MSB Premier or Lampi Pacific

Golum

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I don’t think it is a case of winning or losing. Steve prefers the sound of the Pacific to the Select and that is fine. Steve’s system has many tubes and he prefers the tube sound. He prefers the Lampi sound as do most of the Lampi owners on this thread. Again, this is fine.

I had the opportunity to listen to the Pacific DAC on several occasions and it is a really fine sounding DAC. But I prefer the sound of the Select DAC by a substantial margin. It just sounds more lifelike to my ears. The best way I can describe it is that it sounds like master reel to reel tape. I have not listened to another digital source that makes me feel this way. Consequently, I voted with my wallet and purchased a fully loaded Select DAC. I’m not saying the Select is better than the Pacific, only that I prefer its sound. That’s the beauty of this hobby, we get to choose the components that please our ears the most.

Ken
Hi Ken;

I would not agree with you regarding winning and loosing as for each manufacturer having one more customer is a win and for one less is a loose - like in every sport and you as a sportsman and a climber know that.
All the rest you wrote I'm fully on board and each should judge by their own ears, looks, cost, whatever the reason for purchase might be.
As you made a decision to go for your DAC I made exactly the same decision as I heard both DACs in many systems and occasions and myself preferred the Pac sound signature by nice margin vs the Select and that's what I got.
But in general who cares - I love Lampi, you love Select and it should be like that. We all should enjoy what they offer to us as state of the art DACs in our living rooms.

Take care during these times.

Cheers;
G
 
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bonzo75

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I agree, audio is a contact sport. Even hunger games seems a cakewalk at times
 

Alpinist

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Hi Ken;

I would not agree with you regarding winning and loosing as for each manufacturer having one more customer is a win and for one less is a loose - like in every sport and you as a sportsman and a climber know that.
All the rest you wrote I'm fully on board and each should judge by their own ears, looks, cost, whatever the reason for purchase might be.
As you made a decision to go for your DAC I made exactly the same decision as I heard both DACs in many systems and occasions and myself preferred the Pac sound signature by nice margin vs the Select and that's what I got.
But in general who cares - I love Lampi, you love Select and it should be like that. We all should enjoy what they offer to us as state of the art DACs in our living rooms.

Take care during these times.

Cheers;
G

Hi Golum,

I agree with you that for a manufacturer, a sale is a win and no sale is a loss. In mountaineering, a summit is a win as long as you get down safely. No summit is not always a loss if you had a great time climbing. For an audiophile, a win is when you get the sound you’re looking for, to the point that you forget about the system and become immersed in the music. Looks like we both have a win on the audio front.

Best,
Ken
 

marty

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Could owners of Lampi and MSB describe what it is specifically that convinced them to choose one brand over the other?

Peter, for me, the significant observation that was a game changer was the reproduction of the "action" of the piano keyboard. Technically the term action refers to the mechanical assembly which translates the depression of the keys into rapid motion of a hammer which strikes the strings. But its reference here is more about how the Lampi conveys that feature inherent in the playing of a piano in comparison to any other DAC I've heard including MSB. The piano's "action" is a living, breathing thing. It's tonal variations and gradations of dynamics over 7 octaves is what gives the piano it's life. The delicacy and thunder rendered by a Steinway D is integral to the way it's played by a given pianist. There's an immediacy and naturalness to the action captured by great recordings that, for me, is unequalled when reproduced by a Lampi. It's as if other DACs are trying to put a round peg in a square hole as far as capturing that action.

It's not unlike the sort of difference some might describe when comparing digital to analog. Most would agree that analog gets us closer to the musical "truth" in that regard. Why? Honestly, there's a lot of potential reasons but the truth is I don't know or even understand all of them technically. But I understand there's often a difference that can be distinguished sonically. I would suggest the Lampi does the same in the digital realm. It is simply more uninhibited and unbridled in revealing a piano's action that I have not heard duplicated elsewhere. Two other points. First, the use of the term "action" has been described as it relates to how well a stereo system (not a piano) conveys this feature many years ago by Jon Valin (which is among the reasons he really is a skilled audio writer). Second, it helps when you have a Steinway Grand (an A3, not a D) in your listening room (I do) to serve as a reference for piano reproduction. The good news is that although I wish I could play it better, it's not really critical for meaningful audio comparison purposes!
Marty
 

