Music Appreciation USA vs. Europe

[caesar]

I find it interesting that you don't say "We have learned how to maximise prosperity" or "We have learned to ensure economic stability". Or even "We have learned how to maximise happiness". You adopt the economist's mantra that economics is all about growth, whereas I think most people in the street would naively go for something like my three alternatives. The problem is, that the system as it is cannot function without growth. Growth is not a nice-to-have; it is essential, not for maximising happiness or prosperity, merely to stave off collapse. An assumption of perpetual growth is baked into the system from top to bottom and if, for any reason, that growth stops, the system collapses.

Those are your words, not mine, even if you put them in quotes. As I said in several posts, above, economic growth is vital for the high end audio hobby to survive.

 

[caesar]

Whilst there's a lot of truth in your economic points, you omitted some vital aspects because you're blind to them. This sentence demonstrates probably the most important of those aspects - complacency. The average American is way more delusioinal about the prospects of their once great nation than the rank and file European. In Europe the bulk of the problems have arisen from the adoption of the single currency which is an experiment just over a decade old. USA's problems run much deeper as they've been extant longer, even though its true to say (as you've pointed out) that USA has had great 'vibrancy' in terms of the business climate.

Yes, the Euro is a huge problem. But from an economic standpoint, what I said above is much more important for growth: "The main factors that determine economic growth are as follows, and US has a huge advantage over europe in these: taxes are lower, population is pretty much at replacement rate, unions are less pernicious, retirement age is higher, welfare benefits are more tame, US has a more entrepreneurial culture that drives innovation and new business formation, etc."

But we getting way off topic here...

 

[opus111]

Yes, the Euro is a huge problem.

Indeed, but its fixable, once the 'we must remain in the Euro at all costs' meme is eradicated amongst the ruling elites.

But from an economic standpoint, what I said above is much more important for growth:

Yes, you're repeating yourself and citing points I've not disagreed with but ignoring the elephant in the room. Which is more grist to the mill of my argument which is that the greatest problems States-side are those you're totally unaware of.

 

[Groucho]

Those are your words, not mine, even if you put them in quotes.

I didn't suggest otherwise, did I? I said

I find it interesting that you don't say...

The quotes are used to separate the hypothetical quotations from the main text. I believe it is a commonly-used literary device.

But anyway I can see my words have fallen on a particularly stoney bit of barren ground, so I'll leave it there!

 

[caesar]

I didn't suggest otherwise, did I? I said



The quotes are used to separate the hypothetical quotations from the main text. I believe it is a commonly-used literary device.

But anyway I can see my words have fallen on a particularly stoney bit of barren ground, so I'll leave it there!

I agree. And the reason is that this is a high end audio board, and as fascinating as those other points to discuss - economic explanations vs. predictions, growth vs. happiness, etc. I would prefer to focus on the economic issues that directly impact out hobby.

 

[dallasjustice]

How many distinct forms of music originated in Europe over the last 2000 years? How many forms of music originated in the USA over the last 250 years? America is about multi-culturalism. That's what Dvorak observed when he wrote Symohony number 9.

Having read the TAS screed, I am dumber now.

 

[JackD201]

I wouldn't call European culture homogenized.

 

[cpp]

I agree with you. In the US, anyone can walk into a public library, get on the library computer with a cheap,plastic, borrowed set of headphones get access to a seemingly unlimited library of music. But the high end audio hobby is different. It's a different experience. Let me reiterate what I said above:

"Why is it important for our hobby? Let’s face it. No one needs a high end system. Many like high end systems. Many LUST after high end systems, because of the experience they provide. But a cheap set of headphones sold on a plane by the flight attendants (before ipad/ iphone revolution) just a few years can get us off on the music. Without a faster growing economy and resulting higher wages, fewer Europeans will be able to partake in this expensive hobby."


To make music sound more real takes engineering skills, room acoustics knowledge, and investment. Those aren't cheap. People will always enjoy music. But without growth, people will not have the income growth to partake in the hobby.

