My 2 channel experiment

Feb 8, 2011
23,534
1,015
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#41
Hi Bob,

I enjoy putting the time in on my system(s) and when I get the results that I do,I'm happy. I'm glad you enjoy what I do...it's fun too. Thank you
Yes Roger; you were absent for a while, and since you came back I read all your posts because you are one of my favorite friends here at WBF.
And I find it fascinating too your passion for R-2-R machines and all (very good memories), and if only my own passion could be resurrected in that department like yours is.
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#42
Yes Roger; you were absent for a while, and since you came back I read all your posts because you are one of my favorite friends here at WBF.
And I find it fascinating too your passion for R-2-R machines and all (very good memories), and if only my own passion could be resurrected in that department like yours is.
Likewise Bob.....you are a good friend...enjoy.:)
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#43
I have to add a final piece about my noise experiment. Noise and distortion go hand and hand. When I inserted my nuvistor preamp the whole character of my sound changed. The psycho system now became a integral and important part of the sound.No longer was it just a tone device adding to high frequency. Now the psychos enhance all information presented. A long with the noiseless signal the recording is "faithful" to the original venue and I am @ the microphone or in the building so to speak. On live recordings the audience is with me,not to mention the performer(s).

I wanted to post this just so others that can't see their way to purchase cutting edge gear designed to mitigate noise,can follow a different path if they choose.

To use a analogy looking at a large landscape the distortion effects the physical object and the noise compresses the total landscape in size. Remove the distortion and the photo snaps into focus. Remove the noise and the landscape is uncompressed and is "life like".

Update 06/11/2014

Increased the EMI pathway and never underestimate the amount of noise in any system. A noiseless system is extraordinary.


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15146-The-Science-of-noise-reduction
 
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RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#44
My "noiseless" system has matured and settled in. I was listening to "A night in San Francisco" with Al Demiola,John Mclaughlin and Paco de Lucia last night and the whirlwind they created with the 3 guitars was reminiscent of listening to a quadraphonic recording. The space was completely holographic including the audience. My brother was at that concert and he commented that it brought back to him many memories of that wonderful concert. Go noiseless and enjoy the best reproduction possible. I have learned to despise the "sweet spot" and a noiseless system says no to the sweet spot.

The one thing that the absence of EMI gives you is the ability to be at the microphone. This ability creates a new spatial reference as distance now becomes measureable in a sense and opens up the ability to hear any ambient que in the recording with extraodinary clarity. It also adds a beautiful quality to the reproduction that is exhilarating to hear.

I use 2 and 4 gauge only now as that is enough to break the noise barrier. Any thing else and you are getting just a glimpse in my experience. I believe this is the only way to rid the electronics of EMI and attain this level of performance.
 
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RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#45
Just logged in to post photos of my new sound room. The only difference is it is much larger and better suited for the psycho acoustics and subwoofers. I used the heaviest wire 10-3 I could pull in for length which was 250 ft total 3 runs 80 ft. The audio circuit includes 4 20 amp 120 volt and 2 240 volt dedicated all individually grounded....no longer do a need a star ground.....hmmm.

Anyway the main satellites are about 9 feet a part and the 2 subs supply plenty of clean articulate base. The 2 psycho circuits enable a soundstage that seems to be 20ft wide....a ton of fun to listen to. Some photos image_4816.jpg image_4815.jpg image_4817.jpg image_4818.jpg
 

Attachments

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#46
Some more photos image_4819.jpg image_4820.jpg image_4821.jpg image_4824.jpg
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#48
Hey! :cool: That left sub is a monster; is it facing its underneath?
The three machines (R2R) look like robots full of knobs.
______

Roger, this is only "flash" humor... :b , nothing else:

LMAO....the mad pscycho acoustic man....

Hey Bob....glad to see you! I use to have my monster sub (2 16 inch Scanspeak woofers) pointed down,but they were never designed that way. Originally this sub one of two were mounted up on the wall in a friends restaurant/bar/disco. I had the cabinet covered in teak and the movers said it weighs about 1100 pounds. They were scared S...less moving it down 15 flights....but they did one heck of a job. I have been burning organ and mighty wurlitzer discs,as the bass is amazing:)

The R2R's are my crowns....I left my Ampexes up stairs for the time being. It is real nice to have all the room.