PeterA

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Peter, for me, the significant observation that was a game changer was the reproduction of the "action" of the piano keyboard. Technically the term action refers to the mechanical assembly which translates the depression of the keys into rapid motion of a hammer which strikes the strings. But its reference here is more about how the Lampi conveys that feature inherent in the playing of a piano in comparison to any other DAC I've heard including MSB. The piano's "action" is a living, breathing thing. It's tonal variations and gradations of dynamics over 7 octaves is what gives the piano it's life. The delicacy and thunder rendered by a Steinway D is integral to the way it's played by a given pianist. There's an immediacy and naturalness to the action captured by great recordings that, for me, is unequalled when reproduced by a Lampi. It's as if other DACs are trying to put a round peg in a square hole as far as capturing that action.

It's not unlike the sort of difference some might describe when comparing digital to analog. Most would agree that analog gets us closer to the musical "truth" in that regard. Why? Honestly, there's a lot of potential reasons but the truth is I don't know or even understand all of them technically. But I understand there's often a difference that can be distinguished sonically. I would suggest the Lampi does the same in the digital realm. It is simply more uninhibited and unbridled in revealing a piano's action that I have not heard duplicated elsewhere. Two other points. First, the use of the term "action" has been described as it relates to how well a stereo system (not a piano) conveys this feature many years ago by Jon Valin (which is among the reasons he really is a skilled audio writer). Second, it helps when you have a Steinway Grand (an A3, not a D) in your listening room (I do) to serve as a reference for piano reproduction. The good news is that although I wish I could play it better, it's not really critical for meaningful audio comparison purposes!
Marty

Thank you Marty. That is a wonderful description. Could you please recommend a couple of digital and analog recordings that to you demonstrate this sense of "action"? Thank you.
 
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Kingsrule

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Peter, for me, the significant observation that was a game changer was the reproduction of the "action" of the piano keyboard. Technically the term action refers to the mechanical assembly which translates the depression of the keys into rapid motion of a hammer which strikes the strings. But its reference here is more about how the Lampi conveys that feature inherent in the playing of a piano in comparison to any other DAC I've heard including MSB. The piano's "action" is a living, breathing thing. It's tonal variations and gradations of dynamics over 7 octaves is what gives the piano it's life. The delicacy and thunder rendered by a Steinway D is integral to the way it's played by a given pianist. There's an immediacy and naturalness to the action captured by great recordings that, for me, is unequalled when reproduced by a Lampi. It's as if other DACs are trying to put a round peg in a square hole as far as capturing that action.

It's not unlike the sort of difference some might describe when comparing digital to analog. Most would agree that analog gets us closer to the musical "truth" in that regard. Why? Honestly, there's a lot of potential reasons but the truth is I don't know or even understand all of them technically. But I understand there's often a difference that can be distinguished sonically. I would suggest the Lampi does the same in the digital realm. It is simply more uninhibited and unbridled in revealing a piano's action that I have not heard duplicated elsewhere. Two other points. First, the use of the term "action" has been described as it relates to how well a stereo system (not a piano) conveys this feature many years ago by Jon Valin (which is among the reasons he really is a skilled audio writer). Second, it helps when you have a Steinway Grand (an A3, not a D) in your listening room (I do) to serve as a reference for piano reproduction. The good news is that although I wish I could play it better, it's not really critical for meaningful audio comparison purposes!
Marty


MSB Premier or Select II in your comparison? Single or dual power bases? Which Lampi? Which tubes? Which combination of tubes?
Is this comparison in your system?
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Could owners of Lampi and MSB describe what it is specifically that convinced them to choose one brand over the other?

in my case i went from the Golden Gate v1, to the v1.5. then Ed Hsu brought in the Nagra HD and Aqua Formula and comparing all three preferred the Aqua Formula as more similar to my analog references, and less sameness over the music for my particular system. it's fair to point out that my system seems to expose sameness to a higher degree than other systems. it gets in the way of all the musical information as i sample all my references. and my system has such a lively sound stage that tubes don't really bring 'more' of that holographic stuff. the system just does that.

during my months with the Formula i continued to listen to the GG1.5, still loved it, but preferred the Formula to my ears in my system. there was music where i preferred the GG1.5; but then other music where it seemed to hold things back relatively.