Maybe you seem to overlook a big factor. And that's today's youth who might not want to partake in spending a huge some of their income on "High END Audio". They are enjoying their music using ear buds and iPods and these little boxes that set on their counters in their dwelling with built in speakers or using a simple AVR with a ipod connection, maybe this is all they want while downloading their music from iTunes or Amazon. Its not economics it's wants verses actual need. And I just don't see these masses of young people diving into highend systems ( hence the big decline in high end audio stores) These kids are different than a lot of us older "audiophiles", they enjoy being mobile and not a person who wants to spend their days connected to a high end audio system setting in a chair looking into the speaker visualizing the notes being picked on a guitar. The growth is limited to the older crowd and it's dying (actual) as well as we get older. Technology gives these kids mobility and they will choose that over a high dollar audio system. When I was in Great Britain, Germany and Spain last year, it appears everyone was walking around with ipods devices, taking pictures with their cell phones, listen to music on the corners and in parks so economy , nope don't buy it as vendors are selling ipods, cell phones, ears buds at cheap rates that allows everyone to enjoy their mobility and that means hi-rez downloads played through cheap earphones or ear buds or box speakers in their home or apartment.

 

[jazdoc]

Maybe you seem to overlook a big factor. And that's today's youth who might not want to partake in spending a huge some of their income on "High END Audio". They are enjoying their music using ear buds and iPods and these little boxes that set on their counters in their dwelling with built in speakers or using a simple AVR with a ipod connection, maybe this is all they want while downloading their music from iTunes or Amazon. Its not economics it's wants verses actual need. And I just don't see these masses of young people diving into highend systems ( hence the big decline in high end audio stores) These kids are different than a lot of us older "audiophiles", they enjoy being mobile and not a person who wants to spend their days connected to a high end audio system setting in a chair looking into the speaker visualizing the notes being picked on a guitar. The growth is limited to the older crowd and it's dying (actual) as well as we get older. Technology gives these kids mobility and they will choose that over a high dollar audio system. When I was in Great Britain, Germany and Spain last year, it appears everyone was walking around with ipods devices, taking pictures with their cell phones, listen to music on the corners and in parks so economy , nope don't buy it as vendors are selling ipods, cell phones, ears buds at cheap rates that allows everyone to enjoy their mobility and that means hi-rez downloads played through cheap earphones or ear buds or box speakers in their home or apartment.

Part of the long-term problem for high end audio in Europe is that the continent is graying with contracting native populations. Europe is simply not producing enough babies to maintain its population and ultimately, preserve its glorious culture. Just this week, Germany revised its population downward by 2%. Does not bode well for high end audio, but that is the least of Europe's problems...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Birth Rate: Country Comparison (accurate as of January 1, 2012)

 

[caesar]

How many distinct forms of music originated in Europe over the last 2000 years? How many forms of music originated in the USA over the last 250 years? America is about multi-culturalism. That's what Dvorak observed when he wrote Symohony number 9.

Great point! Magic things happen when people of diverse backgrounds and experiences come together.

 

[caesar]

Maybe you seem to overlook a big factor. And that's today's youth who might not want to partake in spending a huge some of their income on "High END Audio". They are enjoying their music using ear buds and iPods and these little boxes that set on their counters in their dwelling with built in speakers or using a simple AVR with a ipod connection, maybe this is all they want while downloading their music from iTunes or Amazon. Its not economics it's wants verses actual need. And I just don't see these masses of young people diving into highend systems ( hence the big decline in high end audio stores) These kids are different than a lot of us older "audiophiles", they enjoy being mobile and not a person who wants to spend their days connected to a high end audio system setting in a chair looking into the speaker visualizing the notes being picked on a guitar. The growth is limited to the older crowd and it's dying (actual) as well as we get older. Technology gives these kids mobility and they will choose that over a high dollar audio system. When I was in Great Britain, Germany and Spain last year, it appears everyone was walking around with ipods devices, taking pictures with their cell phones, listen to music on the corners and in parks so economy , nope don't buy it as vendors are selling ipods, cell phones, ears buds at cheap rates that allows everyone to enjoy their mobility and that means hi-rez downloads played through cheap earphones or ear buds or box speakers in their home or apartment.

What you are talking about is the new paradigm of consuming music, but not high end audio. Let's look at music reproduction and high end audio from a 50,000 foot level and a different perspective.

People are fascinated with innovation, and rightly so. But by innovation they mean technology innovation that result in radical breakthroughs ... But looking at things from a broader perspective , in terms of culture, psychology, emotions, and sociology standpoint- along with the technological changes, people don't buy products, but they buy meanings and "why's" behind the products, functions that give a purpose and a sense of meaning - features be damned. In many cases, customers have not communicated these "market needs" but instead were waiting all along for someone to create the product.

