Laptop Advice

[DrFlup]

I've been feeling that way too about a few issues. Everything used to be so easy. I wonder if things are getting convoluted or I'm just getting old.

No. Information was easier to find.

And people replied to stuff faster.

I am unsure why it appears to be so difficult to find out that info on non-retina MPBs.

Course...I could just also be retarded and missing it in plain sight.

Which then would be the getting old syndrome.

 

[Keith_W]

Hi Drflup, I'm sorry but I forgot to welcome you to WBF. Welcome!!

I think there is no question that the new retina Macbooks have the best combination of display, trackpad, and build quality. But to me, the non-replaceable battery, the proprietary SSD, and the general "Apple-ness" of the thing are fatal flaws, such that I would question the sanity of someone willingly buying a laptop with a perishable part that can not be replaced, even by Apple. Apple has a long and rich history of screwing their customers using this method - e.g. RAM and video cards which have their pins reversed, thereby forcing you to buy replacements from Apple at an inflated price and limited availability as opposed to a standard, cheap, and readily available standard part.

The SSD is such a substantial improvement that any new laptop can not afford to be without it. It uses less power, is completely resistant to bumps, and is so much faster than a standard motorized stepper-drive HDD that the limited lifespan can be safely overlooked ... PROVIDED the SSD is a standard part which you can find at any computer shop and not a proprietary part which you are forced to buy from Apple and their SmartArse bar.

I have owned my Lenovo for 3 years, and prior to that I owned another Lenovo for 2 years before donating it to my cousin. I hear it is still in 100% working condition, which is more than can be said about my older laptops (Compaq, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and Apple).

Lenovo is the largest maker of laptops in the world, but they tend not to be noticed because the styling is rather ... utilitarian. Lenovo laptops tend to come wit the same problems that afflict other PC laptops - they are pre-loaded with crapware and tend not to look very exciting (the Macs tend to be much nicer looking in this regard).

 

[DrFlup]

Hi Drflup, I'm sorry but I forgot to welcome you to WBF. Welcome!!

I think there is no question that the new retina Macbooks have the best combination of display, trackpad, and build quality. But to me, the non-replaceable battery, the proprietary SSD, and the general "Apple-ness" of the thing are fatal flaws, such that I would question the sanity of someone willingly buying a laptop with a perishable part that can not be replaced, even by Apple. Apple has a long and rich history of screwing their customers using this method - e.g. RAM and video cards which have their pins reversed, thereby forcing you to buy replacements from Apple at an inflated price and limited availability as opposed to a standard, cheap, and readily available standard part.

The SSD is such a substantial improvement that any new laptop can not afford to be without it. It uses less power, is completely resistant to bumps, and is so much faster than a standard motorized stepper-drive HDD that the limited lifespan can be safely overlooked ... PROVIDED the SSD is a standard part which you can find at any computer shop and not a proprietary part which you are forced to buy from Apple and their SmartArse bar.

I have owned my Lenovo for 3 years, and prior to that I owned another Lenovo for 2 years before donating it to my cousin. I hear it is still in 100% working condition, which is more than can be said about my older laptops (Compaq, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and Apple).

Lenovo is the largest maker of laptops in the world, but they tend not to be noticed because the styling is rather ... utilitarian. Lenovo laptops tend to come wit the same problems that afflict other PC laptops - they are pre-loaded with crapware and tend not to look very exciting (the Macs tend to be much nicer looking in this regard).

Yeah - it will - I have to admit be difficult having used OSX now since debut. Brain might be a little hatched into it. But, before they went from being little evil to BIG EVIL. Man - it was just so easy...and their previous laptops (I stopped buying six years ago) everything just worked and continued to work - if it broke - small service, back to war horse mode. It is a terrible shame to see Mac go down this road. But if I can't rip it apart to fix or replace something.

This parting of ways is beginning to feel like the end of 'Of mice and men'.

Re: SSD - I do a lot of copying / deleting / moving files - how goes the SSD if it fails - easy to recover?

Yeah I'm seriously looking at the Lenovos. Though those HP Envys are nice too - if heavy.

But then I found - http://www.falcon-nw.com/ - and I am pondering. It's a massive massive expenditure but then...a sizeable portion of my life is spent working with the damn thing. Does anyone know of the likelihood of Hackintoshing a Falcon?

