Luxury Sedan Priced Speakers- they have fancy car paint, but do they sound better?

[Mark Seaton]

OK...here goes a layman's repeat of what a well respected engineer who was part of the team that helped build up Acoustic Energy many years ago told me about why deep bass properly done helps mids. Apparently, when a small speaker struggles to put out bass, the bass wave is not smooth and screws around in the room with the upper frequency waves. When a sub is properly integrated into the room, the sheer force of the sub is able to smooth out the lower frequency waves in the room which has benefits for upper frequency wave forms in the room. i hope i repeated that correctly...i apologize if i didnt, but that was what i thought had been explained to me in terms of why my Velodyne sub (set up right) might actually provide benefit to the mids of the Wilson Grand Slamms.

Let me find a taller pair of boots before I get to answering this one...

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The short answer is that someone obviously tried to explain something they observed but didn't know the reason behind it. It's certainly possible that what is above was not what the engineer intended to communicate, but I've seen even wilder explanations of phenomena discussed. I wish more were willing to just say "I'm not sure why, but I observed this: ..." We would have far fewer cases of over-reaching attempts at a technical explanations of the why. That does not mean there are not real benefits to adding low frequency extension to a system. I would suggest that we greatly underestimate the significance of modest in magnitude, but wide bandwidth changes in system response or balance.

 

[Mark Seaton]

While I agree that big speakers are better in big rooms, this is going to require further, and verifiable explanation....

It would probably be more useful to first examine why there are many observations that big speakers work better in larger rooms. This is often the case, but it is not a rule. It is more a function of likely, but not guaranteed, acoustic behavior from a loudspeaker consisting of drivers with greater physical separation.

First, let me make sure I understand what is being said: content happening below 50hz effects the frequency response of content above 1khz? Deep bass adds presence to trebles? That's going to take some 'splainin', and it ain't harmonic overtones, because if the overtones of a sound thats fundamental is deep are high, and they are captured on the recording, they will be reproduced by the transducer that plays those frequencies, regardless of the presence of another transducer capable of reproducing the fundamental.

Scale? Sure. This? I have my doubts.

Tim

Within any condition we listen, two sound waveforms present at the same location will not affect the energy of the other. There may be local cancellation, but as an example, you can cross paths of two very directional speakers where the point of crossing/overlap has no effect on what comes out (you only hear the speaker aimed at you). Obviously <50Hz sound won't change the response at high frequencies, especially coming from separate devices. That is not to say that adding or extending bass content won't affect the perception of real sounds.

A subjectively bright speaker could just as easily be the result of a rising or elevated tweeter response as it could be from a depressed midbass region. Balance, by definition, is a relative thing!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There is a difference between Frequency Response and perception of an audio signal. Neither MikeL or I claimed that the the Frequency Response changed. I observed a better representation of the treble when the bass was taken care of.

Frantz, I don't doubt for a second that you perceive a better representation of the treble when the bass is well-controlled. There are very good reasons why that could be the case. What I doubt is that the treble gets better when bass is merely added to a presentation that already had everything above 50 - 60hz. Regarding the notion that deep bass brings midrange and treble overtones to the playback that were not being played by the midrange and treble drivers before the bass drivers were added, I challenge that, as it makes no sense at all. I thought that's what Mike was saying. If not, my apologies.

Perceptions? Perceptions are fraught with psychology. We can perceive almost anything we can imagine.

Tim

 

[RBFC]

I'd also posit that even "perfect" treble may sound imbalanced when other aspects of the frequency spectrum are not correct, regardless of driver complement.

Lee

 

[FrantzM]

Tim

I struggled mightily to express the fact that better bass brings better overall reproduction including bettr perceived treble .. I did not mean to imply (nor do I think I did ) that adding bass adds to the treble in term of response .. it does the overall reproduction, hence perception of instrument sound ... I would think outside of any psychological bias ... Not that I have seen any such measurements but I see it as eminently measurable ...
We are in some agreement here

 

[fas42]

listen to a flute, brush strokes or even a triangle and turn a subwoofer on and off

This one gets me. Are you suggesting that the tingle of a lone triangle struck in an anechoic chamber will sound better with subwoofer on? If it does, I would suggest that what's happening is that the word "anechoic" is relative, and the natural, very low frequency "noise" intrinsic to the recording space has been picked up by the microphone and is being reproduced. This "feels" more natural, and so is interpreted by the ear/brain as being better sound.

