Living at the Extreme: I bought a Taiko Extreme and then this happened...

[Skanda]

thanks man! you have a killer system and i've learned alot following your posts.

just wanted to point out, before anyone gets the wrong idea: the "one-note" bass i mention is in the deepest of octaves - i would say 30-20hz range with 40hz being the absolute highest. very few tracks dig that deep and very few systems play cleanly down to those. given the magico, soulution, and kraft's rated specs i would guess that its more of a recording issue esp as a lot of the music i like seems to focus the bass on the more punchy 70-50hz range. i personally love deep, rolling bass in the 50-40hz range - my love of techno is very much related to this haha

 

[Steve Williams]

as I said yesterday ,out of the box it sounds terrific and only gets better with time

I probably have the simplest and most unorthodox network than most everyone here and I can say that I don't feel I am leaving anything on the table as some are suggesting.The only addition I used were LPS for my cable modem as well as my satellite. I stream wireless from my router to the satellite in my sound system and use copper from the satellite to the Extreme. It is so good that it changed the way I listen to music

And one last thought. I don't know anything about waverMay and am sure it must be excellent as well.However what Extreme owners get that no other non Extreme owners get is Emile, who IMO has endless energy, coupled with a brilliant mind and an overwhelming desire that the Extreme be the best server out there. As a result Emile’s handwriting on the wall with respect to the downturn in SQ coming from Roon with each new update.Emile took the bull by the horns and hired a team which in 6-8 weeks completely designed the Taiko Audio Server which IMO is the only path to follow as TAS now at its inception is already somewhat better than Roon

The fact that the Extreme will come loaded with both Roon as well as TAS plus the upcoming Taiko remote that can be had at the App Store when it comes available, will allow the user to pick and choose. I know that Emile's goal is to create his TAS that will always best Roon. Knowing Emile and what he represents, for me TAS is the path that I am gong to follow because Emile to date has delivered on every one of his promises. TAS is the future. Roon is the present

 

[spiritofmusic]

Skanda, keep it up. I'll likely learn more from your pretty informal review in non optimised setting w non audiophile music, in comparison to another well engineered server.

 

[Blackmorec]

i wouldn't go so far as to say it is hobbled. i can't throw more money into my system right now so I will have to make do with what's there right now...which i feel is pretty nice stuff that i've acquired over the years. there's no end goal for me in audio, i like to try new gear and so long as i'm enjoying it i'm headed in the right direction.

i'll up the ancillaries but i also have my set up in my living room so i need to be mindful of cable management etc. given the price difference i want to see what the extreme can do vs the rockna. network ancillaries and better cables would improve the rockna too so i figure it's still fair. i figure i'm not the only person in situation/many potential extreme customers want to know what it can do out of the box and plopped in the system while they optimize later. if someone's already optimized in anticipation they can assume that the extreme will be even more impactful in their system. i'm also waiting for a consensus...the jcat m12 stuff looks cool but it's also a good chunk of the extreme's cost. switches seem cheap but now it seems like it makes most sense to wait for Emile's Taiko Switch.

in my own audio journey i've tended to barbell systems with a very nice piece and then building around it...then buying another echelon above piece and then upgrading around that. $ for $ cables have had the least (i won't say no) impact in my system so i usually let it fall to the side. i'm just not interested in that side of things *shrug*. Tom usually hooks me up on wireworld which has good price points for me, he has other brands but they tend to be more expensive and i'm not sure that's something I want to spend money on until I have a fully dedicated and acoustically treated room.

i'm glad you brought this up because this is another thing i struggle with professional reviews: not everyone has a fully optimized chain, not everyone has top flight cables, and not everyone has a perfect room. if gear 100% requires that to show it's merit, then it's not for me because there is plenty of gear out there that sounds truly exceptional in unoptimized environments and that's fun for the owner too as there is a natural path forward for squeezing more performance out of their rigs.

Hey Skanda, I reread my post and it comes across as aggressive and critical....which I had not at all intended. Hobbled in a sense means crippled and that‘s absolutely not what I meant....about as far from it as you could get actually. So please accept my apology for the very poorly phrased reply.
You’re in exactly the position I was in 2 years ago with an absolutely kick-ass system and a Nascent network infrastructure. I’m 100% certain that your system will sound utterly fantasic in its current set-up.....all I really wanted to say was that the fantastic sound is really only the beginning of the road and with a system as revealing as yours you can astound even yourself with just how good you can make it with a few optimizations. That’s the kernel of the message I intended to send.

 

[microstrip]

Oh, just an unremarkable all-Roksan system. £9k total in 1997.
My need to not follow the crowd meant I swerved the uber logical choice at the time, Linn Sondek LP12 tt.

