audio-union.com/Spartacus.php?cid=15

Which, theoretically, do you prefer? DHT push-pull or non-DHT but SET?

 

[LL21]

Yes it will drive your Wilsons effortlessly. I have tested VA350 on X1s (mkI and mkIII) and it was pretty awesome. All the big SETs mentioned will drive wilsons well.

Thanks! Will look further into it for fun.

 

[morricab]

Brad, does one or more of the Wavacs fit into this list? What about NAT Magma New? Viva Aurora?

How about this Thrax Spartacus DHT (70w) from Audio Union?: http://audio-union.com/Spartacus.php?cid=15

Which, theoretically, do you prefer? DHT push-pull or non-DHT but SET?

Hi Ron,
I have heard only the WAVAC HE805 and that was sublime...it is rated at 45 watts so on paper it should have some drive capability but in reality I do not know. Haven't heard the Magma or Viva Aurora, although Viva has a reputation of have a rather "tubey" sound...I cannot confirm this.

I theoretically, and normally in practice, prefer SET over any kind of push/pull. The main non-DHT SET is either a triode wired pentode (like EL34, KT88 or KT150) or something like a 6C33C. The 6C33C, as you know, is capable of making simply world class sound and it is a very good output tube. I am not as familar with the triode wired pentodes that are IDHT. Aries Cerat uses DHT pentodes wired as triodes and that is amazingly good.

Class A triode push/pull is also quite good sounding but its ultimate potential is a step below, IMO. I would prefer one of these though to a poorly designed and executed SET. Something from Canary Audio would be interesting. CAT makes good sounding PP Class A triode (pentodes wired in triode) amps that are also very powerful. We still preferred a NAT SE2SE over a CAT JL2 signature though. There is an interesting Chinese amp from Antique Sound lab, the Cadenza DT, which is 60 watts of Class A triode (845s)...that could be nice. Finally, there is the Lamm ML1.1, which is 90 watts of push/pull triode from two 6C33C output tubes. I don't think this is truly Class A because 90 watts seems to be too much for this output stage in Class A. Normally, I would expect around 40 watts Class A from a pair of 6C33Cs PP. Joule Electra made an amp like that called the Stargate...always looked interesting. They also made a 70 watt version called Heaven's Gate...but the HEAT! The 6C33C is the most ferrociously hot tube I have ever played with.

 

[morricab]

Brad, does one or more of the Wavacs fit into this list? What about NAT Magma New? Viva Aurora?

How about this Thrax Spartacus DHT (70w) from Audio Union?: http://audio-union.com/Spartacus.php?cid=15

Which, theoretically, do you prefer? DHT push-pull or non-DHT but SET?

Hi Ron,
I have heard only the WAVAC HE805 and that was sublime...it is rated at 45 watts so on paper it should have some drive capability but in reality I do not know. Haven't heard the Magma or Viva Aurora, although Viva has a reputation of have a rather "tubey" sound...I cannot confirm this.

I theoretically, and normally in practice, prefer SET over any kind of push/pull. The main non-DHT SET is either a triode wired pentode (like EL34, KT88 or KT150) or something like a 6C33C. The 6C33C, as you know, is capable of making simply world class sound and it is a very good output tube. I am not as familar with the triode wired pentodes that are IDHT. Aries Cerat uses DHT pentodes wired as triodes and that is amazingly good.

Class A triode push/pull is also quite good sounding but its ultimate potential is a step below, IMO. I would prefer one of these though to a poorly designed and executed SET. Something from Canary Audio would be interesting. CAT makes good sounding PP Class A triode (pentodes wired in triode) amps that are also very powerful. We still preferred a NAT SE2SE over a CAT JL2 signature though. There is an interesting Chinese amp from Antique Sound lab, the Cadenza DT, which is 60 watts of Class A triode (845s)...that could be nice. Finally, there is the Lamm ML1.1, which is 90 watts of push/pull triode from two 6C33C output tubes. I don't think this is truly Class A because 90 watts seems to be too much for this output stage in Class A. Normally, I would expect around 40 watts Class A from a pair of 6C33Cs PP. Joule Electra made an amp like that called the Stargate...always looked interesting. They also made a 70 watt version called Heaven's Gate...but the HEAT! The 6C33C is the most ferrociously hot tube I have ever played with.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Ron,
I have heard only the WAVAC HE805 and that was sublime...it is rated at 45 watts so on paper it should have some drive capability but in reality I do not know. Haven't heard the Magma or Viva Aurora, although Viva has a reputation of have a rather "tubey" sound...I cannot confirm this.
(...)

Wow, sublime. Do you consider it superior to others we are addressing?