KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[tima]

A wilson Magico type of set up (and many other such speakers) create a constant stage and imaging (in that room, not across rooms)

That's simply not true in the case of Wilson.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Tao, disaster capitalists are absolutely rubbing their hands w glee, there is so much money to be made from recession.

And after this short OT break...

NO POLITICS, GENTLEMEN!

 

[Al M.]

That's simply not true in the case of Wilson.

And it is simply not true in the case of Magico.

 

[Folsom]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-gibbon-x-loudspeaker

Well the review summarized why I love these speakers - dynamics with exceptional "realism" and huge soundstage. They disappear and image very well compared with former Devores. Curiously, Jim didn't use a tube amp which I feel these speakers are designed for - he swapped out his Pass monos which were too lean for PS Audio hybrid amps. He did summarize the differences between the Os and Gibbons nicely - i prefer the more modern, neutral Gibbon X to the O 96, but others will prefer the O with a more shelved top end and warmer bass. It was interesting he said the Xs get rid of a slightly hooded issue with vocals. I also agree with Jim that ultimate bass resolution doesn't exist on a Devore loudspeaker vs a sealed one.

The measurements with a Devore speaker are always interesting because of the tuned bass cabinet, although resonance is improved vs. the old Silverback. JA still doesn't like the second order crossover from midrange to bass creating a recessed lower midrange (that was much improved from the former speaker). However I think with tubes this is somewhat ameliorated and that life isn't all about FR as phase is very important in this region. John Devore says in the comments that in all Silverback installs he's heard, this curve sounded best compared with the alternative (he had a "HT" switch before so users could hear both). So its a computer vs real room issue. I will be curious for @Folsom opinion on this.

I do think the over ripe bass in my room might be an instance of the recessed lower midrange + room suckout in that region (which I've measured before with other speakers) - the combination making bass seem enhanced. So my bass issue could be more of a room caused one and would change in a larger room - and why @Pallen doesn't have any bass issues. In fact, Jim Austin noted the Devores bass was much leaner than the Orangutans (a good thing imo).

Ok...

Well the measurements do explain a few things. I think the answer here is to change your bass, and toe out all the way or no more than 5-10* toe in. You basically have to do that because the tweeter is rather high. It's that or rent the apartment behind you, and tear down the wall so you can pull your speakers way farther into the room (obviously not possible). The midrange will probably be a little hot between the tweeter and down to somewhere around where the phase canceling starts from the crossover. But room gain will help the lower midrange a little. I think that I'd prefer a slightly different crossover between the bass and midrange. I'm not sure how accessible that crossover is to make any modifications, so this is probably out of the question because the only good way to do this is to send it to Texas for a free assessment and a little $ for some parts. I'll cover that more in a PM.

The one measurement they don't give is distortion, probably because no one would ever send them anything again, but it can be very telling.

Honestly I'm not convinced that buying new speakers is going to get you where you want necessarily. More in PM.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How about this effort to reconcile competing views:

As Kedar wrote, we are not talking here about do everything, all out assault systems. With limited scope systems (i.e., not playing complex classical or head-banging rock) retrenching to 1) highly sensitive, 2) small single driver or two-way loudspeakers (whether horn or cone or hybrid thereof), 3) with simple crossovers, 4) which can be driven by low/low-ish power pure, simple circuit amplifiers (SETs, very simple signal path pure class A solid-state) can get you very nice and realistic sound quality without too much fuss, brain damage, space required and expense.

 

[Folsom]

How about this effort to reconcile competing views:

As Kedar wrote, we are not talking here about do everything, all out assault systems. With limited scope systems (i.e., not playing complex classical or head-banging rock) retrenching to 1) highly sensitive, 2) small single driver or two-way loudspeakers (whether horn or cone or hybrid thereof), 3) with simple crossovers, 4) which can be driven by low/low-ish power pure, simple circuit amplifiers (SETs, very simple signal path pure class A solid-state) can get you very nice and realistic sound quality without too much fuss, brain damage, space required and expense.

I have no idea what you're actually trying to say here.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I've always mentioned to Keith that it's going to be hard to reproduce the huge performance jump from Zus to his current Devores, specially since they cost almost the same.

But a meaningful upgrade is possible, that I've no doubt. At a cost, of course.

I think it is a bit of a puzzle. I think larger, more ambitious speakers can get Keith materially better sound, but not without a bigger room being a necessary part of the equation to capitalize on the capabilities of the larger, more ambitious speaker.

 

[tima]

How about this effort to reconcile competing views:

As Kedar wrote, we are not talking here about do everything, all out assault systems. With limited scope systems (i.e., not playing complex classical or head-banging rock) retrenching to 1) highly sensitive, 2) small single driver or two-way loudspeakers (whether horn or cone or hybrid thereof), 3) with simple crossovers, 4) which can be driven by low/low-ish power pure, simple circuit amplifiers (SETs, very simple signal path pure class A solid-state) can get you very nice and realistic sound quality without too much fuss, brain damage, space required and expense.

Who has those musical priorities? (Btw, adding "brain damage" did not help yr case.)

Emasculated systems/components that cannot handle orchestral? Too fey.

 

[Folsom]

I think it is a bit of a puzzle. I think larger, more ambitious speakers can get Keith materially better sound, but not without a bigger room being a necessary part of the equation to capitalize on the capabilities of the larger, more ambitious speaker.