You could have got a Pink Triangle ...

 

[bonzo75]

Pink triangle anniversary is possibly the highest sonics/price ratio... Low price, suspended, very musical. But apparently a ball ache to keep constantly setting up

 

[matthias]

i struggle with professional reviews: not everyone has a fully optimized chain, not everyone has top flight cables, and not everyone has a perfect room. if gear 100% requires that to show it's merit, then it's not for me because there is plenty of gear out there that sounds truly exceptional in unoptimized environments and that's fun for the owner too as there is a natural path forward for squeezing more performance out of their rigs.

Agree,
btw very interesting what Emile says on the FAQ section of the TA HP:

How much of an improvement can I expect from network tweaks relatively speaking?

Approximately:
-relative to a high quality powercord versus a stock powercord 35%
-relative to good equipment support 25%
-relative to high quality USB cables 30%

Matt

 

[austinpop]

Enjoying reading about your experiences, @Skanda! Looking forward to more installments...

 

[Skanda]

Hey Skanda, I reread my post and it comes across as aggressive and critical....which I had not at all intended. Hobbled in a sense means crippled and that‘s absolutely not what I meant....about as far from it as you could get actually. So please accept my apology for the very poorly phrased reply.
You’re in exactly the position I was in 2 years ago with an absolutely kick-ass system and a Nascent network infrastructure. I’m 100% certain that your system will sound utterly fantasic in its current set-up.....all I really wanted to say was that the fantastic sound is really only the beginning of the road and with a system as revealing as yours you can astound even yourself with just how good you can make it with a few optimizations. That’s the kernel of the message I intended to send.

no stress man, all good and no need for an apology either. i appreciate the clarification.

thanks @austinpop, i've been listening this morning but mostly distracted with work. hoping to get some free time tomorrow afternoon or saturday to. in the meanwhile, the burn in hours continue

 

[oldmustang]

Great playlist so far, Skanda, and even better write-up of what you're hearing. Please keep including the tracks you're listening to -- my tastes in music are wide-ranging but as an old guy I sometimes don't know where to look to find great new (to me) stuff in genres I haven't explored very much. So, very much appreciated!

If I may return the favor -- a track that absolutely trips me out every time I listen is A$AP Rocky's L$D



With the Extreme the bass spreads out in waves to entirely fill the room forming a cushion I just float away on. . .

Thanks for the great write-up!

Steve Z

 

[Skanda]

Great playlist so far, Skanda, and even better write-up of what you're hearing. Please keep including the tracks you're listening to -- my tastes in music are wide-ranging but as an old guy I sometimes don't know where to look to find great new (to me) stuff in genres I haven't explored very much. So, very much appreciated!

If I may return the favor -- a track that absolutely trips me out every time I listen is A$AP Rocky's L$D

View attachment 67310

With the Extreme the bass spreads out in waves to entirely fill the room forming a cushion I just float away on. . .

Thanks for the great write-up!

Steve Z

huge fan of A$AP Rocky. I have been hunting for a high quality version of Live.Love.ASAP. mixtape for so long, and alas, all i can find is 320kbps rips which are clearly not natively 320kbps. AT.LONG.LAST. was a fantastic album all around and one of his underrated works - lots of experimentation in sound styles and the death of Yams leading up to the album make it even more important in the Rocky discography as this was the last album they collaborated on.

asap rocky, the weeknd (trilogy is one of my favorite albums. i have weeks where i listen to it multiple times a week), pop smoke, juice wrld, young thug, and future were all playing this morning. it was sounding good but i'm looking forward to really listening closely soon.

 

[oldmustang]

huge fan of A$AP Rocky. I have been hunting for a high quality version of Live.Love.ASAP. mixtape for so long, and alas, all i can find is 320kbps rips which are clearly not natively 320kbps. AT.LONG.LAST. was a fantastic album all around and one of his underrated works - lots of experimentation in sound styles and the death of Yams leading up to the album make it even more important in the Rocky discography as this was the last album they collaborated on.

asap rocky, the weeknd (trilogy is one of my favorite albums. i have weeks where i listen to it multiple times a week), pop smoke, juice wrld, young thug, and future were all playing this morning. it was sounding good but i'm looking forward to really listening closely soon.

Glad you enjoy A$AP. His Live.Love.A$AP is pretty rare. There are two copies on Discogs.com right now claiming to be the original self-released version on CDR but I couldn't vouch for provenance. Pricey ($50-60 USD), but things like this can be expensive. I looked for years for a copy of G.O.L.'s Sensations of Tone at a reasonable price and finally bit the bullet and paid the collectors' rate. Glad I did.

Steve Z

 

[Blackmorec]

Agree,
btw very interesting what Emile says on the FAQ section of the TA HP:

How much of an improvement can I expect from network tweaks relatively speaking?

