My 2 channel experiment

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
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BiggestLittleCity
#1
I thought I would take a picture of what I see from my spot on the couch while listening. Even though I moved into a condo which is much smaller than my last place, I still enjoy my music.

Currently running all solid state, although I do plan on upgrading my tube amps and using them someday in the system.

The two tall speakers are the satellites, the small speakers handle the psychoacoustics and the big box is the stereo subwoofer.

It's a good thing that the system sounds extremely well at low levels, because when I turn it up it can be very dynamic as you might guess.

Roger D.





 
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JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,350
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Manila, Philippines
#2
Hi Roger,

Very intriguing! Could you explain the use of the small speakers?

TIA

Jack
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
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BiggestLittleCity
#3
Hi Roger,

Very intriguing! Could you explain the use of the small speakers?

TIA

Jack
Hi Jack,

The small speakers are FMI Fulton little maestros just for the record, great small speakers. I use those for my psychoacoustics circuit that a audio engineer friend designed for me back in the early eighties.

It is a black box with 4 connectors, they are marked "main" and "psycho" . I currently run a dedicated stereo amplifier to the "main" side. Originaly I did power the circuit off my satellites, which worked well, but i was concerned with the impedance so I switched to the dedicated amplifier.

I am not really a techinical person so my explanation of what the circuit achieves will just be what I hear. First off, it is really addictive,because it enhances those things that make the music sound "live". It is not exaggerated in any way though, but the highs,midrange, and upper bass are amplified slightly,along with what sounds to me like mostly "spatial ques" that one would associate with live music. The simplist way to replicate what it sounds like is to cup your hands behind your ears when listening. But doing that is not as subtle as what this circuit does. A very panoramic soundstage is produced with great depth and layering.

If the information is in the recording you will hear it. A great recording is clearly evident ,on the flip side a bad recording is certainly revealed for what it is.

IIRC my engineer friend said that it corrects the faults of the room by correcting the time domain aspect.

I did not use the circuit for a long time as this system was stored at my dad's place for quite a while. About 2 years ago I finally moved this equipment into my condo and a week ago I put the psycho circuit back in the loop. I always felt something was missing and I was right, the circuit to my ears makes that much of a difference.

Roger

Speakers: ParAcas Satellites
Subwoofer: ParAcas stereo dual 16" drivers w/custom ParAcas crossover
Tape Subwoofer: Velodyne 18
Preamp: Accuphase C200 main control preamp / Ampex 350's as slave line preamp(tube) and Ampex 440B as a slave line also. Will be adding a Ampex MR70 Nuvistor preamp soon.
Main Amplifiers: Agtron Platinum Model One mono blocks
VAC 140 300B mono blocks
Psycho: Fulton speakers,Mission speakers:amplifier: Accuphase P300
Sub amp: Accuphase P300
Cables: NBS,Nirvana digital,Acoustic Zen
DAC: Monarchy NM24 modded
Transport: Sony ES9000
Tape: Ampex,Crown,Studer
Vinyl: Linn Sondek/Grace, Technics
Tuner: McIntosh MR 78
Psychacoustics Circuit: Custom by Carl Staub

RTR's

Crown CX824 restored
Crown CX844 restored
Crown CX844 NOS

Ampex AG440C/B 2T4TPB restored DC servo multi speed custom record / playback electronics
Ampex 350-2/351 AG440C transport for 2T4T Playback only DC servo multi speed custom playback electronics
Ampex MR70 2T 1/4 inch deck custom electronics and transport (main slave preamp for DAC,Tuner,Phono)
Ampex MR70 3T 1/2 inch deck 15-30 ips Master Recorder 4020236-19 adjustable
Ampex MR70 4T 1/2 inch Master Recorder 4020236-21 adjustable
Ampex MR70 2T 1/2 inch deck w/ME heads, custom electronics and transport
Ampex MR70 2T 1/2 inch deck Tim Deparavicini headstack w/triad input transformers "The Jack Mullin Special"
Ampex MR70 2T 1/4 inch w/ME heads and 1/4 inch full track headstack 4020236-15 adjustable

Studer C37 1/4 inch 2 track with new butterfly head stack & new NAB headstack U.S. version. 1 of 6 imported by Gotham Audio,NY,NY
Custom electronics

"What I remember was an English translation by Gotham Audio who distributed the C-37 in the US. They were very unusual. We had 4 at Motown and RCA had a few but I never heard of anybody else other than people who bought them second-hand from us or RCA." Bob Ohlsson

IC's Gepco X Band low impedance double shielded cable. I use it on all my long run IC's (RTR's and Subs).