Frank

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This one gets me. Are you suggesting that tingle of a lone triangle struck in an anechoic chamber will sound better with subwoofer on? If it does, I would suggest that what's happening is that the word "anechoic" is relative, and the natural, very low frequency "noise" intrinsic to the recording space has been picked up by the microphone and is being reproduced. This "feels" more natural, and so is interpreted by the ear/brain as being better sound.

Frank

i really don't know about anechoic chambers.....those instruments would not be recorded in an anechoic chamber in any case.

i'm saying that a full range speaker system that has linear bass will reproduce these solo instruments better than a 2-way with limited bass performance. even though you would think there is no musical information from those instruments in those low bass frequencies. sure; there are also advantages in reproducing the ambience with deep bass capability. and it's difficult to separate ambience from overtones.

i specifically have a demo track with lots of triangle playing, Pachelbel/Canon in D, track 16 on the FIM demo disc 'This is K2HD sound!' it's also track 16 on the FIM SACD Audiophile Reference IV. i also have a test pressing Lp of the full album. it's an analog recording.

the triangles have this decay which is very well recorded and is very revealing of treble performance. and yes, absolutely. when my bass performance improves these triangles sound better.

track 15 on the SACD demo disk has the brush strokes which can also make my case.

these are just 2 that quickly come to mind that many here likely have too.

 

[fas42]

who actually likes bass rumble??? or would they prefer tight, taut and articulate bass instead??

As has been discussed here before, bass by itself IS just rumble. Disconnect the treble and midrange drivers on a very high end speaker, and that "tight, taut and articulate bass" will completely disappear, all you will get is burbling!

I chose to quote this post of yours, I was initially was grabbed by an earlier one that said something like 'a good pair of speaker stuck on a poor preceding chain' (so apologies if it has been misquoted).

Well, I guess it all depends on where you believe the importances in audio lie. I have chosen to put ALL of my energies into the speakers and room, frankly I do not care for anything earlier in the chain.

Then I believe you will be trapped by the 'garbage in, garbage out' principle. Your highly tuned speakers will perfectly reproduce every imperfection in the chain early on, and a very high percentage of recordings will sound terrible ...

The effortless ability of a system to move air, that is what gives you headroom and clean sound, not some 5 inch driver masquerading as bass (notwithstanding the excellent magazine reviews)

This is one thing that works in favour of a 3 way setup. Trying to ask a small driver to do too much in the bass region will obviously not help to minimise distortion. But, as I emphasised in the original post, it's all about the overall quality of the system, so, yes, a badly driven tiny speaker will sound a lot worse than a well driven large, high end speaker.

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim

I struggled mightily to express the fact that better bass brings better overall reproduction including bettr perceived treble .. I did not mean to imply (nor do I think I did ) that adding bass adds to the treble in term of response .. it does the overall reproduction, hence perception of instrument sound ... I would think outside of any psychological bias ... Not that I have seen any such measurements but I see it as eminently measurable ...
We are in some agreement here

I didn't think you were saying that, Frantz. I got that impression from one of Mike's posts.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As has been discussed here before, bass by itself IS just rumble. Disconnect the treble and midrange drivers on a very high end speaker, and that "tight, taut and articulate bass" will completely disappear, all you will get is burbling!

Here in my semi-retirement, I can, for the first time since I was about 20, afford to work in audio retailing again. I sell very good, if not always what WB would call "high-end," AV systems. I can walk into the speaker studio at the store any day and do exactly what you're describing -- turn off the treble and midrange, turn up the volume, then cycle through the subwoofers in the room, listening only to the deep bass. It is how I demonstrate subs to customers interested in reproducing music, not explosions and train wrecks, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are dead wrong. If your tight, articulate bass disappears into burbling when you turn off the mids and trebles, you never had tight, articulate bass in the first place. You had burbling, one-note bass all along and just didn't know how to discern it from the low mids. I can also tell you that bass that is music, that is not burbling, one-note grunt made to shake the floors of home theater rooms, does not always come from big, powerful, sealed cabinet subs.

There are a plethora of surprises in audio if you have enough of an opportunity to listen, and you take advantage of it.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Burbling?

 

[fas42]

Burbling?

Artistic licence ...

cycle through the subwoofers in the room, listening only to the deep bass.

Sounds like the subwoofers are carrying on well into midbass range and higher, and/or the distortion levels are decent enough to add meat to the sound. If the crossover slope is very mild or non-existant, and frequency set high, then you can get a woofer to do a fair resemblence to a poor full range speaker. A very sharp cutoff at around 50Hz or so on a very high quality driver, minimal distortion, so that you only truly heard deep bass, would be quite eye opening as an experience ...