Approximately:
-relative to a high quality powercord versus a stock powercord 35%
-relative to good equipment support 25%
-relative to high quality USB cables 30%

Matt

Hey Matt,
The important point not to miss is that there are several network tweaks and their implementations and generally speaking the improvements they deliver are additive....one builds on another. So exactly like adding power cords, equipment and USB cables. How much of an improvement you get and whether a tweak works depends a lot on the quality of hard and software employed, so putting values could be plus or minus 50% or more, depending on the environment in which the tweaks are performed and level of refinements applied.
But I can state that network refinement is the ‘tweak that keeps on giving. And they’re the tweaks that’ll take you from ‘best I’ve ever heard’ to ‘I had no idea this level of SQ was possible from regular digital files’

Let me give you example. 128kbps Internet Radio. This can sound rather limited and provide SQ that‘s really only good enough for warming up systems. Or it can provide SQ that‘s absolutely captivating and does everything a good audiophile system should do, depending on the quality of network stream that’s delivering the bits.

 

[Blackmorec]

as I said yesterday ,out of the box it sounds terrific and only gets better with time

I probably have the simplest and most unorthodox network than most everyone here and I can say that I don't feel I am leaving anything on the table as some are suggesting.The only addition I used were LPS for my cable modem as well as my satellite. I stream wireless from my router to the satellite in my sound system and use copper from the satellite to the Extreme. It is so good that it changed the way I listen to music

And one last thought. I don't know anything about waverMay and am sure it must be excellent as well.However what Extreme owners get that no other non Extreme owners get is Emile, who IMO has endless energy, coupled with a brilliant mind and an overwhelming desire that the Extreme be the best server out there. As a result Emile’s handwriting on the wall with respect to the downturn in SQ coming from Roon with each new update.Emile took the bull by the horns and hired a team which in 6-8 weeks completely designed the Taiko Audio Server which IMO is the only path to follow as TAS now at its inception is already somewhat better than Roon

The fact that the Extreme will come loaded with both Roon as well as TAS plus the upcoming Taiko remote that can be had at the App Store when it comes available, will allow the user to pick and choose. I know that Emile's goal is to create his TAS that will always best Roon. Knowing Emile and what he represents, for me TAS is the path that I am gong to follow because Emile to date has delivered on every one of his promises. TAS is the future. Roon is the present

Hi Steve,
A bog standard network would usually comprise the ISP receiving device (modem, cable modem + router) and an ethernet cable or wireless connection to your hi-fi. In your system, you have an upgraded router, on a low noise power supply, you have complete galvanic isolation thanks to the wireless component, you have an LPS on you Orbi satellite and no doubt you use a high quality, well screened cable between your Orbi and your Extreme. In short, a very simple, well optimised, low noise network stream.
When I was installing my system, I was essentially starting from scratch with only a rather crappy ISP modem/router and weakish wi-fi to everything. Because I was starting from scratch and because we have 3 big consumer electronics stores within 10 miles of where I live, I could try out a whole plethora of different network strategies and devices, including a $2000 ethernet cable of known quality between my router and system (I actually ordered this with my system as i was convinced wired ethernet would prove to be superior) But, for me, by far the best solution in terms of SQ was wireless. I was totally biased against wireless, given its use of cheap-as-chips mass consumer grade electronics and the fact its a huge source of RFI, but the evidence of what I heard didn’t lie. By far the most transparent, natural and impactful listening experience was provided by wi-fi. And it wasn’t just good, it was magical.
Adding LPS power supplies uplifted the performance yet further, a high quality router with hi-fi dedicated 5GHz channel the same and the quality of each cable in the system had a positive impact. Placing modems, routers and power supplies of specialist anti-vibration platforms brought additional small but useful improvements to the point my system now satisfies my every audiophile wish and does nothing I don‘t like. For me, the big acid test of a system are the announcers‘ voices on Radio Swiss Classic. With 128kbps, getting them to sound completely natural and neutral requires an extremely well sorted network. If you ever want to hear the effects of break-in or running-in, just try a before and after with the voices on this radio channel and you’ll see exactly what I mean.
What you have in your system is a very simple but well sorted, low-conducted-noise data stream to your system. Can it be improved? Almost certainly yes, but if you’re not feeling the need, why bother? At some point one really should stop and just enjoy what one’s built, otherwise you‘re constantly waiting for something or other to burn-in. I’ve spent almost 2 years of listening time waiting for the magic to return after an upgrade. At some point that interferes with the listening experience rather than improving it, so shouting ’Stick’ at some point is a very valid and important thing to do. Upgrading can become a compulsion

 

[matthias]

