main difference between real sound and repro sound

fas42

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Where are you going with this, Frank? I'm failing to see the point in speculating about perfect systems of recording and playback.

Tim
It's because you need neither perfect recording nor perfect playback to get the trick, the illusion , the universal sweet spot, the room to pressurise. This can happen but you are choosing, at the moment, to believe that it can't happen.

Everyone who enjoys recorded music are very, very lucky because the mics and the recording gear did a much better job than people give them credit for, and that experience is waiting to happen for them. The recordings ARE good enough, not perfect, but the ear/brain is forgiving. and will allow you to enjoy the experience when you up the ante on the playback side.

Jack, unfortunately you are working hard to convince yourself and others that the auditory system is an unbelievably hard taskmaster and that's one's head is not willing to allow itself to be deluded even a tiny, tiny bit, that it won't allow itself to endulge in an illusion, which is a great shame ...

Arthur C. Clarke: "If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong."

Frank
 

fas42

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Another titbit:

I went to the Brisbane, Queenland in Australia Expo in 1988. I had already got my "trick" happening and was keeping my ears wide open to how other systems sounded. First pavilion we went to was the Canadian and I nearly had a heart attack!

The PA sound was absolutely superb, "big" sound that beat the pants of every so called high end system I had heard up to that point. Treble was clean and sweet and flowed over me beautifully, any distortion was completely inaudible; I was extremely impressed. I though, gosh, these pro guys really DO know what they're doing.

Trouble was, I then went to other pavilions. Oh boy, oh Bose. Yes, those dastardly beasts were everywhere and the sound ranged from just tolerable to totally execrable. That Canadian show largely was my first and last experience of decent, clean and involving public address sound to this day ..


Frank
 

fas42

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my modification will better than yours, because in my experience tube amp DHT SE always beat SS amp, tube rectifier beat silicon diode, choke in put in power supply always the best, transformer coupling beat cap coupling, silver beat copper, multi power supply beat single one, multi amps beat single amp, etc, with this mods

Actually, I agree with every one of these methods and mods, to me they all have value in getting the system closer. The trick, hah, is to believe you can go all the way and make the Big sweet spot happen.

Frank
 

JackD201

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It's because you need neither perfect recording nor perfect playback to get the trick, the illusion , the universal sweet spot, the room to pressurise. This can happen but you are choosing, at the moment, to believe that it can't happen.

Everyone who enjoys recorded music are very, very lucky because the mics and the recording gear did a much better job than people give them credit for, and that experience is waiting to happen for them. The recordings ARE good enough, not perfect, but the ear/brain is forgiving. and will allow you to enjoy the experience when you up the ante on the playback side.

Jack, unfortunately you are working hard to convince yourself and others that the auditory system is an unbelievably hard taskmaster and that's one's head is not willing to allow itself to be deluded even a tiny, tiny bit, that it won't allow itself to endulge in an illusion, which is a great shame ...

Arthur C. Clarke: "If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong."

Frank

I see no need to repeat myself Frank. So I'll leave it at that.
 

LL21

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To pick this thread back up from one person´s standpoint...i just go thru listening to live Flamenco in Spain. 3 singers, 3 guitars in a room 30 feet by 35 feet with 14 foot ceiling. Stucco construction and felt like hard stone flooring. Observations eyes closed of live vs system. Aside from acoustics in the Flamenco room being totally different from my own,
1. 2 channel reproduction of live concert will not give full surround sound in the same depth as a live performance in the room. big difference
2. Close mike 2 channel CDs are probably better for "live feeling" therefore
3. Dynamics of 3 guitars is stunning that it can so easily fill a room that size with no amplification, when we struggle with hundreds of Watts and 1,400lbs of speaker to match it
4. That said, what i was pleased by was that it is super critical in any system to get the BALANCE right of the weight, tonality and speed of the playback to mimic live. and in that regard, i am very pleased with my system at home which, for the first time, presents Spanish guitar with a comparably large sized soundstage (gypsy kings, Julian Bream, John Williams) to what i heard last nite. getting a balanced presentation (at whatever scale that might be in your system, relative to full live scale) is absolutely critical. in fact, given that we all have compromises in our system...that feels instinctively to me now to be the most important...BALANCED presentation.
5. For example, the actual tonality and feel of the full range of the guitar is very well balanced in my system so that i do not feel there is much diff between live and playback...other than the fact that i have yet to find just turning up the volume can reproduce the room filling capability of those 3 simple guitars, 3 singers.
6. I also appreciate that bass speed is super super super important. Live bass is very fast and a greater challenge to replicate than i even realized after all these years. If a system is even a nanosecond slow in upper bass transient response, a good ear is going to pick it up without consciously realizing it. i think my system could probably use a touch of upper bass clean up-speed. i have been told power cable or fuses might help in this regard since i am not far off at the moment.
 