So nice to hear from you....old soul...my friend:)
Roger
 
Feb 8, 2011
23,534
1,015
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#49
Roger, I was sure surprised when I saw your avatar. So I automatically checked what you're up to. You are one of the original foundation of WBF, a unique audiophile like we all are.
Everyone is important, everything is important. We're all building something sound wise, we're all driven by something...sometime very actively and other times we're observers, learners looking for the next thing.

The people who marked us the most we tell them. I could tell that your left sub is huge. And Tom Waits came to mind; 'I'm big in Japan'

_______

We're like passengers, we pass along, among.


We leave tracks, souvenirs, writings, memories, musical styles.
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#50
Roger, I was sure surprised when I saw your avatar. So I automatically checked what you're up to. You are one of the original foundation of WBF, a unique audiophile like we all are.
Everyone is important, everything is important. We're all building something sound wise, we're all driven by something...sometime very actively and other times we're observers, learners looking for the next thing.

The people who marked us the most we tell them. I could tell that your left sub is huge. And Tom Waits came to mind; 'I'm big in Japan'

_______

We're like passengers, we pass along, among.


We leave tracks, souvenirs, writings, memories, musical styles.
Hi Bob,

That passengers trailer is wild! I like it...

Big in Japan...lol I have seen some systems in Asia that make my sub look like a paper weight. It's good enough though, I might add another Velodyne...the one on the right looks lonely:p

Up,up and away...Rog
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#51
With all the about new equipment racks and how they improve the soundstage greatly. I decided to take it one step further and see the result,if positive or negative. I have one rack that my mono amps and preamp rest on and though the design with spikes allows the micro vibration to be magnified and removed via the coupling to the sub floor. It also stabilises the units and reduces resonance. There was a improvement no doubt as the noise floor was lowered. The rack works great for heavy amplifiers 50lbs and over,but what about dacs,transports,preamps,electronic crossovers that typically weigh under 40 lbs and cannot make a good enough weld to the rack? Well I just added weight to stabilize the enclosure and make the whole structure more rigid. By doing so now the micro vibration created by interference and micro friction in the signal circuits is greatly reduced where by the signal can travel around the outside skin with less friction and vibration.

Well what happened....The Bass which was already stellar became more forceful,focused and produced tremendous energy into the listening room. In fact that is just one of the hallmarks of the improvement(s) that resulted. The Brass now blasted forth with great power,waft,and energy. Highs now shimmered across my ceiling and took on a multi dimensional signature, I could actually look up at it. In fact the whole recording was not only holographic and multi dimensional with great power and gestalt....it was shocking how much more information became revealed even in redbook CD's.

They say you can't unscramble a egg...well you can in audio,as the bottom frequencies muck up the midrange and highs to extent that I never realised. I thought power grounding was a significant step. Now I think the vibration control is pretty darn close to the holy grail. I have always had a "wall of sound" and pretty much just glimpses of multi dimensional reproduction. But with 23 drivers firing at you in perfect phase,now the information unmasked I think must be at the 90 pct range. My volume pot tells me something major has occurred.

I placed some stone and porcelain tiles weighing about 6 to 7 pounds on the preamp,Cd transport,DAC,dual sub amplifier(10lbs)and E. crossover using trimmed sponge cloth underneath.

IMG_0240.JPG IMG_0242.JPG IMG_0248 (3).JPG
 
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RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#52
To my "noiseless" friends out there...this is about as close to the holy grail as you can expect without enhanced stereo. If your speakers are very coherent and become invisible with most classical music,increasing the "weld" at least on my system produced a 3 dimensional soundstage. Do not discount the amount of information that can be recovered in the recording process and then reproduced by a very "noiseless" and coherent system. It is amazing...blown away.

Added about ten pounds to my dual sub amp

IMG_0250 (1).jpg
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,083
222
263
#53
Great stuff...my entire system (every electronic component and the speakers) are one some kind of isolation...and on top over every component i have approximately 250lbs of non-magnetic weight placed on top of HRS/Stillpoints that then sit on top. The Wilsons have Entreq Vibb Eaters on top since the tops are not flat.

