Levinson C Wave Technology

[Kingrex]

Does anyone understand what this technology really is. Or have access to the actual patent. I bought this up on a Whatapp group and the core became so condescending, angry and heals in the sand I decided to exit the group and delete the link. All I was trying to find out was, what does C Wave do? Press and words from ML are extremely vague.

On a deeper level, the concept of music and health is interesting. Music has been talked of as a way to open your heart. Relax your mind. Clense you being. Yet the anger and vitriol I experienced on the whatapp group that anyone would try and measure a physical respone to our bodies perception of sound waves hitting it was shocking. On some level, I wonder if the main agitation to others was a conflict of interest to their financial position as a dealer of digital equipment. If in fact medical analysis of sonic waves found digitally created music caused adverse physical responses in your body, what would the more educated consumer do?

 

[Kingrex]

Nothing. No love for Mark Levinson.
I tried looking further and came up with nothing. I don't know if there is really a patent or just talk.
Even ChatGPT has nothing to say outside it knows of few technology that fill in the missing spaces in a digital sine wave. And those are more sort of an EQ filling the space.

 

[wil]

Does anyone understand what this technology really is. Or have access to the actual patent. I bought this up on a Whatapp group and the core became so condescending, angry and heals in the sand I decided to exit the group and delete the link. All I was trying to find out was, what does C Wave do? Press and words from ML are extremely vague.

On a deeper level, the concept of music and health is interesting. Music has been talked of as a way to open your heart. Relax your mind. Clense you being. Yet the anger and vitriol I experienced on the whatapp group that anyone would try and measure a physical respone to our bodies perception of sound waves hitting it was shocking. On some level, I wonder if the main agitation to others was a conflict of interest to their financial position as a dealer of digital equipment. If in fact medical analysis of sonic waves found digitally created music caused adverse physical responses in your body, what would the more educated consumer do?

Rex, I’m guessing the What’s App group pushback was coming from BACCH users?

Levinson's Cello Pallette, C Wave , Mighty Cat and Master Class implementations are acknowledged by ML to be based on the work of Dick Burwen. https://www.burwenaudio.com/Biography.html.

I think (but may have this wrong) that Burwen's work has to do with injecting ambient information into the high frequencies?

I approach ML's ( aka Daniel Hertz) products with 40% intrigue and 60% trepidation. The white paper he produced on C Wave seems ultra light on substance for something promoted to be so revolutionary. Red Flag for me!

http://www.danielhertz.com/images/documents/daniel-hertz-c-wave-measurments-and-audio.pdf

 

[Kingrex]

I read that white paper too Wil. And I noted the comment by the engineer was pertaining to MP3 sounding much closer to his 24/172 when processed by the Hertz chip and software. Well, I am very aware when I am listening to MP3. I get pissed off when I listen to MP3. I don't need probes hooked up to me to realize that. I have not seen anything talking about applying the technology to Redbook files. There is nothing in the white paper talking about what sort of file was used either. I don't even see much feedback on the sonics. I see talk about the release of the product and vague talk of the tech. But no one goes on to discuss what they hear.

It would be nice if there were something to it. In the sense of one, a better way to process a digital sine wave. And second, is there any neurological impacts of digital technology.

Something I have noticed with my system. If I put my listening hat on and play good digital or good vinyl, I don't know I could tell them apart. They are both great. But I have recently noticed, if I have a record on, I end up putting down my phone or whatever I may be doing, I turn up the volume and will listen to a whole record side. I don't do that with digital. With digital I leave the volume around average distracted listening and keep reading my phone or doing other stuff. Something about the vinyl (in my system) suck me in.

 

[Another Johnson]

Here’s an interview

Interview - Mark Levinson about C Wave Technology

We interviewed Mark Levinson about his C Wave Technology that has finally been implemented in his Maria amplifier.

www.alpha-audio.net

It is low on explanatory content.

It reminds me of the logic behind the dCS Ring DAC patent. The Ring DAC is supposed to be filling in information that has been lost in the first pass through a standard DAC.