But there has been very little purposeful innovation of meanings on part of businesses and individuals. Looking at changes in meanings, however, shows that they do change , even radically. Look at Whole Foods Market, a super-market which changed the meaning of nutrition from thinking of some super skinny, self- denying bit h, shopping for fish oil pills and vitamins in a small, run -down strip mall store to an experience of shopping in a beautiful store and enjoying healthy and delicious food. In our hobby, of course , Apple is the famous for its innovations. Apple understood that the home TV and stereo system was no longer the "fireplace" in the household. As you say, the world changed and people did not sit around the house. Instead they are busy and mobile, constantly multitasking and getting entertained, whether sitting on the can in some train station or walking down the street. Prior to the move to the mobile society, Bang Olufsen, a GREAT European company, was the primary innovator of meanings in our hobby. They saw an opportunity to innovate the meaning of the hi fidelity system in the home as one of big ugly boxes of electronics and huge speakers taking up precious living space to sleek modern furniture that enhanced once life visually and (somewhat - to us snobs) aurally, as people sat next to their new "fireplace" and relaxed. Of course, now people listen to mp3 format and experience music in ways that allows people to buy, share, produce, etc., via mobile devices and computers.

In the ultra high end corner of the hifi hobby, the main innovation in meanings came from the audio magazines. Gordon Holt invented the concept of subjective listening of Hifi gear and created an audiophile vocabulary to discuss these subjective differences. Harry Pearson's innovation was that Hifi should sound like real music. Interestingly, the guy who took over his job, intellectually, Jon Valin, tried changing Pearson’s innovation from reproduction of a concert in the home to Hifi being a clean, cold, precise instrument. To some, for sure, high end audio is about this, for sure. For most of us, however, great audio is visceral. Like real music, it moves people and invokes their innermost feelings and emotions. But then, start your own magazine to cater to that analytic thinking about music, and don't ruin a great thing! So I find it kind of odd that a TAS author, out of all people is whining about the death of hi end audio in the USA.

 

[cpp]

What you are talking about is the new paradigm of consuming music, but not high end audio. Let's look at music reproduction and high end audio from a 50,000 foot level and a different perspective.

People are fascinated with innovation, and rightly so. But by innovation they mean technology innovation that result in radical breakthroughs ... But looking at things from a broader perspective , in terms of culture, psychology, emotions, and sociology standpoint- along with the technological changes, people don't buy products, but they buy meanings and "why's" behind the products, functions that give a purpose and a sense of meaning - features be damned. In many cases, customers have not communicated these "market needs" but instead were waiting all along for someone to create the product.

But there has been very little purposeful innovation of meanings on part of businesses and individuals. Looking at changes in meanings, however, shows that they do change , even radically. Look at Whole Foods Market, a super-market which changed the meaning of nutrition from thinking of some super skinny, self- denying bit h, shopping for fish oil pills and vitamins in a small, run -down strip mall store to an experience of shopping in a beautiful store and enjoying healthy and delicious food. In our hobby, of course , Apple is the famous for its innovations. Apple understood that the home TV and stereo system was no longer the "fireplace" in the household. As you say, the world changed and people did not sit around the house. Instead they are busy and mobile, constantly multitasking and getting entertained, whether sitting on the can in some train station or walking down the street. Prior to the move to the mobile society, Bang Olufsen, a GREAT European company, was the primary innovator of meanings in our hobby. They saw an opportunity to innovate the meaning of the hi fidelity system in the home as one of big ugly boxes of electronics and huge speakers taking up precious living space to sleek modern furniture that enhanced once life visually and (somewhat - to us snobs) aurally, as people sat next to their new "fireplace" and relaxed. Of course, now people listen to mp3 format and experience music in ways that allows people to buy, share, produce, etc., via mobile devices and computers.

In the ultra high end corner of the hifi hobby, the main innovation in meanings came from the audio magazines. Gordon Holt invented the concept of subjective listening of Hifi gear and created an audiophile vocabulary to discuss these subjective differences. Harry Pearson's innovation was that Hifi should sound like real music. Interestingly, the guy who took over his job, intellectually, Jon Valin, tried changing Pearson’s innovation from reproduction of a concert in the home to Hifi being a clean, cold, precise instrument. To some, for sure, high end audio is about this, for sure. For most of us, however, great audio is visceral. Like real music, it moves people and invokes their innermost feelings and emotions. But then, start your own magazine to cater to that analytic thinking about music, and don't ruin a great thing! So I find it kind of odd that a TAS author, out of all people is whining about the death of hi end audio in the USA.

Don't have a clue what you wrote... Anyway, people listen to real music at live events and go back to their homes and download the song via iTunes, boy if that's highend audio we got a problem..Holt, Pearson it doesn't matter times have changed and the masses are driving those changes day by day.