Power: 4 dedicated lines installed with Cryoed Hubbel hospital grade outlets. Voltage is 126.7 and all are in phase

Tweaks: Added snap on ferrites to my Nirvana SPDIF cable, my digital sound was good,but now I would say that it gives my analog sources a run for their money,simply a jaw dropper.

03/23/2012 I removed all the snap on ferrites sans the digital cable. I wanted to see what the system sounded like with the nuvistor preamp in place. Not much changed except the highs are more extended. I will keep replacing the last two cables with Gepco X quad double braid cable as it sounds very good,neutral,and nuanced. The ferrite experiment is ended and while it seems to increase focus there are tradeoffs,they will remain off.

NBS Cable: Speaker...Master IV,DAC and Crossover PRO IV, Ampex 440 and tuner Master IV, Preamp to Amplifiers and Ampex MR70 Statement Original : PC's Statement and Master Originals

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2nd System

I and my brother am going to build a 2nd system with the equipment I have left over from collecting for several years. My brother has always wanted a horn based system,so what we have learned will go into this system.

Speakers: JBL 5732 horn loaded system or Klipsch KPT-MCM-4-T Grand or KPT-Jubilee 535

Amplifiers: VAC Rennaissance 140 monoblocks and VAC 70/70 300B driven,class A
Preamp Ampex MR70 version 2.1 coupled with Accuphase C200 control amplifier
Digital: Monarchy NM24
Tape: Ampex MR70 1/4 inch 2 track and Ampex 440C 1/2 inch 2 track with custom electronics
2 CX844 Crown 4 channel w/ marantz 4400 and 2 pair FMI 100 Speakers
CX824 Crown 1/4 inch 4 track deck
Phono: Audio Note L3 preamp with Pioneer turntable
Cables: Gepco IC's and speaker cable
Psychoacoustics: Custom circuit,speakers FMI 80's 2 pair with Accuphase P300 amplifier....custom
 
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RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#4
I have the system fully operational now with the psycho speakers mounted up above the satellite speakers. I also placed the Velodyne 18 behind the couch where I sit,so now I have the stereo sub with the Velodyne. The Accuphase P300 upgraded with blackgate and Mundorf caps sounds wonderful driving the little Fultons. I should have my other P300 done soon so I can switch out the Parasound amp out of the system. A complete wall of sound would be a good way to describe what I hear now. Until I get my Ampex 350's back I am now 100 pct solid state. The VAC 140's are on the back burner as quality 300B's are hard to find plus their prices have shot up like everything else.

Bottom line is the system sounds wonderful and I am happy about that.

Oops I forgot about the tube DAC.

 
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RBFC

WBF Founding Member & Super Moderator
Apr 20, 2010
5,129
12
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Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
#5
Sounds like a crosstalk cancellation scheme! Instead of doing it in the electronics and adding the anti-phase signal to each channel, you play that signal from a separate pair of speakers? Maybe a good guess?

Lee
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#6
Sounds like a crosstalk cancellation scheme! Instead of doing it in the electronics and adding the anti-phase signal to each channel, you play that signal from a separate pair of speakers? Maybe a good guess?

Lee
Hi Lee,

I am not positive about that, it's been 30 years since Carl designied the circuit for me,but after reading this paper on the subject,it fits nicely. I listened last night with and without the circuit in the loop and regular stereo sounds like mono. With the psycho's running it sounds like stereo on steriods. I played a diana krall cut of a Playboy after dark cd and the piano is reproduced to my ear about as perfect as I have heard one. The decay and natural reverb add a lot of realism. When we set this up originally in my other house in the 1980's the speakers were mounted on the wall up above the main speakers just as I have them now. Listening now I am amazed at how much info the psychos produce

Thanks for the reply.