It also reminds me of MQA. It is supposed to make an MP3 sound like the true master.

 

[Another Johnson]

Why would real time monitoring of liver and kidney function be good descriptors? How do you even do this in real time? Why would the number 51 (51 what?) be optimal? Why is 40 horrible and 60 is OK?

There are far more questions raised than answers given. It is confusing to tie this to the brand Mark Levinson. I suppose his name is his name, but his name as a brand is not his property.

He appears to be the new owner of a company called Daniel Hertz.

Daniel Hertz audio systems. Mark Levinson new company

Buy Mark’s dream. Audio legend Mark Levinson, founder of Daniel Hertz, and his team have developed disruptive audio technology that delivers a new level of natural sound and emotion in music reproduction from all formats including streaming.

danielhertz.com

 

[Kingrex]

The health side is what got everyone stirred up. But that is an interesting aspect. People talk about relaxing or being very active in listening. On a level we are aware of the physical changes we experience when listening. A quick look at ChatGBT and there has been a number of aspects of physical body reactions to music. ML seems to be trying to take a measurement. How accurate these are I don't know. But its interesting he is trying. It is also why I brought up the reference to MP3. That is a significantly lower resolution format that your brain might be sensing something is different. I don't know at what point its to fine to be recognized and cause a reaction. I believe I am well aware when Spotify is playing and I turn it down or off if I am actually going to sit and listen. As background while working around the house its fine.

 

[RnRmf]

I'm also curious what device he refers to in one of his videos that is able to determine with 100% accuracy whether an LP is digitally sourced.

 

[wil]

The health side is what got everyone stirred up. But that is an interesting aspect. People talk about relaxing or being very active in listening. On a level we are aware of the physical changes we experience when listening. A quick look at ChatGBT and there has been a number of aspects of physical body reactions to music. ML seems to be trying to take a measurement. How accurate these are I don't know. But its interesting he is trying. It is also why I brought up the reference to MP3. That is a significantly lower resolution format that your brain might be sensing something is different. I don't know at what point its to fine to be recognized and cause a reaction. I believe I am well aware when Spotify is playing and I turn it down or off if I am actually going to sit and listen. As background while working around the house its fine.

If this is the case, it seems to be your digital is severely under-performing. No C Wave, BACCH, or other dsp will make much difference, imho.

 

[Another Johnson]

I’m sad to say it, but this industry is a hunting ground for people who are susceptible to claims like this … in the interview he admits it himself as he assures the viewer that the others are all charlatans, but he is calling them out because he’s not one of them. Note that C-Wave stands for “Continuous Wave.” And, according to the interview, the technique is simply adding some “reverb.” We all know that a touch of reverb can add a greater sense of presence (think palpable presence).

Who’s to say that some won’t like this … it’s good to have choices. Buy it if you like it. This hunting ground is full of lawful prey.

Lots of guys LOVED MQA. That’s OK. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[zerostargeneral]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[Kingrex]

If this is the case, it seems to be your digital is severely under-performing. No C Wave, BACCH, or other dsp will make much difference, imho.

I think you meant to say my vinyl is severly over performing.

 

[Rexp]

 

[Kingrex]

Well, it sounds like there isn't any cutting edge software.
It does sound like there is a chip with embedded software???

We do know software has a profound affect on what we hear with digital. Having the software embedded in the chip if that is where it is, may reduce strain or noise on the opersting system. I'm out on a limb here.

I am bummed I have seen no review talking about the sound. That may be a key indicator of what to expect.
I know a person going to listen to it. If he gets it, I hope he enjoys it.

 

[Kingrex]

I did hear him say no crossover and the amps directly coupled to the crossover. The sound on the video is pretty good compared to other video of systems i have listened too. Simple music. As in no large scale orchestra. But even my phone was revealing a lot of cymbal detail and percussion on drums. Not like a full horn. But it was tilted towards that instead of the more boxey sound from most dynamic driver systems I hear.
Liberty was slightly mid forward.