then i bought the MSB Select II and it's ability to attain that continuous-ness of the music transcended other digital i have heard, without any sort of sameness blunting the musical nuance. these are all 'relative' terms.......unless you are living with these pieces it's hard to objectively point fingers. these are all superb products. it's only listening to my references that the considerable attraction of the Select II i had heard at shows really solidified in my mind. my system and references leave little place for doubt.

and if i would have never heard the Formula or Select II in my system i could have continued to be fully satisfied with the GG1.5. it did it all.
 

marty

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Thank you Marty. That is a wonderful description. Could you please recommend a couple of digital and analog recordings that to you demonstrate this sense of "action"? Thank you.

Peter,

Happy to oblige. Hard to choose among many fine example but these should be useful for our purposes of highlighting good piano recordings that can be used to assess DAC playback capabilities for piano reproduction.


For Studio Piano recordings:

1) Murray Perahia Schubert Piano Sonatas Sony S2K 87706

Perahia .png

As beautiful as it gets. Lovely recording and the entire album is a gem. Try Disc 1, tracks 1,4,5 The space between the notes is where the piano breathes, especially in the lower register, but the action during the arpgeggios and sparkle of the treble throughout is also quite compelling.


2) Yoram Ish-Hurwitz | Liszt Turtle Records TRSA0020

Ish-Hurwitz.png

This SACD has incredible dynamic range which shows off the Steinway D’s capabilities nicely.
Try track 4 which has some gorgeous treble tones. Track 5 is begun “presto furioso” which says it all. Overwhelming left hand. Then resolves to a much calmer piu mosso ending. (Track 5 is unlike most of the tracks which mostly demonstrate an introspective, serene and reflective side of Liszt). Once again, gorgeous playing throughout on a superbly recorded instrument.

For Live piano recordings:

3) Yuj Wang The Berlin Recital Deutche Grammophon 028948362820

Wang.png

A masterpiece in every way. Dazzling and compelling playing. The repertoire is brilliant. Combining Rachmaninov, Scriabin with Ligeti (the guy was far ahead of his time- so fascinating) and Prokofiev. Might as well start with track 1. The DGG tonmeisters are in their element here in Berlin’s Philharmonie Hall and capture the Steinway beautifully. Track 9 shows both pianist and piano in top form, particularly the end of the first movement of Piano sonata No. 8 which exemplifies Wang’s tour-de -force playing.


4) Martha Argerich | Nelson Freire Salzberg DGG 477 8570

Salzberg .png

And now for something special. What’s better than a beautifully recorded piano? Answer- two pianos! And it doesn’t get any better when they’re played by two of the greatest virtuosos of all time. Argerich and Freire are not just incredible individual artists here. But as former husband and wife, they know each other’s playing so well that they communicate in a realm that creates sheer magic. Start with the Variations on a Theme of Haydn and see if you can stop before the last note of La Valse. Their version of Rachmaninov’s Symphonic Dances is just astounding and enough to make me forget all else as I'm in rapture here. It’s as if it was played by one mind with 4 hands.

For me, this is sort of like watching TV and changing the channels and you come across
“The Godfather” or “Animal house”. Either way, you can’t change the channel!

Similarly, if you find you are listening to this album and start thinking about DAC performance, you are unfortunately missing the point. What the Lampi does is allow you to listen to the music and forget about how the hell it's being reproduced. Not much I can say after that.


5) Honorable Mention:

Ivan Moravec Plays Beethoven VAI Audio 1010

Moravec.png

I had to include this for one reason only. I was at Mike Lavigne’s barn many years ago when he gave me his computer tablet and told me to play something (As many of us know, Mike is a generous host and often gives his visitors pretty much free reign for listening options) . No idea why I chose this but since I like piano music for critical listening, I hit play. I was listening to the piece played through Mike’s GG 1.5 and it was at that moment I knew I was hearing something that was special. I wasn’t sure it was the cat’s meow as I was into Meitner at the time but filed it away in my brain nonetheless for revisiting down the road. Little did I know that time would come several years later. But indeed after several significant system changes, I finally pulled the trigger on acquiring a Lampi GG2. Is listening to it even more satisfying than watching “The Godfather” for the 300th time? You bet.