 

[DrFlup]

To answer my own question - I just found this regarding upgradeability of Non-Retina MPB - http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/0...r-macbook-pro-non-retina-may-be-where-its-at/

Which was not around last time I did a heavy search on this.

 

[DrFlup]

I thought to keep it comprehensive for anyone else with the issue of what to buy and why and stuff - I'd include some links I found in this swing of looking for answers to step away from Mac - what Laptop agh what laptop.

DIY replacement of battery in Retina display
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9230089/Swapping_Retina_MacBook_Pro_battery_costs_DIYers_500

Charges for battery replacement direct with Apple
http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/...-macbook-pro-retina-display-battery-20120618/

On the plus side - supposedly you should not notice battery degradation until sometime after the first three years.

 

[Andre Marc]

Conan - What is best?

I am currently travelling permanently and my macbook pro is dying the slow death.

I use it for sound - DJ-ing with Traktor, Logic etc. Inkscape and writing.

I am currently loathe to get a new Mac as I have heard the new ones are not upgradable repairable in the slightest and the one I have currently has had quite a bit of maintenance to survive this long.

I honestly have no idea what laptop to go for - I am considering putting Ubuntu on something as I have no real love for Windows either.

Any advice, help would be immensely appreciated -

Thank you.

I've pretty much decided on a Lenovo W7 machine. My budget is under $500.

I can't stomach the $1500 on an Apple Power Book that will be obsolete after 3 years. Screw that.

The only issue I have with Lenovo is there are too many models to choose from. They need
to streamline the product line.

 

[DrFlup]

I've pretty much decided on a Lenovo W7 machine. My budget is under $500.

I can't stomach the $1500 on an Apple Power Book that will be obsolete after 3 years. Screw that.

The only issue I have with Lenovo is there are too many models to choose from. They need
to streamline the product line.

Yeah I am having trouble with that - it's just saying goodbye to OSX ...

 

[DrFlup]

Hi Drflup, I'm sorry but I forgot to welcome you to WBF. Welcome!!

I meant to say thanks for the welcome

 

[NorthStar]

It is refreshing to see someone asking the right questions when it comes to laptops. How serviceable are they? Far too many people get attracted to shiny things, polished marketing, and then make poor purchasing decisions based on their emotions.

The new Macbook Pro 15" Retina display scores 1/10 in iFixit's repairability guide. Link here. Reasons for this very low score: the battery is glued to the chassis and also covers the trackpad cable. Attempting to remove the battery might break the battery and shear the cable. The display assembly is completely fused with no glass protecting it. The RAM is soldered to the board, and the SSD is on a proprietary daughter card. In short: when your batteries die, your Macbook will be tethered to the power brick for life support. You have no chance of replacing the battery. If you own a laptop, and you intend on keeping it for a few years, you know that your batteries eventually wear out and struggle to hold a charge. I guess this is Apple's way of making sure its laptops have built-in obsolescence so you will have to buy a new one.

---- Not just Apple is doing that, but Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, LG, Sharp, Toshiba, ... some of them even go to the extent of programming a 'time-bomb' into one of their IC chips! ...For example, Panasonic did that with their plasma HDTVs (black level), Samsung put a hidden camera in some of their laptops intented for school students, and other true stories of that sort. ...Not mentioning the huge price-fix on all LCD panels (TVs, laptops, computer screens, etc.) by all the major players.
We truly live in a very sick world where the only thing that truly counts is corruption/consumption/greed/money!

The Macbook Air 13" scores 4/10 in iFixit's repairability guide. Link here. The RAM is soldered to the motherboard. If your RAM dies, there goes your machine. The SSD is on a daughter card and is proprietary. At least the battery is removable ... once you get past the proprietary screws that Apple uses.

Bear in mind that SSD's have a limited read/write cycle. The SSD controller automatically maps sectors on the SSD as they grow bad, so if you use your SSD intensively (especially if you are in the habit of copying and deleting lots of files) your SSD will eventually lose capacity and need to be replaced. All laptop manufacturers use standard SSD's, except for Apple. There really is no excuse, except to lock you in and charge higher margins for what really is a standard part.