fas42

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what i was pleased by was that it is super critical in any system to get the BALANCE right of the weight, tonality and speed of the playback to mimic live. and in that regard, i am very pleased with my system at home which, for the first time, presents Spanish guitar with a comparably large sized soundstage (gypsy kings, Julian Bream, John Williams) to what i heard last nite. getting a balanced presentation (at whatever scale that might be in your system, relative to full live scale) is absolutely critical. in fact, given that we all have compromises in our system...that feels instinctively to me now to be the most important...BALANCED presentation.
5. For example, the actual tonality and feel of the full range of the guitar is very well balanced in my system so that i do not feel there is much diff between live and playback...other than the fact that i have yet to find just turning up the volume can reproduce the room filling capability of those 3 simple guitars, 3 singers.
6. I also appreciate that bass speed is super super super important. Live bass is very fast and a greater challenge to replicate than i even realized after all these years. If a system is even a nanosecond slow in upper bass transient response, a good ear is going to pick it up without consciously realizing it. i think my system could probably use a touch of upper bass clean up-speed. i have been told power cable or fuses might help in this regard since i am not far off at the moment.
You're pretty game, lloydelee21, going for another round with this old fella ...:)

My comments in this thread so far are just a variation on a theme that I have been pushing for a while now, with able support at times from both Vince and Roger. Without beating a dead horse, and indeed IMO the horse is very, very far from being deceased, I'll just comment thus:

Yes, it is very critical to get the system just right: you use the word "balance", others "synergy", I the phrase "minimal distortion". These are various ways of looking at the elephant, as in the stories of blind people trying to work what the animal is. The "balance" approach can do remarkable things: I've been amazed at times how some systems can do a beautiful playback of some recording, and on the next recording it's a hideous mess. So it is a technique for tuning a system, but IMO a flawed one because the balance is so precarious.

And where the balance also usually comes unstuck is reflected in your next comment: you can't turn up the volume because the illusion of "realness" is too fragile, it will fall apart as you try to increase the intensity. This to me is saying that there are still problems with the system.

Finally, as has been stated by many, particularly Mark Seaton, the concept of fast bass is a myth. It has very little to do with the bass drivers, it's really all about the quality of the treble reproduction. Yes, to improve things in this regard playing around with items like cables and fuses will certainly have an effect, but unless you are very careful you can easily just end up going round in circles as far making real improvements are concerned.

Frank
 

Ernest F

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Audio I related to hearing AND we do not hear things the way they are , we hear them the way WE are — amen! W
I agree with Tim's comments.

tony ky ma, live unamplified music is clear as crystal, no thickness there to me.

Perhaps, though, when the mike has to take all that sound in at one point, that may be where the "different" sound you hear actually starts to take place, due to directional and distortion and coloring (frequency response and distortion) and bandlimiting of the mike.

I think you heard what the transformation of man made science does to the music signal by sampling it at one point with that mike. I could understand the term thick as applying to squashing dynamic range and eliminating ambience clues. I think we all agree that a huge part of the music is lost as soon as we try to capture it.

Tom
 

garylkoh

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To pick this thread back up from one person´s standpoint...i just go thru listening to live Flamenco in Spain. 3 singers, 3 guitars in a room 30 feet by 35 feet with 14 foot ceiling. Stucco construction and felt like hard stone flooring.