Hope this helps
Marty
 
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PeterA

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Thank you Marty. I asked the question mostly for people with digital in their systems so they could relate to what you are talking about, but I also have an interest in my own system which is vinyl only, so do you have any recordings that you have on vinyl that indicate the same quality about a piano’s “action”? Many thanks.
 

Ron Resnick

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Peter, for me, the significant observation that was a game changer was the reproduction of the "action" of the piano keyboard. Technically the term action refers to the mechanical assembly which translates the depression of the keys into rapid motion of a hammer which strikes the strings. But its reference here is more about how the Lampi conveys that feature inherent in the playing of a piano in comparison to any other DAC I've heard including MSB. The piano's "action" is a living, breathing thing. It's tonal variations and gradations of dynamics over 7 octaves is what gives the piano it's life. The delicacy and thunder rendered by a Steinway D is integral to the way it's played by a given pianist. There's an immediacy and naturalness to the action captured by great recordings that, for me, is unequalled when reproduced by a Lampi. It's as if other DACs are trying to put a round peg in a square hole as far as capturing that action.

It's not unlike the sort of difference some might describe when comparing digital to analog. Most would agree that analog gets us closer to the musical "truth" in that regard. Why? Honestly, there's a lot of potential reasons but the truth is I don't know or even understand all of them technically. But I understand there's often a difference that can be distinguished sonically. I would suggest the Lampi does the same in the digital realm. It is simply more uninhibited and unbridled in revealing a piano's action that I have not heard duplicated elsewhere. Two other points. First, the use of the term "action" has been described as it relates to how well a stereo system (not a piano) conveys this feature many years ago by Jon Valin (which is among the reasons he really is a skilled audio writer). Second, it helps when you have a Steinway Grand (an A3, not a D) in your listening room (I do) to serve as a reference for piano reproduction. The good news is that although I wish I could play it better, it's not really critical for meaningful audio comparison purposes!
Marty

Dear Marty,

To what in the Lampi do you attribute this sonic superiority?

Do you think it is the computer in his DAC, or the presence of a tube in the audio circuit?
 

marty

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Dear Marty,

To what in the Lampi do you attribute this sonic superiority?

Do you think it is the computer in his DAC, or the presence of a tube in the audio circuit?
Can I get a simpler question please? Something long the lines of, what did I eat today for lunch? :rolleyes:
Seriously Ron, I have no clue as to what gives it its properties.. To me its a black box that makes music.
 
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Ron Resnick

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marty

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Thank you Marty. I asked the question mostly for people with digital in their systems so they could relate to what you are talking about, but I also have an interest in my own system which is vinyl only, so do you have any recordings that you have on vinyl that indicate the same quality about a piano’s “action”? Many thanks.

Peter
Try these. although I'd prefer just to list piano only LPs, the Liszt concertos have plenty of piano only passages for good evaluation material.

Encore- Byron Janis
This was the first recording in the USSR by an American company. Wilma Cozart and her husband Robert Fine capture the piano very well and Janis shines throughout.


IMG_2482 2.jpg


Monty Alexander D2D
This is uniquely talented jazz piano playing captured in a superb D2D recording

IMG_2481.jpg


Sviatoslav Richter /The Liszt Concertos/ Philips
Get ready for Valhalla. This is one of the greatest recordings I own played one of the greatest pianists of all time.
The piano action is of course stupendous in the explosive passages, but listen to the soft trill at the end of the 2nd movement of the 1st concerto. This is where the Lampi says to all other DACs "listen to what a piano sounds like here. Can you do that"? The fact that Richter plays it with the precision of a machine makes it all the more amazing.


IMG_2480.jpg
 
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CKKeung

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Sviatoslav Richter /The Liszt Concertos/ Philips

This Richter is definitely one of my favourites!
 
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Ron Resnick

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Okay, Marty. Stop twisting my arm.

What did you have for dinner?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Get ready for Valhalla. This is one of the greatest recordings I own played one of the greatest pianists of all time.The piano action is of course stupendous in the explosive passages, but listen to the soft trill at the end of the 1st movement of the 1st concerto. This is where the Lampi says to all other DACs "listen to what a piano sounds like here. Can you do that"? The fact that Richter plays it with the precision of a machine makes it all the more amazing.