Roger

Crosstalk cancellation paper / link

http://www.ibink.com/tnufire/docs/XTalkCancelation.pdf
 
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RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#7
Lee, just wanted to share a couple of observations about the psycho's from yesterday. My dad was over and I was spinning a Anna Caram Chesky disc. Dad sat down on the couch and was listening. The cut had some Brazilian instruments and my dad turned to me and said "what was that?" thinking that the sound was "live" and I answered, that was the music,he replied, "what fidelity". I just laughed.

My brother,keeps asking me if the psycho's are in fact playing,because he can't "obviously" hear them,as they are completely intergrated into the sound field. I know what to listen for,so I tell him "yes they are",he is unconvinced still. Funny stuff,but as a audiophile I love it.

regards,

Roger
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
9,483
5
0
#8
Roger-With my calibrated eyeballs, I can tell that you have your left speaker towed in way more than your right speaker. Any reason for this?
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#9
Roger-With my calibrated eyeballs, I can tell that you have your left speaker towed in way more than your right speaker. Any reason for this?
Hi mep, it's a work in progress,lol.
 

Gary D

New Member
Jun 26, 2011
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1
0
#10
It's time for a update as I have 2 of my Ampex decks up and running. The one great thing I like about my Accuphase C200 preamp is I can run 3 decks using this preamp. That enables me to listen to their electronics with my DAC being the source or if I want the tuner or phono. I actually have 4 different preamps with this system.

That's why I upgrade these tape electronics with the best components I can afford. The Ampex 350's do give me a tube preamp option now. When I get the upgraded record cards back I can then use the 440 electronics as a alternate preamp. Same for my MR70 and Studer A820 as the Accuphase has a straight thru tape circuit. I look foward to doing several ABX tests to see which one betters the other,but they all sound excellent just different.

I have been without my Accuphase P300 amplifier for the last 2 months that runs my psychoacoustic speakers. I should have that back in the loop soon.

p.s. oops was on Gary's logon,this was written by me (Roger).

 
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tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 22, 2010
627
2
18
Whitby Ontario Canada
#12
Roger
No wonder you don't show up everyday like before, because you are resetting your system, may I give you some ideas in here, I guess you do like the C200 very much, and I also believe that a good line stage is better than without like direct from source to power amp, what is a quality line stage ? better volume control is the first issue, steps type with good switch not the slicing carbon, second, less contacts, direct plug in without selector switch ( maybe not too convenience for you to ABX but will sound better). last, simple tube circuit ( volume + single triode + transformer with 600 ohm out put) can beat any SS type.
amp in sub should use the same type of the the main, all SS or all tubes ( all SE or all PP ) no mix will sound more clean.
350 + good recorded tape can provide almost the best source, only change a bit of the rest system will bring a big change in the total
enjoy
tony ma
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#13
Roger
No wonder you don't show up everyday like before, because you are resetting your system,
enjoy
tony ma
Hi Tony,

You have hit the bullseye!
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#14
After many many hours(1000 hrs) on my Ampex 350's I now use these as my main signal preamps. No doubt it is a rare configuration as I'm using my Accuphase solid state preamp's tape monitor to listen to the Ampex preamps,only using the volume and source switch.

I just can't get past the sound that the octal based preamp delivers,very transparent,with a realistic quality that puts me in the music.

I also like the ability to adjust the gain using the Ampex and the Accuphase.

After I finish the recap on my Studer A820 and finish my Ampex MR70 I'm done with tape as I probably will have to my ears some of the best sound I have heard.

I don't think there are many octal tube based preamps,the only recent one I have seen is a German design,Valvet I believe. Valvet uses Mundorf caps also and has had good reviews.





 
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mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,514
3
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Pukalani, HI
#15
I don't think there are many octal tube based preamps,the only recent one I have seen is a German design,Valvet I believe. Valvet uses Mundorf caps also and has had good reviews.
Many people feel that no miniature triode based preamp captures the "soul" of the music quite like a well designed octal tube preamp.

I owned three different models of the MFA octal Lumincence preamps including the three chassis Venusian.

Phono section uses 4-5691; 2-6EM7 for 44 db of gain.
Line section uses 2-6SN7(5692); 2-6DN7 for 28 db of gain.