Apple laptops look very nice, are built very well, and have some of the nicest keyboards, trackpads, and displays on the market. But unfortunately these do not mitigate their serious failings such as a non-replaceable battery, inability to upgrade the RAM, and proprietary SSD. One wonders why anybody would buy a laptop with the battery glued to the chassis. Perhaps they don't mind throwing their laptops in the dustbin when it eventually stops holding charge.

I own a Lenovo X301, which is completely user serviceable. Lenovo publishes detailed DIY dissection manuals on their website. If you want to install Linux on your Lenovo, you can do it two ways. One, order a standard Lenovo laptop with Windows on it and buy a separate SSD. All you need to do is to remove the battery, remove one screw, and the SSD slides out. You can then install Linux on the other SSD and swap between them as you wish. And yes, instructions and drivers for Linux are available on Lenovo's website. The second way is to order a laptop preconfigured with Linux from Lenovo.*

I can not comment on the others (Dell, HP, Asus, Fujitsu, Sony, etc) except to say that Sony's and Toshiba's are far less DIY friendly than Lenovo. Neither Sony nor Toshiba publish DIY dissection manuals, and the drivers weren't readily available the last time I looked.

I would second Amir's suggestion that you avoid anything with radical hardware (e.g. touch screens) unless you want to run Windows 8.

* (edit) I just checked Lenovo's website. Some models can not be ordered with Linux. Regardless, nearly all laptops in the PC world have easily replaceable SSD's. Just make sure that Linux drivers are available before buying.

---- I really like your post; it is true, informative, educational, and it helps. :b

 

[NorthStar]

I've pretty much decided on a Lenovo W7 machine. My budget is under $500.

I can't stomach the $1500 on an Apple Power Book that will be obsolete after 3 years. Screw that.

The only issue I have with Lenovo is there are too many models to choose from. They need to streamline the product line.

---- But that's exactly the thing nowadays; not a product for the masses, but a personal one just for you, your personality, your own use.
It's like searching for a wife.

________________________

* DrFlup, Welcome! :b

 

[Andre Marc]

Yeah I am having trouble with that - it's just saying goodbye to OSX ...

Win 7 and OSX have converged at this point..and agree with others, to hell with Apple's planned obsolescence.

 

[rblnr]

I thought to keep it comprehensive for anyone else with the issue of what to buy and why and stuff - I'd include some links I found in this swing of looking for answers to step away from Mac - what Laptop agh what laptop.

DIY replacement of battery in Retina display
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9230089/Swapping_Retina_MacBook_Pro_battery_costs_DIYers_500

Charges for battery replacement direct with Apple
http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/...-macbook-pro-retina-display-battery-20120618/

On the plus side - supposedly you should not notice battery degradation until sometime after the first three years.

Yes, of course the batteries are replaceable. The suggestion that they're not is knee-jerk bashing and silly. I've no doubt though that a laptop w/a replaceable battery may be cheaper from a replacement standpoint. Let's say half as much, and at best and you're saving very little over the course of three or more years (my laptop has maintained its battery capacity for 4 years). I don't see how this would be a decision-maker.

I think there is no question that the new retina Macbooks have the best combination of display, trackpad, and build quality.

Yeah, other than that, they kinda suck.

The trackpads and Windows software on PC laptops have generally driven me crazy. Trackpads, software (I find OSX much better than W7, so it would be a meaningful switch for me), display (retina is best I've seen on a laptop) -- this is the stuff we interface with every day. What's that worth? And mine have been absolutely reliable, and given my work they can get banged around.

If you feel hindered by Apple than perhaps you should look elsewhere The main thing is to focus and prioritize things that matter to you most and choose appropriately. A replaceable battery and SSD are way down the list for me, and hindrance isn't on it, but again, that's me.

After much internal debate, I bought the basic spec 13" retina pro. Couldn't justify going with the faster chip. While mostly my desktop system handles the hp intensive stuff, I do do some video and image editing on my laptop as well as regular large file transfers -- and I expect this new one to be fine for several years. For me, it's a great combo of portability, utility and display. It replaces a '08 Air (goes to my daughters) and '10 15" MBP that I got tired of lugging around on shoots though still works perfectly well and has the best laptop display I'd seen till the retina.

 

[rblnr]

Win 7 and OSX have converged at this point..and agree with others, to hell with Apple's planned obsolescence.

Disagree, don't think they've converged; I find OSX a much better and reliable environment. Add to that no crapware, and essentially no malware and viruses.