For example, the Sub sits on top of 4 Stillpoints Ultra 5s on top of an Auralex subwoofer platform. On top of the sub, we've got 3 Artesania damping plates (16.5 lbs total) and 66 pounds of solid brass weight on top of 3 HRS Nimbus couplers that sit on top of these three plates. Much improved snap, detail...
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#54
Great stuff...my entire system (every electronic component and the speakers) are one some kind of isolation...and on top over every component i have approximately 250lbs of non-magnetic weight placed on top of HRS/Stillpoints that then sit on top. The Wilsons have Entreq Vibb Eaters on top since the tops are not flat.

For example, the Sub sits on top of 4 Stillpoints Ultra 5s on top of an Auralex subwoofer platform. On top of the sub, we've got 3 Artesania damping plates (16.5 lbs total) and 66 pounds of solid brass weight on top of 3 HRS Nimbus couplers that sit on top of these three plates. Much improved snap, detail...
LL21....well then you experience what i do. Yes and it does improve snap and detail @ all levels. I really don't know how much lower my noise floor can go,as I only have my 80lb mono blocks and my 60lb psycho acoustic amp without added weight. For right now I'm going to live with the system for a while and smell the roses....thanks
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,083
222
263
#55
LL21....well then you experience what i do. Yes and it does improve snap and detail @ all levels. I really don't know how much lower my noise floor can go,as I only have my 80lb mono blocks and my 60lb psycho acoustic amp without added weight. For right now I'm going to live with the system for a while and smell the roses....thanks
Enjoy!
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#56
I welded my Velodyne 18 to the sub floor this morning....stock weight just doesn't cut it.

About 90 pounds worth

IMG_0252.JPG IMG_0256 (1).JPG
 
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jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 10, 2012
3,362
29
158
Ireland
#57
It's good to see this focus on system noise, again - well done, Roger. What fascinates me is that there are such widespread & fundamental perceptual differences from what are currently unmeasured changes in the signals.

What I came across some time ago was, to my mind, the explanation for this - research into auditory processing called auditory scene analysis - ASA (this is fundamental to the volume control algorithms in the Dolby link given earlier).

What ASA reinforces is the realisation that the processing aspect is the kernel of our auditory perception. Lots of people admit this but don't actually absorb the implications of this fact, I believe. We actually seldom have enough signal cues to unambiguously create the auditory scene from processing of these signals - rather what we perceive is the scene we are continually adjusting as we journey through the processing of incoming signals. So we are continually faced with unresolved aspects of the scene, some of which get resolved by the next signals being processed & some open up other unresolved aspects. From my understanding, this is the continual moment to moment process occurring & it's not surprising that anything which more quickly resolves this uncertainty relieves this underlying uncertainty. We often resolve it through using our sense of sight - notice how when we close our eyes our sense of surety is reduced

But another aspect, fFor instance, is that processing of signal patterns can expose & reveal more (to our perception) from the signal than listening to the same signals but in unpatterned format - in other words the patterning of the sounds together with our innate auditory models, can reveal aspects in the sound that we wouldn't normally hear. In other words we are continually creating an auditory scene from the perceived patterns & other aspects of the signal stream. Hence, in explanation for the above low level noise phenomena, small changes in aspects of these patterns can change an auditory scene in fundamental & core areas. A lot of times these are the "night & day" differences that are often reported in listening.

So how might this low level noise result in such fundamental perceptual differences? This noise is not a separate perceptual layer of noise, like tape hiss or groove noise - it's not present when there's no signal. It is intertwined with the signal & therefore not perceptually separable into a different auditory stream, as in tape hiss. My hunch is that it affects how we perceive the attack portion or risetime of a signal - this is a hugely important part of the signal for our perception - the A of ADSR signal envelope. It is this part of the signal that is heard first & determines the spatial, timbral & other important characteristics of the sound.

IMO, better formation of this risetime signal from silent to maximum energy not only locates the start of this signal in time more accurately but also portrays the energy profile of this attack portion more accurately.

Although ASA is a very interesting area of research into auditory processing, it is still trying to tease out the basics of it's operation. Since reading my way into ASA I've come to realise that what we are often experiencing & describing in this hobby is not yet the concern of ASA - they are still working out (& making great headway) in teasing out the fundamental operation of what is a pretty complex sense.
 
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LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,083
222
263
#58
I welded my Velodyne 18 to the sub floor this morning....stock weight just doesn't cut it.

