"Let's Take a Walk!"

[RBFC]

WARNING: THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY OF THE ACTIONS DEMONSTRATED UNLESS UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR

OK, now that we've got that out of the way, let's take a look at one of a series we photographed showing "atypical" gun disarms. While WBF will not sponsor topics/discussions revolving around the use/collection of firearms, being threatened with a firearm as coercion for a crime is pretty common. As a Navy Seal friend of mine says, "Crooks don't say, Give me your wallet or I'll punch you in the nose!" If we take a look around the self-defense world, we'll find most every program has a gun disarm that deals with the attacker standing directly in front of you and pointing the gun at you so that it's in your reach. If we actually consider that there are criminals that aren't COMPLETELY stupid, we might find that many firearm-based threats do not have the weapon sitting right out there so you can easily grasp it! Many "hold-ups" use the firearm to force compliance by the victim, and the firearm is often hidden as much as possible so that witnesses cannot see it so easily.

RBFC's 3 rules for gun disarms:

1. Get off the muzzle line, so that the first (often reflexive) shot as you make your move does not strike you.

2. Gain control of the firearm, either by direct grasp or by controlling the limb that wields it.

3. Begin the beatdown. These steps can happen simultaneously in some situations.

Regardless of how you're being held at gunpoint, these three rules hold. You can test any gun disarm technique being taught by how it adheres to these rules.



Here's a scenario that we've all seen in the movies, as almost every gangster movie has this happen as they walk the poor guy out to be shoved into the trunk of a car. Here, I'm being held at gunpoint as the bad guy hugs me close to control me and shoves the gun into my ribs. Notice that the gun is BEHIND my arms, so that there is no possible way that I can grab the gun quickly enough to avoid being shot.



You can't see his other hand holding my shoulder too well in this photo, but the pressure he uses is to HOLD ME CLOSE TO HIM AND PREVENT ME FROM PULLING AWAY. We created a bit of space in this photo sequence so that folks can see what's going on. By nature, we first want to pull away from the guy. This movement is what he is prepared to resist. Instead, I turn INTO him and drive the firearm off my body with the back of my arm. You can see the beginning of this movement here:



Following Rule #1 above, I've successfully gotten off the muzzle line very quickly. Of course, if I stop here, he'll merely step back a bit and re-acquire me on the muzzle line. So, I can't let him do that! Since I can't really grasp the gun, I will control the weapon by NOT ALLOWING HIM TO POINT IT AT ME AGAIN. In this photo, I continue my turn into him and begin to bear hug him, trapping his gun arm across his body. Different angles are shown, so that you may see how the firearm is trapped:




continued

 

[RBFC]

Now that I've been able to lock my hands and have the gun trapped, I have to begin the process of beating him down sufficiently so that I can get the firearm away from him. Since I cannot safely just "grab" the gun away, I'll have to throw him around a little bit. I can start by "softening him up" somewhat by using a headbutt into his face or landing knee strikes on his thigh (quite painful).



Even though I may be striking him, it's very common for the bad guy to hang onto his gun at all costs, so I'll have to try even harder. I'll toss him onto the ground, and let the landing do the work for me:



At no time can he point the gun at me, but once I have him on the ground (landing with all my weight on him), his mobility will be limited and my options will be increased.


continued

 

[RBFC]

As I'm about to land on him, the photos should make it obvious that I'll have to let go of him so that my arms aren't trapped beneath him. I time the release so that I let go and still don't leave any space where he could point the gun at me.



Note the added "value" of my shoulder landing on his throat. This provides a little extra "stun" so that I can get in one more good strike with my elbow. Gravity helps too! You'll see that my other hand is in position to FINALLY get ready to achieve a grasp on the weapon, which I can now remove from his hand as I've stunned him pretty well.



The RBFC program has a fairly complete module for weapon disarms from these "unconventional" positions. By testing these techniques in our "laboratory" with full force and with a large population of users, we arrive at what we feel are ROBUST methods. In this example, written explicitly to demonstrate how to use a "body slam" in a gun disarm, it's obvious that smaller individuals or women would not possess the upper body strength to perform the slam. There are "tripping" takedown methods that work equally well in this application. My assistant in the photos is 6'5" and 245#, so you can't hear me yelling "TAKE THE SHOT ALREADY, HE'S HEAVY!!" as I'm picking him up and holding him there.

Please understand that these tactics are demonstrated to show our members how the mechanics of the techniques work and to explain the logic that accompanies each tactical choice. Feel free to ask questions or PM for information. NEVER mess around with a partner and a real firearm to try this out!!!

Lee

 

[flez007]

Lee , this is very interesting, but what about the same situation where the attacker is not at reach and in front of you (not from the back)?

 

[DonH50]

IMO: One thing learned a long, long time ago when I was helping train police officers in these sort of techniques was that we (my sensei and I) could virtually always knock the gun out of line, but could also virtually never prevent it from going off (assuming the thug has his/her finger on the trigger). It's hard to keep everything in mind, but situational awareness, including where a bullet is likely to go, is important.

I am curious about flez007's question, too. The techniques I knew back then I barely remember now, and would not want to put them out in public as they required skills most of us don't have (or in my case don't remember and/or are no longer agile/fast enough to use).