I envy you!! One of my dreams is to travel to Spain to take in a live Flamenco performance in an authentic space. So far, I've only heard performances on a modern stage in a concert hall, and that's completely different.

The best recording I have is this one - but get the FIM K2HD version, not the Phillips CD. The dynamics on the second track is stunning! There is a Mercury LP, but the recording isn't very good.

 

microstrip

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I envy you!! One of my dreams is to travel to Spain to take in a live Flamenco performance in an authentic space. So far, I've only heard performances on a modern stage in a concert hall, and that's completely different. (...)

Not exactly equivalent, but some years ago I was able to hear the live performance of STOMP in an old music hall with excellent acoustics in our country. Really impressive - the DVD is always a good demo for hometheater systems.
 

fas42

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I envy you!! One of my dreams is to travel to Spain to take in a live Flamenco performance in an authentic space. So far, I've only heard performances on a modern stage in a concert hall, and that's completely different.
A fond memory as a youngie in a Spanish restaurant (in Australia!) was being 10 feet away from guitarist and dancer, with that sort of acoustics. Lots of fire, very impressive!

(gypsy kings, Julian Bream, John Williams)
Not wanting to name drop, but just through circumstances I was in the position of hearing one of these live in a conventional room in a home.

So I have accumulated a number of experiences of the "real thing", to compare against ...

Frank
 

phosforx

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Dear Ethan Winer,
I have a pressing question , wonder if you can help me, please. It is probably the wrong place to ask this question but I am new here and still finding my way around.
We have a very reverberant church with standing platforms for stools standing only just 6 cm above the floor. If we added 2.5 cm of porous sound absorbing material on the underside of the platform would it be an effective sound absorber? The platforms have dimensions of 60 cm x 180cm and sound can reach under them since the platforms stand 6 cm above the ground. Please help. Phosforx
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I envy you!! One of my dreams is to travel to Spain to take in a live Flamenco performance in an authentic space. So far, I've only heard performances on a modern stage in a concert hall, and that's completely different.

The best recording I have is this one - but get the FIM K2HD version, not the Phillips CD. The dynamics on the second track is stunning! There is a Mercury LP, but the recording isn't very good.

Thanks! Sounds like a great CD...Pepe Romero is very well respescted.
 

Ernest F

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In my opinion, NO. A major part of the reverberation (or reflection of sound) will come from the surface of the floor, which, when you think about it, is the top part of the platforms. Instead of treating the bottom, think about adding absorbing material on top. This can be done with carpet and my experiments have lead me to believe that short-cut wool carpet would be just right. I suggest you try this on one half of these platforms to begin with, so that you can audition the sound — and remember that a little reverberation (reflection) will add to the ambience, make it more life-like, which is a good thing.
Ernest F
 

phosforx

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May 1, 2011
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Acoustic Absorption under a platform ?

Ernest thanks for posting your opinion. We cannot place absorbent on the dome of the ceiling because it will be covered by murals (icons painted onto the walls directly) . The top of the platforms is a more obvious choice. But this also would change the aesthetics.
If the material is put where there is a greater statistical chance of being hit by the sound wave then it will be absorbed more efficiently. So yes I agree with you. BUt...
On the other hand if more sound arrives over the top than the bottom then the sound pressure on top of the platforms should be greater than that under. Are you then surprised that I have actually measured greater pressure under than over ?
Also, if the top is hit more often that would mean that the RT60 measured over would be greater than under. I doubt that there is any difference. In fact I think that again we might measure the reverse because of resonances between the bare floor and the substantially rigid wood.
Phosforx
 

Ernest F

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Hey, It doesn't surprise me that the pressure zone between floor and platform is greater as air is trapped there. However, the reflective surfaces that sound-waves can "see" are the one that influence the acoustics of the area. As an alternative, you can also upholster the chairs, or fill the room with people — some of the best absorbing bodies — and I am somewhat surprised that you haven't mentioned how the room acts or reacts when either empty or filled with bodies. Unfortunately, you will have to compromise whatever you decided to do. Acoustics is a "measurable" science to be sure; yet, measurement are often quite misleading as we must consider the influence of the measuring components. Nothing can replace those ears and I recommend live, hands-on experimentation. It will take some time — good luck
 
Phosforx;
The problem with commercial spaces is that the larger the space gets, the smaller the surface area becomes relative to the room volume. Thus, for any fixed surface absorption, the time constant of the room increases with size and the room worse, acoustically.