Frnak

 

[terryj]

A question of semantics, perhaps. Call it boom or rumble or a mid-bass hump or...musical...I find that many people prefer it and, evidently, so do the many speaker manufacturers who engineer it into their offerings. And we're not just talking about midfi offerings.

thanks PP. However, given later responses from frank I feel we are talking things other than mid bass hump. And, (if only me) I was not talking about humps or non smooth, I think I actually pulled him up on that point. And I would hope here that *most* of the competent systems have the room modes sorted and handled. I agree that on most audiophile forums this is completely overlooked or ignored.

I think it works both ways, but I get Frank's point. Harsh, zingy trebles spoil the whole soup.

interesting...I reckon it is kinda easy to get decent treble, the getting of decent bass is hard (and expensive). Maybe another way to put it, you gotta work hard to get poor treble, gotta work hard to get good bass. For sure there are differing degrees of treble quality, not trying to suggest otherwise, but the entry bar is not *that* high.

As has been discussed here before, bass by itself IS just rumble. Disconnect the treble and midrange drivers on a very high end speaker, and that "tight, taut and articulate bass" will completely disappear, all you will get is burbling!

Well, I think half the trouble is that you seem to be mixing terms. Firstly, just now you said Disconnect the treble and midrange drivers on a very high end speaker and we are left with rumble. No, we are left with bass, you seem (now) to be talking subwoofer territory. What are the crossover points you have in mind?? (not defined, and surely will impact on the perceived rumble you speak of) Later, somewhere, you mention 50 hz...well I personally do not regard that as bass territory, definitely sub territory.

Yes, I agree that to hear a sub on it's own can be like a rumble..I often suggest to people who ask if they should pay good money for a sub cable to listen to the sub alone, then they can make up their own mind whether an expensive cable will help.

Anyway, what of it?? Disconnect your bass and midrange drivers and listen to the treble...and be prepared to find there is 'nothing there'. Say cross at 3k, there is almost nothing emanating from the tweeter. All that tells us is how we need ALL the frequencies in order to form a coherent whole, and how weird it can sound without it (we may get away with midrange only, bit like a telephone).

Then I believe you will be trapped by the 'garbage in, garbage out' principle. Your highly tuned speakers will perfectly reproduce every imperfection in the chain early on, and a very high percentage of recordings will sound terrible ...

not my experience at all. I accept your perspective as true for you BTW. In fact, I use a cheap dvd player from cash converters (I only need digital out, into my deqx units), fifty bucks second hand. Four way plus subs, yet I don't care one whit for 'the quality of the amp'...whatever I have laying around is fine.

I get totally what franz and mike were trying to get across. I might not go as far as mike did when talking about sub on or off (and of course a lot of that depends on frequency and slope etc etc), yet I will stand by 'turn room correction on and off' and watch (listen) to what happens to the perception of mids and treble. The effects go FAR beyond mere bass perception, the entire frequency presentation changes.

I think a well known phenomenon to audio engineers and mixers???

One other effect of bass I have found is that the better the bass, the more enveloping the sound. Almost as if bass is the carrier wave for the rest of the spectrum, so when the bass is more immersive, so is the overall effect.

And another weird thing with bass, a single bigger driver gives a much better bass experience than multiple drivers. My bass drivers are 18's, and what's more they don't go that low at all (30 hz only), yet the subjective experience is completely different from any other audiophile bass I have heard...no matter that the LP 'graph looks the same'. I really have no idea why that is.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Perhaps it is a false interpretation of "burbling." On the best of the subs, you can still hear a distinct bass line. You have to listen for it, but it's not just one note. The line is there. Even with the crossover set quite low. On the worst, it's not only one note, it's one note that doesn't quite know where it begins and ends.

Tim

 

[fas42]

And another weird thing with bass, a single bigger driver gives a much better bass experience than multiple drivers. My bass drivers are 18's, and what's more they don't go that low at all (30 hz only), yet the subjective experience is completely different from any other audiophile bass I have heard

My suspicion is that the distortion spectrum of that 18" is very different from the multiple driver setup, since most 18" drivers are not cheap, probably that unit is doing a better job there.

The thread I was referring to before was one where the concept of "fast" bass came up, which I would associate with the terms "tight , taut", and as Mark Seaton confirmed these qualities are derived from the contribution of the midrange and treble.

An interesting experiment I mentioned previously was carried out to test peoples' sensitivities to distortion as a function of frequency, by Geddes I believe, and the fascinating thing was that on average listener's ability to detect bass distortion was abysmal: a single low bass tone was presented in the first case, another bass tone not harmonically related was added at the same level to the first as the second case and the listeners could not pick a difference!

