Here's the interior of my preamp. Just a nice simple design by a member here named Ralph. Interesting Microstrip mentioned incompatibility of CR1's with tube pre's.
Magico MXO State of the Art Analog Crossover announced
- Thread starter Rhapsody
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take the $48k plus your subwoofer budget, and up your speaker budget. get a twin tower integrated design. time and phase aligned from the get go. the only rub is a room wide enough to time align all the drivers. since the main tower properly rolls off, you are good to go. i know i am.
a month ago i did hear a pair of Magico S5 Mk2's with a Q-Sub, and it was really good. it was at a show and a very large room, and there were moments of bass non coherence, but only a few. i'm guessing that what i heard is the direction of Magico and relevant to this product. that set-up was likely using DSP to some degree.
no doubt sub integration is a challenge. and congrats to Magico for pushing the boundaries.
a month ago i did hear a pair of Magico S5 Mk2's with a Q-Sub, and it was really good. it was at a show and a very large room, and there were moments of bass non coherence, but only a few. i'm guessing that what i heard is the direction of Magico and relevant to this product. that set-up was likely using DSP to some degree.
no doubt sub integration is a challenge. and congrats to Magico for pushing the boundaries.
How is introducing a simple 2-way electronic crossover for $48,000.00 pushing the boundaries? Are you referring to pushing the previous profit margin boundaries? Enlighten us on how this crossover pushes any other boundaries? What features does it offer that are innovative?
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i'm giving Magico the benefit of the doubt based on my listening to the Q-Sub integration at that show. it was the first time i actually came away fully satisfied hearing Magico. so i've got my rose colored glasses on. adding subs and outboard crossovers is not my approach to a true full range coherent presentation. but a serious product directed at that result is welcome. maybe only pushing the envelope in degrees of execution. likely they will have the 'S' and 'A' series versions at some point. the direction can only help.
hope to hear this at a show with an M6 or M3.....and see where that goes. if i owned either of those speakers and wanted to stay analog this would be on my radar. too spendy for the rest of the line-up.
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PAP-C1, Custom Active Analog Crossover for Open Baffle - PureAudioProject
www.pureaudioproject.com
I expect to get this product next Wednesday.
After I get it, I will give my opinion on it.'
It is made by "First Watt" team.
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Re
Regretfully only single ended connections, and no phase adjustment.PAP-C1, Custom Active Analog Crossover for Open Baffle - PureAudioProject
I expect to get this product next Wednesday.
After I get it, I will give my opinion on it.'
It is made my "First Watt" team.
Back in the days when I had TAD M1s, Andrew Jones came to my home to modify the M1s and bi-amp them using Bel Canto Ref1000 mono amps that had a built in crossover that was an LPF and EQ for the woofers. He bypassed the LPF in the speakers and also plugged the port on the M1s. But this was not to limit the low end response, it was actually to extend it. A ported speaker goes lower, but rolls off quicker than a sealed speaker. By plugging the port and also boosting the deep bass via the filter he built into the Bel Canto amps, he was able to get R1 like bass extension with M1 size cabinets.
In any case, what Andrew did with my M1s is very different from what you're trying to do. But that said, I do think plugging the port may be a good idea. The bass output from the port is not in phase with the output from the woofer. So now with your system you have three signals to integrate: the one from the woofer, the one from the port and then there is the subwoofer. I don't know exactly where the port in the CR1 comes into play, but I would expect the woofer on it's own in a sealed cabinet can go low enough so you can transition the subwoofers in at a low frequency.
Separately, I'm a big fan of the Pass XVR1, but it has to be set up correctly and this is not easy to do.
I would strongly recommend you get a calibrated microphone from dspMini and load REW on a laptop. This way you can easily measure what you're doing and not guessing at what''s correct by playing music. You can start by measuring the speakers on their own, then plug the port and see how low they go on their own. If it is low enough, then use the plugged TADs full range and roll in the subs just below where the TADs start to drop off.
In any case, what Andrew did with my M1s is very different from what you're trying to do. But that said, I do think plugging the port may be a good idea. The bass output from the port is not in phase with the output from the woofer. So now with your system you have three signals to integrate: the one from the woofer, the one from the port and then there is the subwoofer. I don't know exactly where the port in the CR1 comes into play, but I would expect the woofer on it's own in a sealed cabinet can go low enough so you can transition the subwoofers in at a low frequency.
Separately, I'm a big fan of the Pass XVR1, but it has to be set up correctly and this is not easy to do.
I would strongly recommend you get a calibrated microphone from dspMini and load REW on a laptop. This way you can easily measure what you're doing and not guessing at what''s correct by playing music. You can start by measuring the speakers on their own, then plug the port and see how low they go on their own. If it is low enough, then use the plugged TADs full range and roll in the subs just below where the TADs start to drop off.
I agree, $48,000 for a simple 2-way electronic crossover is absurd. I did not have a positive experience when I purchased Q5s from Alon, so perhaps I'm biased.
Unfortunately there are not many analogue options out there since Pass discontinued the XVR1. I suppose the market is limited as it's not easy to integrate/set-up a crossover correctly in a system.
Digital crossovers are great and can do things that are simply not possible with analogue crossovers, but they require a multichannel DAC, and those are also limited.
Hey, compared to $48,000 for speaker cables, the Magico crossover may be a bargain!
Pass Labs XVR-1 is a dual chassis, fully discreet analog circuitry X-over. it is also extremely flexible, allowing for approx. 1,000,000 (yes, that right, ONE Million) settings with multiple X-over points for Low and High pass separately, and 4 different slopes (6 dB, 12 dB, 18 dB and 24 dB). Allows for both SE and balanced connections. Can be expanded from basic two-ways to up to 5-ways. MSRP is $5,200 For the base 2-way configuration.
MAgico- One fixed X-over frequency and one slope. $48,000. Essentially it can only be used with subwoofers.
Beyond ridiculous
This PAP-C1 is essentially the First Watt crossover which Nelson Pass designed, set up for the Pure Audio speakers.
I would get a used XVR1, which is a full fledged Pass product and can work with most any speaker, if set up correctly. I'm very happy with my XVR1, it works flawlessly in my TAD R1 setup, and the service at Pass is impeccable.
Unfortunately the XVR1 is no longer made. Used ones sell rather quickly.
Nelson and Andrew Jones have a great relationship, btw. After considering many options, including digital crossovers with multichannel DACs, the crossover Andrew recommended for my R1s was the XVR1.
I agree with all your points, however ...
The XVR1 was discontinued years ago and I would expect in today's market it would cost quite a bit more than $5,200. That said the price of the Magico crossover is absurd.
The one saving grace for the Magico crossover is that I assume it was optimized for their speaker. It is not at all trivial to optimize a crossover. I suspect many of those that are disappointed with XVR1s have not set them up optimally.
But your point still stands. The "intellectual property" inherent in the optimization of the Magico crossover for their speaker does not come close to justifying the price. Even by comparison to the Wilson crossover, this price is insane.
The one saving grace I see is that we are seeing now more active crossovers in super high end speaker, from Wilson and now Magico. Perhaps more will follow that are at more reasonable price points.
Not sure if it is fully discreet (lots of opamps inside). Although it cleared up the sound, running the main through it was not to my liking.
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