I think the complete speaker and amp and processor is around $135k to $200k. Real money. There are $12,000 and $35,000 units. They all seem to have actie crossovers. So its a full on digital setup. It may play very well. It would be interesting to sit it in a room with a VAC 200 and Acora and listen. I wonder what would punch higher.

oddly, for all his medical claims, you have no otion for pure digital with an active crossover.

That just made me ask a question in my mind. Is the C Chip running the active crossover too? Is part of the performance a high quality active crossover that is natural sounding?

 

[wil]

I think you meant to say my vinyl is severly over performing.

Good to hear! But if, as you describe, you're not drawn into the music with you're digital setup, it sounds to me like it's under-performing and not just relative to your vinyl set up.

 

[Kingrex]

Good to hear! But if, as you describe, you're not drawn into the music with you're digital setup, it sounds to me like it's under-performing and not just relative to your vinyl set up.

Lets turn every thread into digital vs vinyl. And we need to blame Ron for something too.

 

[wil]

The more I read about what ML is doing with C Wave, the more it looks like bs. Maybe the reverb algorithm creates a pleasant sound. I suspect the more compromised the digital sound, the bigger the delta of improvement the reverb will provide.

For me, what really sinks the credibility of the claims for "fixing PCM" or saving your liver, is the flimsy to completely absent technical/scientific substance to these claims. It just reeks of shallow internet health foo foo trying to mascaraed as science.

 

[Kingrex]

The more I read about what ML is doing with C Wave, the more it looks like bs. Maybe the reverb algorithm creates a pleasant sound. I suspect the more compromised the digital sound, the bigger the delta of improvement the reverb will provide.

For me, what really sinks the credibility of the claims for "fixing PCM" or saving your liver, is the flimsy to completely absent technical/scientific substance to these claims. It just reeks of shallow internet health foo foo trying to mascaraed as science.

Maybe so. But how do they measure the impacts of eastern medicine or meditation. Lots of people call it quack. I haven't gone to a western doctor for 30 years. I just had stem cells injected into my knees. Quackery by all western accounts. Yet the procedure I had has a 92% success with resolving torn meniscus.

Go to Chstgpt and ask it about measuring physical body reactions to music. I am not saying Chstgpt is accurate. But it does open a lot of doors for further investigation. The idea that music impacts our bodies in many ways is not new at all. People have been trying to measure it for some time.

I do agree, the process of his measurements seems to be intentionally vague which opens the door to speculation. There is no way for anyone else to repeat his tests.if he is not going to tell us in his white paper or other press release what he really did. How he set it up. What format of file did he use etc.

 

[wil]

Maybe so. But how do they measure the impacts of eastern medicine or meditation. Lots of people call it quack. I haven't gone to a western doctor for 30 years. I just had stem cells injected into my knees. Quackery by all western accounts. Yet the procedure I had has a 92% success with resolving torn meniscus.

Go to Chstgpt and ask it about measuring physical body reactions to music. I am not saying Chstgpt is accurate. But it does open a lot of doors for further investigation. The idea that music impacts our bodies in many ways is not new at all. People have been trying to measure it for some time.

I do agree, the process of his measurements seems to be intentionally vague which opens the door to speculation. There is no way for anyone else to repeat his tests.if he is not going to tell us in his white paper or other press release what he really did. How he set it up. What format of file did he use etc.

I don't dismiss what ML is presenting because of a eastern or western medicine prejudice one way or another. Eastern medicine or meditation for example can be measured in many ways. And in many ways not measured as well.

What bother's me about ML and the selling of C Wave is the slap dash, un-disciplined way he is presenting it. I can't take anything seriously about this because it comes off as a sales job. I can't respect claims about the health effects of an algorithm without a lot more than a few anecdotal reports.

Interesting about the stem cells for your meniscus! About a year ago I completely tore my meniscus in one knee. Went to see a surgeon and he had me scheduled for the repair. (He does about 5/day -- an assembly line operation). I got cold feet re the operation, cancelled it, and within a month my knee got steadily better without the help of surgery. I'm back to playing high level singles tennis on it 3-5 times a week, ( knock on wood!)