Frank

 

[terryj]

My suspicion is that the distortion spectrum of that 18" is very different from the multiple driver setup, since most 18" drivers are not cheap, probably that unit is doing a better job there.

maybe frank, I really don't know. It is however quite a talking point when people first hear it, better or worse is not the point, it is so different that people notice.

having said that, I too have read what earle says about distortion etc, and have also read data about how little we notice distortion in the bass.....and if that is true then it does not explain the difference between my 18's and 'normal' stereo on the basis of distortion spectrum does it??

For all I know it may have more to do with 'the same' bass capability from one point source than the same 'bass capability' spread out in space.

The thread I was referring to before was one where the concept of "fast" bass came up, which I would associate with the terms "tight , taut", and as Mark Seaton confirmed these qualities are derived from the contribution of the midrange and treble.

yeah, was browsing again tonight and realised that I may have mixed a few threads together, a bit of a blur.

 

[JackD201]

Frantz, I don't doubt for a second that you perceive a better representation of the treble when the bass is well-controlled. There are very good reasons why that could be the case. What I doubt is that the treble gets better when bass is merely added to a presentation that already had everything above 50 - 60hz. Regarding the notion that deep bass brings midrange and treble overtones to the playback that were not being played by the midrange and treble drivers before the bass drivers were added, I challenge that, as it makes no sense at all. I thought that's what Mike was saying. If not, my apologies.

Perceptions? Perceptions are fraught with psychology. We can perceive almost anything we can imagine.

Tim

Is not our perceptions our only links to reality? Our senses can be fooled but they're all we've got. Besides, there is scientific basis for these perceptual correlations. It's no different from taste and sight. In a word, contrasts. I've done my share of fooling around in studios and PA too Tim. I concur with Frantz and Mike. The shimmer in the highs comes out when the bass bins go online.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Our senses can be fooled but they're all we've got....shimmer in the highs comes out when the bass bins go online.

Then all I can tell you is someone's senses are being fooled. Mine? Yours? It's impossible to be sure if you don't believe in measurement. If you do, all you'd have to do is measure the FR from the listening seat. Turn on the subs. Does the FR of the highs change? You have your answer.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Like Frantz said Tim, perceived not measured. We're talking about what a human brain does to the mix of signals not what the signals are before the brain deals with it. It is an area that has yet to be mapped out. Fletcher-Munson is just the tip of the iceberg. For now we only have our observations, lest someone volunteer to have a probe stuck in his head. Musically, counterpoint comes to mind. One tone emphasizes another. The problem with a Hi-Fi discussion is that we talk in terms of three bands, highs, mids and lows. In music we react instinctively to interactions across one full range or one cut up into a near infinite number of bands. Here's the thing, if you play a bass frequency and a treble frequency at the same time, they won't provide contrast but alternate them in rhythm and they do.

There's good reason Bass should be spelled Base. It is the foundation. Now turn off YOUR sub off and yes you have your answer and it will be exactly the same as mine. So, all by themselves, your mids and highs being true to your signal, overall, even in the most basic sense, is the representation better or not? Now tell me that perception wise bass does not make the treble better even if absolutely no part of an HF event's envelope shows up in your sub. Once you alter the context of an event's occurrence, so do you alter the perception of the event.

Why dis the mind and how it works? Measurements are meant to feed it not replace it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Like Frantz said Tim, perceived not measured. We're talking about what a human brain does to the mix of signals not what the signals are before the brain deals with it. It is an area that has yet to be mapped out. Fletcher-Munson is just the tip of the iceberg. For now we only have our observations, lest someone volunteer to have a probe stuck in his head. Musically, counterpoint comes to mind. One tone emphasizes another. The problem with a Hi-Fi discussion is that we talk in terms of three bands, highs, mids and lows. In music we react instinctively to interactions across one full range or one cut up into a near infinite number of bands. Here's the thing, if you play a bass frequency and a treble frequency at the same time, they won't provide contrast but alternate them in rhythm and they do.

I'm not really arguing with you Jack. Perception is a funny thing. There are perceptions that are fairly universal, like Fletcher-Munson. Then there are those that are very personal. I think this falls into the latter category. I don't question what you hear, but I don't hear it. Like I've said before, I have the opportunity to turn numerous subs on and off while numerous speaker systems are playing all kinds of music, every day. I've never heard the trebles get better with good bass, only get worse with bad bass. YMMV. And that one, of course, can be explained easily. Badly controlled bass gets into the mids badly and masks the information that should be there. Is there a term for this treble-enhancing phenomenon? I'd like to read up on it and understand why it evades me.

Tim