BTW Lee, great stuff, I must remember to treat you kindly if and when we meet! - Don

 

[RBFC]

As stated in the three rules, the first rule absolutely assumes that the gun will fire when you attempt the disarm. We use Simunitions training weapons to work with live projectile ammunition, while still providing a level of safety. Training in this manner, we know FOR SURE whether a tactic is successful in a large enough proportion of the trials. The marking cartridges leave indisputable evidence. There are a few considerations when worrying about where the bullet will go when it misses you. Yes, you may move around, etc. in order to orient the whole process so that the muzzle ends up pointing in a benign direction. However, if you are shot because you are not focused upon the disarm, others around you may also be shot in the aftermath. This is a tough call, and one that can only be made in the moment. I am unaware of any lawsuits, etc. that involve a bystander being shot while an officer was disarming a suspect, but I don't have 100% reporting available. Also remember that civilians are not charged with the same "crime prevention/arrest" duties as a police officer.

Don,

I'm just doing something that helps folks, and am pretty pacifistic at heart. That's why I'm on an audio forum! I was considering retiring from the Dept of Public Safety rolls, but had a request to re-apply for another four years. We'll see. I told Steve that I know some guys that make me look like an HGTV interior designer......

I'll be 57 in October, and we still do this stuff weekly. Keeping the activity level up constantly is the key for me. As you can see in the photos, my right bicep is torn and I have a few other chronic injuries, but once one commits to a more sedentary lifestyle, it's difficult to return to these activities.

Flez,

I'll address the general "having a gun pointed at me" setting in another thread.

Lee

 

[DonH50]

I was trying to remember what was said back then, and I am certainly not in your league (I was merely helping teach Karate to the officers). Nor have a I kept it up; I could not maintain anything like the proficiency I once had and would not settle for less. Stupid youth, now I wish I had kept up something.

IIRC, if we could turn, slowly, so the assailant would follow and thus redirect the gun to a safe(r) direction, we would. Not always possible/practical. Your options are greater in an alley than a classroom, for instance. And bullets can go through wooden walls.

One other thing I remembered that seems obvious is to practice the disarm from both sides. For right-handers, dealing with a left-handed attacker (or one simply holding the gun in the left hand) takes more practice because it is our “weaker” and “slower” side. When I started training a lot of effort was made to get both sides (arms and legs) closer in capability, strength and dexterity.

Also, practice on a good mat! My arms still hurt with the memory of hitting the mat before I got them out from under the opponent… We often used the technique of grabbing the gun wrist or forearm with the low (right, in your example) hand while forcing palm or fingers of the other hand into the throat to disable while hooking and planting a leg behind thug's foot and pushing for a takedown, but frankly that is not something I am sure I would try now as it takes much more coordination/practice than what you’ve shown. It does keep hands in front, but if you slip up potentially leaves the thug (especially a big/strong one) with a gun pointed right at you and most likely scared or mad enough to use it.

 

[RBFC]

We've discarded more stuff than we've kept, due to issues such as you raise. Most officers, except the gung-ho types, will rely on the training they received over the few weeks of academy. Fine motor skills and a large catalog of techniques are far too perishable. Without regular training, only a few basic concepts will remain.

One main focus of our program is that we test the tactics under extreme pressure. We use protective armor so that the roles may be played out without the typical "tag" mentality of traditional systems. We use modern training weapons and methods that allow a measured pain penalty that catalyzes the training effect (much like the dog shock collar works). Also notice the crash pad mats used for demos.

Lee

 

[DonH50]

Yeah... I have a memory of a memory of what I used to could do...

My comment on the mats was to bring their notice to others reading. Standard exercise mats are not good enough for this kind of training IMO. The really thick ones (6" - 12") are available from some gym and most gymnastics supply houses.

 

[RBFC]

The red mat shown is 4 x 8 feet and 8 inches thick. We use the deluxe mats from www.norberts.net for grappling work, and this is one of their crash mats also.

Lee

 

[RBFC]

I want to add that all of the techniques shown in this forum are ONE WAY of achieving the desired results. I'm still learning and comparing strategies in an effort to provide the most effective methods possible. I welcome comments and questions, regardless of one's experience with this subject matter. Ideally, these tactics should be clear to anyone, regardless of their prior training.

Lee

 

[amirm]

Amazing stuff Lee. Really Amazing. Had no idea such techniques could exist to deal someone pointing a gun at your back!

 

[DonH50]

I suspect the problem for many of us is that of practice. Reading or watching a video does not give one the ability to do this on the street under duress. Any techniques, especially those involving guns, should be practiced until they are automatic. At least IMO. I used to be pretty good at self-defense but 30 years past my BB I know better (I hope) than to try something stupid based on a memory with no recent practice. Lee's warning at the top of his first post is a must-read.

Might be a good post topic -- where and how does one practice? I know there are self-defense classes in our area, but you have to ask around to determine if the instructor is good and you'll receive adequate, continued training and support. Despite their popularity I am not a fan of the one-day workshops; they provide an intro and overview but IMO are just the kick-off for what should be an extended training program. Seen too many cases where a student cannot effectively use what s/he learned. Myself included.