Planned obsolescence is a fact of life in most electronics, and no worse for Apple than other computers IMO. I'll point out that the '08 Macbook Air mentioned above runs the latest OSX just fine.

 

[Andre Marc]

Disagree, don't think they've converged; I find OSX a much better and reliable environment. Add to that no crapware, and essentially no malware and viruses.

Planned obsolescence is a fact of life in most electronics, and no worse for Apple than other computers IMO. I'll point out that the '08 Macbook Air mentioned above runs the latest OSX just fine.

I have both in the house. I don't have issue with either, and I don't see a difference in stability.

As far as viruses..well, that is another issue, and that is ultimately whyI dumped my HP desktop for a Mac Mini
a year and a half ago.

But then again the guys who write the codes are not going to bother with
5% of the computer population.

 

[DrFlup]

---- But that's exactly the thing nowadays; not a product for the masses, but a personal one just for you, your personality, your own use.
It's like searching for a wife.

________________________

* DrFlup, Welcome! :b

Considering how much time you (I) spend on the laptop - it is perhaps akin to a Taxi Driver picking a car. Perhaps more important than a wife.

I am considering emailing Falcon Northwest and asking them how possible and smooth it would work to throw OSX on one of their machines.

I found some interesting stuff about Lenovos running OSX out about the web - will continue reading - but it appears perhaps you might be able to just buy a Lenovo and run OsX on it.

Thanks for the welcome Northstar.

 

[DrFlup]

Yes, of course the batteries are replaceable. The suggestion that they're not is knee-jerk bashing and silly. I've no doubt though that a laptop w/a replaceable battery may be cheaper from a replacement standpoint. Let's say half as much, and at best and you're saving very little over the course of three or more years (my laptop has maintained its battery capacity for 4 years). I don't see how this would be a decision-maker.



Yeah, other than that, they kinda suck.

The trackpads and Windows software on PC laptops have generally driven me crazy. Trackpads, software (I find OSX much better than W7, so it would be a meaningful switch for me), display (retina is best I've seen on a laptop) -- this is the stuff we interface with every day. What's that worth? And mine have been absolutely reliability, and given my work they can get banged around.

If you feel hindered by Apple than perhaps you should look elsewhere The main thing is to focus and prioritize things that matter to you most and choose appropriately. A replaceable battery and SSD are way down the list for me, and hindrance isn't on it, but again, that's me.

After much internal debate, I bought the basic spec 13" retina pro. Couldn't justify going with the faster chip. While mostly my desktop system handles the hp intensive stuff, I do do some video and image editing on my laptop as well as regular large file transfers -- and I expect this new one to be fine for several years. For me, it's a great combo of portability, utility and display. It replaces a '08 Air (goes to my daughters) and '10 15" MBP that I got tired of lugging around on shoots though still works perfectly well and has the best laptop display I'd seen till the retina.

Yeah - I am annoyingly being nudged that way - going to spec out a Lenovo later on their build site and have think - email Falcon Northwest out of curiosity. (I'll post what they say)

Try and read a few more reviews on the HP Envy.


Serious ethical issues with Apple these days though. But then are the other companies as bad or as perceivably evil and bully boy and exploitative as Apple or is it just that they are getting all the press at the moment?

Thank you

 

[Keith_W]

Re: SSD - I do a lot of copying / deleting / moving files - how goes the SSD if it fails - easy to recover?

SSD's don't fail in the same way that HDD's do. In fact they are far more reliable than HDD's. Remember that HDD's work by moving a reading head on an actuator over a spinning disc. If the head were to contact the disk - you get instant data loss and probably HDD failure. Not a good idea to mount this on a device that can be bumped or used while it is moving. Also, spinning that disk eats power, which is why you will never find the fastest HDD's on a laptop. They all spin at 5400rpm. Desktop HDD's spin at 7200, 10000, or even 15000rpm. SSD's are much faster and are totally silent compared to HDD's.

If you have ever had a HDD fail on you, you will know that the data lost might not be completely recoverable. I used to have an IBM Deskstar, which gained such a reputation for failing that it was nicknamed "Death Star". When mine failed, I took it to a HDD data recovery shop. They were able to recover most, but not all of my data.