Hey Matt,
The important point not to miss is that there are several network tweaks and their implementations and generally speaking the improvements they deliver are additive....one builds on another. So exactly like adding power cords, equipment and USB cables. How much of an improvement you get and whether a tweak works depends a lot on the quality of hard and software employed, so putting values could be plus or minus 50% or more, depending on the environment in which the tweaks are performed and level of refinements applied.
But I can state that network refinement is the ‘tweak that keeps on giving. And they’re the tweaks that’ll take you from ‘best I’ve ever heard’ to ‘I had no idea this level of SQ was possible from regular digital files’

Let me give you example. 128kbps Internet Radio. This can sound rather limited and provide SQ that‘s really only good only for warming up systems. Or it can provide SQ that absolutely captivating and does everything a good audiophile system should do, depending on the quality of network stream that’s delivering the bits.

Hi Blackmorec,

I am sure that Emile tried with the Extreme more than any Extreme owner and I believe him when he claims that the impact of network tweaks on the performance of the Extreme is relatively speaking low.

I am just wondering why this is the case and why maybe network tweaking has a greater impact on the Innuos Statement?

Matt

 

[Blackmorec]

Hi Blackmorec,

I am sure that Emile tried with the Extreme more than any Extreme owner and I believe him when he claims that the impact of network tweaks on the performance of the Extreme is relatively speaking low.

I am just wondering why this is the case and why maybe network tweaking has a greater impact on the Innuos Statement?

Matt

Hi Matt,

Entirely possible! The Extreme has an awful lot of processing power and reserves with which to deal with network nasties, and as a consequence many processes are nicely isolated from one another at the CPU level. On the other hand, Extreme users report major SQ improvements when implementing certain network tweaks. If you go back to the start of this thread, Emile was at pains to tell everyone that his network was not particularly well optimised. His work with the Extreme is therefore mainly performed in a rather average network environment. This is of course highly beneficial as it means that non-technical people without network expertise can get true SoTA results from an Extreme without any real optimisation being necessary. The Extreme works brilliantly in spite of a non-optimised network, which is exactly what you want.

I have no idea how the network sensitivity of the Innuos Statement compares with the Extreme. I do know that the Innuos responds extremely positively to every improvement to network power, isolation, vibration control and cabling quality. On the other hand I have read rave review from Extreme owners‘ network tweaks that sound remarkably similar to my own experiences.
On installation, my Innuos Zenith SE sounded really magical and it set new standards for Digital replay, both in my home and in my experience. But that initial sound, while exceptional in the wider hi-fi context, paled when compared to what i eventually got with a fully treated network. Continuing on the same path with the Statement brought similar results.

Its entirely possible that the clean-up that happens outside the Innuos, happens inside the Extreme, but that’s not what I’m reading from Extreme users who tune their networks. If you compare my reports about network tuning with say Rhapsody’s, you’ll find an awful lot of similarities, even though the specific approaches to tuning were different.

 

[matthias]

For instance, I connected the Waversa router directly to the Extreme, by-passing the 2 JCAT M12 switches and two each LPSs feeding the M12s. That lasted about 2 minutes. Night and day.

Thanks, so I am very curious about multiple Taiko switches.

Matt

 

[Skanda]

hey guys, appreciate the feedback but i am politely requesting that we keep the network stuff to a minimum here. there is a separate thread for that and i want potential extreme customers to have the ability to read through one guy's/one system's impacts without falling down a wormhole of network updates. i believe your experiences and would like to experiment with them as well but i don't have the time or interest at the moment.

however, i encourage further participation and hope i am not coming off prickly. i'm here to discuss and learn but the network stuff is understood, noted, and not currently my focus. if you have some software/roon output tweaks to rec, or music, or similar/different experiences to share please do. the more the merrier

 

[Rhapsody]

hey guys, appreciate the feedback but i am politely requesting that we keep the network stuff to a minimum here. there is a separate thread for that and i want potential extreme customers to have the ability to read through one guy's/one system's impacts without falling down a wormhole of network updates. i believe your experiences and would like to experiment with them as well but i don't have the time or interest at the moment.

however, i encourage further participation and hope i am not coming off prickly. i'm here to discuss and learn but the network stuff is understood, noted, and not currently my focus. if you have some software/roon output tweaks to rec, or music, or similar/different experiences to share please do. the more the merrier

I apologize, I deleted my network post. I did not even realize it was not a network thread as there were a few posts regarding the networks.

 

[Skanda]

I apologize, I deleted my network post. I did not even realize it was not a network thread as there were a few posts regarding the networks.

no worries man and no need to delete. happy to have you here! as someone who's been through the taiko burn in process, anything i should be looking out for? i've probably put about 20hours on it in 3 days just letting it play