The last of the octals was the Luminescence C, which was built in Dec. 1990.

Supratek is still building preamps that use octal tubes.

http://www.supratek.biz/preamp.php
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,350
295
83
Manila, Philippines
#16
I believe Rogue makes one and then there's the deHavilland Ultraverve. Valvet has a new octal preamp for the Block line called the Soulshine8 (4 x 6sn7) which it makes alongside the Soulshine (2 x 12au7 + 2 x 12bh7). VTV also made one using just a pair of 6sn7s and a 5ar4 rectifier IIRC. True Roger. There doesn't seem to be many out there at all. Much more common as driver tubes in amplifiers.
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#17
Many people feel that no miniature triode based preamp captures the "soul" of the music quite like a well designed octal tube preamp.

I owned three different models of the MFA octal Lumincence preamps including the three chassis Venusian.

Phono section uses 4-5691; 2-6EM7 for 44 db of gain.
Line section uses 2-6SN7(5692); 2-6DN7 for 28 db of gain.

The last of the octals was the Luminescence C, which was built in Dec. 1990.

Supratek is still building preamps that use octal tubes.

http://www.supratek.biz/preamp.php
I believe Rogue makes one and then there's the deHavilland Ultraverve. Valvet has a new octal preamp for the Block line called the Soulshine8 (4 x 6sn7) which it makes alongside the Soulshine (2 x 12au7 + 2 x 12bh7). VTV also made one using just a pair of 6sn7s and a 5ar4 rectifier IIRC. True Roger. There doesn't seem to be many out there at all. Much more common as driver tubes in amplifiers.
Dan,

This is really my first encounter with octal tubes in a preamp. My VAC amps use a 6sn7 as a driver tube and the CV1988 Brimar sounds wonderful. I now use that same tube in the Ampex and also 6F6,12sj7,6J5 also. I have just never heard such all around tonality and transparency. No doubt the film caps and Mundorfs have made a difference. I have had 9 pin preamps but these octals bowl me over. I have heard a lot about the Luminescence since I have been reading up on the octal preamps,they have a great reputation. Maybe someday I will hear one.

Jack,

Not many,the Soulshine8 caught my eye. I have a set of Aikido octal boards maybe someday I'll put together a DIY preamp.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,350
295
83
Manila, Philippines
#18
Yup, octals typically have big tone. Run of the mill 6sn7s I find rolled off up top but there are quite a few that I feel are well extended like the Tungsol GTBs. It's always hard to generalize about the sound of particular tubes though because the circuit they are in and the parts employed play a huge part. We can't here what a tube sounds like on its own right? It's gotta be in an operating device and that device has to be in an operating system. I owned a pair of CV1988s a long time ago. I bought them and felt underwhelmed. When I had them tested it turned out I had unknowingly bought a weak pair that was quite unbalanced. Well, that explained it.:(
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#19
Yup, octals typically have big tone. Run of the mill 6sn7s I find rolled off up top but there are quite a few that I feel are well extended like the Tungsol GTBs. It's always hard to generalize about the sound of particular tubes though because the circuit they are in and the parts employed play a huge part. We can't here what a tube sounds like on its own right? It's gotta be in an operating device and that device has to be in an operating system. I owned a pair of CV1988s a long time ago. I bought them and felt underwhelmed. When I had them tested it turned out I had unknowingly bought a weak pair that was quite unbalanced. Well, that explained it.:(
no doubt the circuit and parts do make a difference,with the big tone,also the iron fisted control and power is what really impresses me. The iron fist in a velvet glove comes to mind. Amplifiers are supposed to have that kind of impact on speakers,to hear it in a preamp,that's pretty good.

I think I'm hooked on octals.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,350
295
83
Manila, Philippines
#20
Can't say I blame you Roger. I'm babysitting a Soulshine8 here but I never took it out of the box. They shipped with Full Music 6sn7s I think. If ever, it will be my first time to hear Full Musics. Maybe I'll hook it up and compare them with the Soulshine. The Soulshine has that iron fisted thing going too since the second stage is built around 12bh7s. It should be interesting. Want me to snap some pics?
 

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