Mark Levinson on today’s audio industry

[microstrip]

I actually don’t think I know the prices paid for items owned by others. Prices are sometimes quoted but I don’t know who pays retail prices.

For our exchange of posts what matters is the recommended retail price.

You consider these discussed turntables to be “unobtainium”.

But you should know about the RRP of the AS2000. It is a recent product.

What others pay for equipment that you think is impossible to acquire should not be of concern. Furthermore, these items are antiques and as you have written they are special cases and exceptions to the market.

Nice to see you now agree with me on impossible to acquire.

The Wadax and new MSB DAC are current flagships with retail prices. The last retail prices for the Lamm LP1 was around $50k and the LL1.1 around $60k. I don’t know what others pay for these items.

Let us assume $140k for the AS2000. Add $110k for the Lamm's, the tonearm and cartridges and you are not far from the value of the DAC - I am now driving the amplifier directly from it. And I don't pay expensive and complex re-tubes!

 

[Kingrex]

Isn't it enjoyable how a conversation that starts with, adding heroic amounts of bracing and cabinet work on a speaker may not lend a better end result, just a much higher price. And people want to go along with the idea. But start picking at their TT or DAC. OWN NO. The massive uptick in price was absolutely worth it. Its a value that is worth paying for.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

For our exchange of posts what matters is the recommended retail price.



But you should know about the RRP of the AS2000. It is a recent product.



Nice to see you now agree with me on impossible to acquire.



Let us assume $140k for the AS2000. Add $110k for the Lamm's, the tonearm and cartridges and you are not far from the value of the DAC - I am now driving the amplifier directly from it. And I don't pay expensive and complex re-tubes!

Cost of the media is the big deal looking at the big picture for serious vinyl guys. A few have limited collections with serious vinyl but not many.

So that’s the difference in investment between the two formats at serious levels. And racks and storage space too. Big logistical commitment

Tape a better fit for limited media much less logistical issues.

 

[PeterA]

For our exchange of posts what matters is the recommended retail price.

But you should know about the RRP of the AS2000. It is a recent product.

For the AS 2000, they were all sold directly by DDK to those who wanted them before the first one was built. They were pre ordered. There was never a recommended retail price because they were all gone before the first one was built. They were roughly the price of the Air Force one premium.

Nice to see you now agree with me on impossible to acquire.

I don’t agree with you, but since you are always right, I take you at your claim. So in your universe, they’re impossible to get and so price should not matter to you. Price matter to me because they were offered to me for sale. And I made my choices between the three turntables based on the price and how I value the performance in my own system.

I don’t think you understand that David chooses his customers and offers them a price. There is a limited market for this stuff. You described it as exceptional and outside of market forces and that’s what it is. The client is buying something very unique and get the guidance of an advisor. It’s not like other audio purchases that I know of.

Let us assume $140k for the AS2000. Add $110k for the Lamm's, the tonearm and cartridges and you are not far from the value of the DAC - I am now driving the amplifier directly from it. And I don't pay expensive and complex re-tubes!

I bought my ML2, LL1, both used and LP1 new for a total of half of what you quote here. You are just guessing and have no clue. These are private matters and they fall outside the bounds of normal new retail transactions.

Good for you for avoiding the price and hassle of tubes. It’s the condition I tolerate for the result.

 

[gleeds]

I have not heard the SupraTrak tonearms; however, several sources feel it ranks among the very best. A 12" version of the arm is available for under $10k. Add a Kuzma Stabi R as the spinner, and you're well under $25k. I believe this amount is the minimum investment required to make a valuable comparison with a six-figure "super table," and this is but one suggestion.

As for Mike's comments on acoustic isolation, I totally agree. A solid foundation and a level playing field in terms of support for the evaluation are key. From what I understand, the Seison bases are very, very good when placed under components. Mike's sub towers reach down to 15 Hz, so a system with a super table is also likely to be paired with amplification and speakers that generate a whole lot more bass energy.

I have owned and loved the Wave Kinetics NVS with just about any arm (the Durand Tosca is a proven fit), although any of the top arms can work as well. That table without a cartridge is roughly $60-70k and IMO can take on the big boys at $100-200k. Mike L is the authority on the WK/NVS table's performance.

Peter's table is, I am sure, amazing and natural sounding to his ear. I wonder how the suggested 20-25k combo would fare in a long afternoon of listening to both.

 

[PeterA]

Isn't it enjoyable how a conversation that starts with, adding heroic amounts of bracing and cabinet work on a speaker may not lend a better end result, just a much higher price. And people want to go along with the idea. But start picking at their TT or DAC. OWN NO. The massive uptick in price was absolutely worth it. Its a value that is worth paying for.