That matters if one wants to understand words coming from a speaker, then it is critical to understand what is your enemy.
Pretend you have a very large bare walled concrete cave. In front of you is a stool with a boom box on it and it is playing a string of words for you to tell if you can hear. There is little absorption so the sound builds up like in any large live room.

Up close, it is easy to understand because you are so close to the source and as you walk away, you notice he sound level falls at the inverse square law (falls to -6dB each time you double the distance).
As you get farther away, it gets harder to hear the words and the SPL is falling more slowly than the inverse square law requires.
Farther away yet, you can’t understand the words at all, although it is clear there are voices and father away yet, you see the SPL does not fall any farther, the sound a dull vocal roar.
What has happened is you have transitioned from the near field of the boom box where the direct sound is louder than the reflected sound to the far field where the reverberant sound is louder than the direct.
To have good word intelligibility, you need the direct sound to be 10 dB or more over the reverberant sound.

Thank heaven they don’t use that criteria in the home although most agree the near field is the place to listen and hint hint, this same problem of delayed sounds is part of the cause of this thread.

Now, you can cover the whole room with fuzz OR you can select loudspeakers that are very directional. Here the idea is you aim the speakers where the people are and nowhere else. Ideally you need constant directivity speakers so that the frequency response is the same everywhere in the pattern. There are modeling programs like EASE that allow one to design the location and coverage of the speaker and full spherical measurements or at least polar plots are the norm for speakers used in that area as "where the sound goes" is so important.
You do not want a conventional line source if this is for music as the frequency response for them changes with distance and left to right.
If your requirement is more towards the maximum fidelity end, this is mostly what they do where I work.
Here is a sample of the problem rooms that used our speakers in their installations.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danleyport2.asp?instyp=HOW

Best,
Tom Danley
 

arnyk

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I got some experience during in live recording, a STAX static head phone switched to a Studer A80's out put and MIC pre amp, there were not too big different between those in sound quality but a noise of HISS, after I on and off the head phone to check the difference between real sound and the repro, I found main difference is not frequency respond or distortion, the real sound with body, mass, weight and thickness compare to the repro, so this should be the same way to compare two recorded source or two amps or two systems to see which has more thickness more mass and weight or sharp body,with those that will sound close to the real things is not only by measure the rate of distortion or frequency respond, I don't think people will compare two 0 % distortion 60HZ sin wave to see which HUM sound better, just joking
tony ma

I'm a professional recordist specializing in live events. I am therefore constantly faced with the problem of great audible differences between "live" and "recorded". Here I sit with dozens of great microphones, freedom to put them where I want, a 56 input mixing console, and a collection of recorders that I all know to be capable of certainly reproduce their electrical inputs far better than any comparison I hear when on the job. So, I've studied this problem for just a few decades.

I would say that most recordings are completely aware of these intractable differences, and generally redefine the problem in order to feel satisfied with their work. If you refine the problem as one of providing a recording that is a good reflection of the tone of the music and the content of the music, and a credible and pleasing but not identical rendition of the acoustic scene, then one can say that one's recordings are good.

I obtained one clue to the nature of the problem with the recordings I make with a coincident array, particularly those I make with a Rode NT4. I found that I had to put the mic far closer to the music ans than the listener, for the recording to have a perceived balance between direct and reflected sound that was similar to what the listener heard, and not just a little closer.