About 90 pounds worth

View attachment 29990
You're AWESOME! Funny...i literally just moved ANOTHER Artesania damper on top of the Velodyne and found it STILL helped (darnit!)...so i figured if i can find another Artesania damper to keep there permanently (i had temporarily moved it from another component)...and then put another 10kg on it, that would get me from 88lbs to around 115lbs which, as you have just found, makes a big difference.

For some reason, i did not remember that you had a Velodyne 18" as well. Enjoy!
 

es347

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,572
4
38
Midwest fly over state..
#59
I welded my Velodyne 18 to the sub floor this morning....stock weight just doesn't cut it.

About 90 pounds worth

View attachment 29990
..I've added 30# to each of my Velodyne Optimum 12s and there's no doubt it tightened the bass
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,563
152
240
BiggestLittleCity
#60
It's good to see this focus on system noise, again - well done, Roger. What fascinates me is that there are such widespread & fundamental perceptual differences from what are currently unmeasured changes in the signals.

What I came across some time ago was, to my mind, the explanation for this - research into auditory processing called auditory scene analysis - ASA (this is fundamental to the volume control algorithms in the Dolby link given earlier).

What ASA reinforces is the realisation that the processing aspect is the kernel of our auditory perception. Lots of people admit this but don't actually absorb the implications of this fact, I believe. We actually seldom have enough signal cues to unambiguously create the auditory scene from processing of these signals - rather what we perceive is the scene we are continually adjusting as we journey through the processing of incoming signals. So we are continually faced with unresolved aspects of the scene, some of which get resolved by the next signals being processed & some open up other unresolved aspects. From my understanding, this is the continual moment to moment process occurring & it's not surprising that anything which more quickly resolves this uncertainty relieves this underlying uncertainty. We often resolve it through using our sense of sight - notice how when we close our eyes our sense of surety is reduced

But another aspect, fFor instance, is that processing of signal patterns can expose & reveal more (to our perception) from the signal than listening to the same signals but in unpatterned format - in other words the patterning of the sounds together with our innate auditory models, can reveal aspects in the sound that we wouldn't normally hear. In other words we are continually creating an auditory scene from the perceived patterns & other aspects of the signal stream. Hence, in explanation for the above low level noise phenomena, small changes in aspects of these patterns can change an auditory scene in fundamental & core areas. A lot of times these are the "night & day" differences that are often reported in listening.

So how might this low level noise result in such fundamental perceptual differences? This noise is not a separate perceptual layer of noise, like tape hiss or groove noise - it's not present when there's no signal. It is intertwined with the signal & therefore not perceptually separable into a different auditory stream, as in tape hiss. My hunch is that it affects how we perceive the attack portion or risetime of a signal - this is a hugely important part of the signal for our perception - the A of ADSR signal envelope. It is this part of the signal that is heard first & determines the spatial, timbral & other important characteristics of the sound.

IMO, better formation of this risetime signal from silent to maximum energy not only locates the start of this signal in time more accurately but also portrays the energy profile of this attack portion more accurately.

Although ASA is a very interesting area of research into auditory processing, it is still trying to tease out the basics of it's operation. Since reading my way into ASA I've come to realise that what we are often experiencing & describing in this hobby is not yet the concern of ASA - they are still working out (& making great headway) in teasing out the fundamental operation of what is a pretty complex sense.
You're AWESOME! Funny...i literally just moved ANOTHER Artesania damper on top of the Velodyne and found it STILL helped (darnit!)...so i figured if i can find another Artesania damper to keep there permanently (i had temporarily moved it from another component)...and then put another 10kg on it, that would get me from 88lbs to around 115lbs which, as you have just found, makes a big difference.

For some reason, i did not remember that you had a Velodyne 18" as well. Enjoy!
..I've added 30# to each of my Velodyne Optimum 12s and there's no doubt it tightened the bass
Guys,

Even with the vel spiked to the subfloor I had to turn the volume down to almost zilch. Now at least I can turn it up without any boom,even though I would say it's only 1 1/2 clicks above off. My other dual sub is 1200 pounds w/2 16's,I think this Vel is 100 pounds soaking wet...so almost doubling the weight really made a difference..

jkeny...I'll reply soon....thanks!
 

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