SSD's are a different kettle of fish. Thanks to a physical limitation of flash memory, there is a finite number of times data can be erased. The job of the SSD controller is to try to minimize erases as much as possible. An SSD is arranged with 4KB pages, and there are usually 128 pages in a block (i.e. 512KB per block). Data can be written in pages, but the smallest unit that can be deleted is the block. Remember - you can write 4KB at a time, but you can only delete 512KB at a time. Deleting a block is slow, and the more you do this, the higher the chance that the block will eventually go bad. When you delete a file on an SSD, the controller simply marks the individual pages on the block as "deleted" without actually deleting anything. When all the pages on the block are marked "deleted", then the controller deletes the entire block and makes it available to store data.

The obvious problem is this - if your HDD is approaching capacity (i.e. more than 80% full), then nearly all the blocks will have undeleted pages in them. If you request to write a 4GB file, the controller has to do this: find a block with a small number of undeleted pages, copy those pages to another block, then delete the entire block. Repeat until space is found for your file.

Early SSD controllers were not very good at doing this, and some users found that their computers froze for a few seconds every time there was a write operation on a nearly full SSD. Given how modern OS'es frequently write to HDD, this habit damn near made computers unusable and earned SSD's a poor reputation. These days the controllers are much better.

I hope I have explained why over time, your SSD will get slower and lose capacity. How quickly it does this depends on your usage habits. DO buy the largest SSD you can afford. DON'T run your SSD to capacity (because a nearly full SSD needs more write/delete operations than an empty one), and DON'T use your SSD to store files that you will frequently delete. For this reason I have both SSD and HDD on my desktop computer, but on a laptop you have no choice. I would suggest getting a portable external HDD if you need a lot of storage. Unlike HDD's, SSD's do not catastrophically fail (unless the controller suddenly dies, but that is rare!). Rather, they go bad over time.

An SSD should be considered a disposable part. This is why you want a laptop with an easily replaceable SSD, which you can buy from an open market at low prices. And despite all that I have said about SSD's, I still think that their overall benefits outweigh their drawbacks and that you should get one.

I recognize that changing SSD's might be a job that is too hard for most people, which is why Apple forces you to send your computer in when a new SSD is required. But there is no excuse for using a proprietary SSD, except to lock third party computer techs and people who can DIY out of the market. Everywhere you look on a Mac laptop, you find examples of this type of thinking. Why solder RAM onto the motherboard? Why make the battery non-replaceable? Why use a proprietary power connector? Why fuse the display to the top lid and not protect it with glass? Why use proprietary screws?

 

[DrFlup]

I recognize that changing SSD's might be a job that is too hard for most people, which is why Apple forces you to send your computer in when a new SSD is required. But there is no excuse for using a proprietary SSD, except to lock third party computer techs and people who can DIY out of the market. Everywhere you look on a Mac laptop, you find examples of this type of thinking. Why solder RAM onto the motherboard? Why make the battery non-replaceable? Why use a proprietary power connector? Why fuse the display to the top lid and not protect it with glass? Why use proprietary screws?

Splendid post - very well written and informative - thank you. Yeah - it looks as though perhaps a non-retina SSD MPB is the most tinker-able with.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Me too; I truly enjoy reading Keith's posts, they are quite informative, you can tell on his vast knowledge on things PC/Mac related.

* I am considering a Lenovo laptup. ...With Pentium/Intel inside? ...Or don't matter?

 

[rblnr]

Serious ethical issues with Apple these days though. But then are the other companies as bad or as perceivably evil and bully boy and exploitative as Apple or is it just that they are getting all the press at the moment?

What issues specifically? If you're talking about factory conditions, I don't think they're different from anyone else.

I recognize that changing SSD's might be a job that is too hard for most people, which is why Apple forces you to send your computer in when a new SSD is required. But there is no excuse for using a proprietary SSD, except to lock third party computer techs and people who can DIY out of the market.

So yeah, unauthorized third party techs (authorized, non-Apple facilities such as Tekserve here in NYC are fine for repairs/upgrades) and DIY demanders are out of luck. Doesn't kill me that the .01% of the population that that bothers is stuck, particularly if that allows more battery life as irregular shapes can fill more space, etc.. Point, if not clear, is that this is a limitation for virtually no one. I've had no urge to change the SSD in my '08 Air and it still works fine and haven't thought a whit about how I should use it, i.e., not delete little used files, etc.

Anyway, good luck with your choice and I'll shutup now.