I later on learned from my studies of psychoacoustics that the human ear/brain does what is now called dereverberation. As decomposition of the word suggests, dereverberation is the process by which our brain strips off the sound reflections from our environment. We are thus able to clearly hear people speak at a distance in a reverberant room, where a recorder and mic at the listener's location would record sonic mud unless the mic was highly directional. Students who attempt to record in lecture halls are intimately familiar with this problem.

We know from the study of HRTF's that our ears don't have the laser beam directionality of highly directional microphones. Therefore, the effective directionality that we perceive is also due to things that happen in our brains.

Dereverberation is our friend because it makes it possible for us to enjoy listening to recordings in rooms that are far more reverberant than optimal. We also know that there is something about how we make recordings that vastly diminishes our ear's ability to dereverberate the room that the original performance took place in.

We know for example that virtually every microphone in general use for recording today primarily captures the sound pressure at its location. The sound waves that pass over the microphone's diaphragm also have the property of coming from a certain direction and going in a certain direction. Almost all microphones and microphone techniques that we currently use throw away almost all of this information about direction.

Even if we could capture the information about direction of the sound as accurately as we presently capture the information about sound pressure, we don't have speakers that could reproduce varying directional information with even an approximation, let alone accurately.

Therefore, for the foreseeable future we will be disappointed and dismayed whenever we compare what we hear coming out of our microphones to what we hear when we listen live. For openers, our live listening needs to be done from a vastly greater distance than there is from the microphones to the source to compensate for the fact that our ears unconsciously dereverberate what we hear.
 
In the last three years, I have move much further toward realism of what is before me. I have a very rich and precise sound stage before me that includes much information about the overtones of the instruments as well as the human noise of playing it and the non-music of the instrument, such as the rasp of the bow on the violin or the reed sound of the sax. I should also note that what I hear is three dimensional with a very precise hearing of how far behind the singer the piano is, etc.

I'm sure that the components in my system as well as the cables, isolation, and the detail that comes off the recording all contribute to what I hear. One problem with all of this is that the sound is true of where the microphone or microphones are, that this is often untrue of where one would be sitting in the audience. But, of course, it is pleasant to have perhaps the 'best' seat in the house.

I agree with Tim, that there is much dependence on the recording engineer's decisions of what to put on the record or disc. I should also say that with my Avari dac and AMS music server playing quad DSD I hear more realism off digital than off vinyl! I just don't think vinyl has as much detail that the stylus can pull off.
 

Yuri Korzunov

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Jul 30, 2015
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Sound is wave

Not once I noticed that live sound have more "volume"/"space", than recorded one.

Sound is wave. And there works wave theory.
Sound waves like light (optical/electromagnetic waves).

Acoustic sound is sum or acoustics rays from source (musical instrument, singer, etc.).
These rays radiated in all directions and reflect many surfaces.

These rays achieve listening point and impact to ear drum as sum rays (with delays and modification each one).
Each ray is sum of oscillations with phase and amplitude.

It is sound (acoustic) field. Like electromagnetic field.

And, rather all body, than ear drum only perceive sound.



Sound hologram

For listening sound field of concert hall need to create sound hologram in the listening room.
It is restoring of sound field of concert hall in the listening room.



Current technology

1. Currently used technology, that use head dummy with 2 microphones for capturing sound field like our head in the sound field.
Very important there change nothing in the record, except volume.
Theoretically, it work in headphones better than in speakers.
But there is difference: in concert hall music push on body. But recorded acoustic oscillations push on ear drum in headphones only.

2. Speakers radiate sound in room. And oscillation, that should directly push on ear drum of listener, pass thru acoustical distortions.
There is 1 oscillation transformed to many oscillations due reflections.

If listening performed in anechoic room, distance between speaker and ear drum may cause crosstalk between ears.

Probably, there worse link between diffuser of speaker and ear drum, than for isolated space under closed headphone cup or ear canal headphone.



Resume

In my opinion, modern systems enough good work with transfer of capturing of sound.

These systems provide low distortions. Digital systems are very close to ideal, I think.

But full restoring of sound wave field of concert hall or recording room in listening room (sound hologram) still unresolved in full volume.
 

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