That’s because we’re going from a general discussion without specific examples in an article to members’ own your systems that are chosen because they meet certain criteria and provide certain performance.

I don’t know anything about DACs, just I’m surprised by the prices. I do know a little bit about high mass belt drive turntables. With this approach, implementation matters a lot, and you do get benefits in terms of speed stability with higher mass as well as reductions and noise. With the samples that I compared, going to heroic efforts is certainly audible and stands in contrast to the point Vanderstein seems to be making. These advantages tend to result in higher costs.

If you have any experience with these types of turntables or speaker cabinets, perhaps you can add your perspective to this discussion.

 

[PeterA]

Peter's table is, I am sure, amazing and natural sounding to his ear. I wonder how the suggested 20-25k combo would fare in a long afternoon of listening to both.

gleeds, have you heard the big micro Seiki turntables? My turn sounds similar to those, but you get a slightly more natural presentation. Better presence, more nuance, and ambience slightly more alive. A little more calmness to the music. Better clarity and more energy.

 

[Kingrex]

Per post 346, would I be off track to say the same consensus is probably felt among high end speaker owners. In short, Vanderstein is wrong. Those extensive and expensive efforts do in fact lead to a adjective, adjective, adjective that translate to higher pleasure. Its worth it to enough people that speaker manufacturer put the time and effort into making the product.

 

[microstrip]

For the AS 2000, they were all sold directly by DDK to those who wanted them before the first one was built. They were pre ordered. There was never a recommended retail price because they were all gone before the first one was built. They were roughly the price of the Air Force one premium.

Ok, it seems my estimate was correct.

I don’t agree with you, but since you are always right, I take you at your claim. So in your universe, they’re impossible to get and so price should not matter to you. Price matter to me because they were offered to me for sale. And I made my choices between the three turntables based on the price and how I value the performance in my own system.

For me, price always matters.

I don’t think you understand that David chooses his customers and offers them a price. There is a limited market for this stuff. You described it as exceptional and outside of market forces and that’s what it is. The client is buying something very unique and get the guidance of an advisor. It’s not like other audio purchases that I know of.

Surely. Thanks for confirming the very limited DDK universe.

I bought my ML2, LL1, both used and LP1 new for a total of half of what you quote here. You are just guessing and have no clue. These are private matters and they fall outside the bounds of normal new retail transactions.

Again, in general discussions what matters is RRP. I don't care about what you privately paid. I quoted the sum of RRP of the LP1 and LL1.

Good for you for avoiding the price and hassle of tubes. It’s the condition I tolerate for the result.

I could easily find how to select and match Lamm tubes - I have built a custom jig to do it. My problem was that when I wanted to sell the gear most prospective customers gave up once they understood the intrinsic problems of replacing them.

 

[tima]

DDK has procured some of the best high efficiency speakers made, Peter and you were lucky to find such a source.

Yes David knows how to find quality vintage here and from his many contacts in Japan. And yes, Peter and I were fortunate in our acquisitions. Mine came from a JBL sales manager in the US. The woofers were re-coned at JBL with the Aquaplas applied by designer Greg Timbers. Originally I was very interested in the Hartsfields which also look fantastic; he sold his last pair. The M9500s were built as studio monitors and look industrial, but once I heard them I could not deny them. On a smaller scale, sounding excellent, relative bargains are the 16 Ohm Diatones and the JBL 4344, 4350 and others in that series.

 

[PeterA]

but it seems the point you are making is that defining actual performance is somewhat elusive. and only slightly related to cost/retail price.....with turntables. past a certain point they are more different than better/worse.

I think this is an interesting distinction. Anyone who has gone and heard some of David Karmeli‘s various Beyond turntables will be able to form an opinion on whether he thinks the tables simply sound different from each other or if one or two stand out as actually being better and worse. I have been lucky to compare three in my own system using the same arm and cartridge. I lived with them for a couple of months, but it was clear early that there were differences that resulted in good better and best. And the prices reflected those differences.

 

[PeterA]

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

What do you recommend as a stellar turntable for $20,000?

In my opinion, one can search on eBay and find a “stellar” vintage Denon DD table for $1000. Add any number of excellent vintage cartridges for $500 and you will have a great source. If it breaks, just buy another one. One rung up are the Garard 301 and 401 restored in good plinths. The next jump is the big Micro Seiki.

I agree that there are great choices at various price points. I like the TechDAS Air Force 3P for new.

 

[jeff1225]

What do you recommend as a stellar turntable for $20,000?