Marty,

it is rare that we don't agree. but in this case i must disagree. and it's not that i did not enjoy the GG1.5 on piano. it's very good, as you recalled from my room. but your above quote throws down the gauntlet and i am compelled to accept it.

and i'll say "yes, it can not only do that, but this too....."

the MSB Select II gets the harmonic complexity all the way right, and it can handle the nuance, scale, speed/suddenness, and immediacy all the way right too. with a lower noise floor. when i speak of 'sameness' with tubes in my system this is part of it. the MSB more closely compares to my vinyl with piano; it get's more of the live-ness and sparkle. when i first got the Select II this was my test area i most focused on. and as i push the dynamics it holds together like no other dac at full tilt boggie.

a major reason i was attracted to the MSB Select II at the shows was what it did for piano that no other dac could do. i'd listen to other dacs, come back to the MSB room and it was on another level. and during the time i was listening to the Select II at shows i owned the Golden Gate.....where the Golden Gate had all the advantages over those MSB show systems.

here is one of my early (a few days after first plugging it in) Select II posts that refers to my perceptions of piano reproduction.....

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/msb-select-ii-arrival.23302/page-7#post-455392

at home likely 1/3rd of my listening is to digital piano recordings, lots of solo but also concerto's and smaller combos. i also listen to lots of piano on vinyl. this is not a matter of not fully enjoying piano on the Golden Gate, but a matter that i enjoy it more on the Select II. one big reason i added the Tana active shelves under my amps is how it brings piano recordings even more alive. the precision of the MSB has so much headroom it can take full advantage of what the active can bring. it's a wonder to behold.

it fair to say that we all have our preferences, and that every system context is different. i only can speak for my perceptions in my system and how i've heard things go at shows.

we both have great dacs that do piano beautifully. that i agree with.
 
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CKKeung

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Marty,

it is rare that we don't agree. but in this case i must disagree. and it's not that i did not enjoy the GG1.5 on piano. it's very good, as you recalled from my room. but your above quote throws down the gauntlet and i am compelled to accept it.

and i'll say "yes, it can not only do that, but this too....."

the MSB Select II gets the harmonic complexity all the way right, and it can handle the nuance, scale, speed/suddenness, and immediacy all the way right too. with a lower noise floor. when i speak of 'sameness' with tubes in my system this is part of it. the MSB more closely compares to my vinyl with piano; it get's more of the live-ness and sparkle. when i first got the Select II this was my test area i most focused on. and as i push the dynamics it holds together like no other dac at full tilt boggie.

a major reason i was attracted to the MSB Select II at the shows was what it did for piano that no other dac could do. i'd listen to other dacs, come back to the MSB room and it was on another level. and during the time i was listening to the Select II at shows i owned the Golden Gate.....where the Golden Gate had all the advantages over those MSB show systems.

here is one of my early (a few days after first plugging it in) Select II posts that refers to my perceptions of piano reproduction.....

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/msb-select-ii-arrival.23302/page-7#post-455392

at home likely 1/3rd of my listening is to digital piano recordings, lots of solo but also concerto's and smaller combos. i also listen to lots of piano on vinyl. this is not a matter of not fully enjoying piano on the Golden Gate, but a matter that i enjoy it more on the Select II. one big reason i added the Tana active shelves under my amps is how it brings piano recordings even more alive. the precision of the MSB has so much headroom it can take full advantage of what the active can bring. it's a wonder to behold.

it fair to say that we all have our preferences, and that every system context is different. i only can speak for my perceptions in my system and how i've heard things go at shows.

we both have great dacs that do piano beautifully. that i agree with.
Hello Mike,
Agree 100% with your comments!
I have ample experience on almost all the top dac (except Aeries Cerat) in the market and have listened to the Lampizator Pacific many times.
It's among my personal best five dac but I still stand by my Select DAC firmly. Actually I made my purchase of the Select DAC after listening to Pacific in several diff owner home systems.

However I do understand that hifi is a subjective/personal hobby and I respect other commrades' taste and preference.

BTW that Richter Liszt concerto cd gives top performance via my MSB Select combo too.
I will buy the other piano music software recommanded by Marty in his earlier posts.
I am sure they must be very good.
:)
 

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