In my opinion, one can search on eBay and find a “stellar” vintage Denon DD table for $1000. Add any number of excellent vintage cartridges for $500 and you will have a great source. If it breaks, just buy another one. One rung up are the Garard 301 and 401 restored in good plinths. The next jump is the big Micro Seiki.

I agree that there are great choices at various price points. I like the TechDAS Air Force 3P for new.

One must choose the type of drive they want (belt, direct, or idler), and then move up the line as their budget permits. For many, a restored 301 or 401 would be superior to any Micro Seiki, if they were looking for the drive that a idler wheel provides. The top of the heap for idlers is probably the EMT 927.

 

[microstrip]

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

There is an audio forum where a stellar DAC costs less than 1/ 300th of a top DAC in WBF ... And as digital is easy to measure they will prove to you they sound exactly the same!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

There is an audio forum where a stellar DAC costs less than 1/ 300th of a top DAC in WBF ... And as digital is easy to measure they will prove to you they sound exactly the same!

the problem is that the vinyl format has so many more than acceptable levels of play that it still reveals more at higher and higher levels of execution. so where is your particular acceptable level of play? and what is stellar? or even is there a general viewpoint of where those points might be?

it's tempting to want to define this point so one can just check it off one's list as job done. but this is not one of those kinda things.

my approx $6k + $3500 Loricraft PSU Dobbins Garrard 301 (plus arms and carts) i owned from 2009-2012 IMHO did hit that mark for me. maybe it's double now for that level. yet it was not without it's foibles either. but it did very important things, stellar things, very well and always delivered the music. i wanted more, and went on to get more. so not everyone stops at the 'sufficient' level.

 

[Kingrex]

What do you recommend as a stellar turntable for $20,000?

In my opinion, one can search on eBay and find a “stellar” vintage Denon DD table for $1000. Add any number of excellent vintage cartridges for $500 and you will have a great source. If it breaks, just buy another one. One rung up are the Garard 301 and 401 restored in good plinths. The next jump is the big Micro Seiki.

I agree that there are great choices at various price points. I like the TechDAS Air Force 3P for new.

Same with JVC. There are some forums with particular models that with some minor mod, are supposed to be very good. They do punch well above their price.

I have 0 idea how my table compares to a high mass $$$$$$$ table. I do know I did a lot of hot rodding of my Rega RP6 table. The remote mounted motor. weights, platter stuff. The STST Motus II was immediately heard as a better table. I don't have words now. I just remember a wow, that's a whole lot better.

I have no idea how that translates to a speaker costing $300K vs a speaker costing $70k. No idea. In my mind, a well done $70,000 speakers should equate to very high performance. One that sat in the correct room, with the correct treatments, should start blending into that, is it just different???????

 

[PeterA]

Same with JVC. There are some forums with particular models that with some minor mod, are supposed to be very good. They do punch well above their price.

I have 0 idea how my table compares to a high mass $$$$$$$ table. I do know I did a lot of hot rodding of my Rega RP6 table. The remote mounted motor. weights, platter stuff. The STST Motus II was immediately heard as a better table. I don't have words now. I just remember a wow, that's a whole lot better.

I have no idea how that translates to a speaker costing $300K vs a speaker costing $70k. No idea. In my mind, a well done $70,000 speakers should equate to very high performance. One that sat in the correct room, with the correct treatments, should start blending into that, is it just different???????

I have no idea, Rex. I generally try to speak about specific examples that I’ve heard in my own system and know something about. The questions you ask are extremely broad and general and open ended. I have heard great speakers costing half of $70,000. Of course they have been parts of exemplary systems extremely well set up.

 

[Kingrex]

There is always an excuse to spend more.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There is always an excuse to spend more.

and always rationalization (i'm done/retired ) to stand pat.

 

[Kingrex]

I have no idea, Rex. I generally try to speak about specific examples that I’ve heard in my own system and know something about. The questions you ask are extremely broad and general and open ended. I have heard great speakers costing half of $70,000. Of course they have been parts of exemplary systems extremely well set up.

I hear you and don't disagree with the way your approaching the development of opinions. I even started a thread once where I questioned how someone could comment on a product they never heard. Since no person has heard it all. Accept Robert Neil of World Wide Wholesale , no one can really have any opinion???????

Since we know we all have some experiences and develop opinions from them, we have to accept some amount of generalizations. My generalization from my experience is once your at about $70,000 with a speaker, you have an amazing product. The speaker is not holding you back. Its optimizing everything in the system and matching that speaker to the amp and to the room. If you do that, then I begin to question how much "Better" you get when you spend more. Or do you get different. Different may be a lot of things.