This is an issue. Most larger speakers are tuned for larger rooms. They don’t count on room gain much. But should Keith lose his ocean view? I dunno... I think he still has a long ways to go before another room is required.

 

[DaveC]

How about this effort to reconcile competing views:

As Kedar wrote, we are not talking here about do everything, all out assault systems. With limited scope systems (i.e., not playing complex classical or head-banging rock) retrenching to 1) highly sensitive, 2) small single driver or two-way loudspeakers (whether horn or cone or hybrid thereof), 3) with simple crossovers, 4) which can be driven by low/low-ish power pure, simple circuit amplifiers (SETs, very simple signal path pure class A solid-state) can get you very nice and realistic sound quality without too much fuss, brain damage, space required and expense.

I'm not sure the views need to be competing, this is simply the major tradeoff between wideband and traditional multi-way speakers. That's why I own both, I mostly listen to my wideband horn/SET system because it matches the music I listen to better vs my 3-way speakers, but I feel the need to own both as there can be a stark difference in the ability of the systems to resolve complex music. And my speakers crossover to 15" woofers with high power amps at 400 Hz, so it's far better than a simple system as you describe at complex music, yet, it's still nowhere close to what my S-1EX with a big 200 wpc amp can do.

And as far as brain damage, these SET/single driver systems can be pretty "tweaky" so that's not necessarily true...

 

[DaveC]

Honestly I'm not convinced that buying new speakers is going to get you where you want necessarily..

As far as what spending more money on a speaker system gets you... less compromise. If you value a system that can reproduce complex music really well then you need something a bit more complex it's self and for the same component quality it'll cost more. But I've also heard some newer "big" speakers do small scale music really well, imo because their "coherence" is improving, when they do play solo female vocals it sounds "right" in much the same way a good single driver does.

So imo if you're looking to move on and upgrade from a speaker like Devore, the real areas they can be improved on is 1. Resolving complex music, and 2. Bass response/quality.... there's no replacement for displacement in audio as well as autos. If these things don't matter to you then maybe just enjoy what you have until you identify something you really feel would be a worthwhile improvement for you and the music you listen to.

 

[DaveC]

I don’t think Ked is wrong that there is a very strong tendancy for modern type stereos to sound like they have one flavor... but it isn’t a rule.

It seems to often come from tweaking with things like ground boxes, goofy cords, etc.

I'd agree with that. One of the major differences vs a horn is the dispersion pattern makes it easier to achieve the "you are there" presentation. But a cone 'n' dome with a smooth response and some attention paid to room acoustics can resolve ambient spatial information really well too.

I do suspect some "ground boxes" simply add noise that distorts the system's spatial presentation, and it's also true this can often be seen as an improvement.

 

[dan31]

I have a strong suspicion the YG will be the ticket for Keith.

 

[Bodhi]

Yes, I have tried various phonos, carts, and recordings through many Magico systems. Differences are very small. Think it is the driver, cross over, or a combo of them with the complex circuitry in the path. Same with Wilson and many others. Avalon can be made good in terms of transparency in cones. I am saying in terms of transparency of recordings to Devore orangutans. Other attributes may vary

I don't discount your experience Bonzo. I can only say my experience with the Magico S5 Mk2's (of which i'm most familiar) has been quite different. They are the most transparent of speakers, and are very revealing of micro detail and ambient queues (provided the upsteam gear & cables are up to snuff). The S Mk2 series have the new diamond-coated BE tweeter which allowed the breakup point to be moved beyond the bandpass, and enabled Magico to remove the crossover’s electrical traps necessary for controlling driver breakup, thereby simplifying the crossover & improving resolution. Some other random things about the S5 Mk2's; they use the same midrange drivers as the M3 (Part No: MAG6004RTC), which are an improved version of the midrange in the MPro. Also they use some very nice caps in the critical position - the new Mundorf Mcap Supreme Evo Silver/Gold in Oil caps.

Additionally, Magico use Elliptical Symmetry Crossover technology which they state "..produces a filter with greatly accelerated rolloff slopes. It uses a very specific notch response to achieve an acutely steep rolloff rate outside the passband without the addition of an electric pole. It is a unique type of electrical/acoustical filter that, in our view, offers a significant performance advantage over typical crossover filter types in audio applications. Since we are also able to precisely model the transfer function of each driver using the latest CAD tools, we can create rolloff rates, both high and low pass, that are completely symmetrical".

With the above said, I agree the best crossover is no crossover. Whilst I'm enjoying my Magico's, my next pair of speakers will be highly efficient (6 ohms, 96db) and have just one cap in the tweeter. But that doesn't mean Gauder, Magico, or Evolution Acoustic's approach of using Elliptical symmetry crossovers is wrong however.

 

[bonzo75]

How about this effort to reconcile competing views:

As Kedar wrote, we are not talking here about do everything, all out assault systems. With limited scope systems (i.e., not playing complex classical or head-banging rock) retrenching to 1) highly sensitive, 2) small single driver or two-way loudspeakers (whether horn or cone or hybrid thereof), 3) with simple crossovers, 4) which can be driven by low/low-ish power pure, simple circuit amplifiers (SETs, very simple signal path pure class A solid-state) can get you very nice and realistic sound quality without too much fuss, brain damage, space required and expense.

Partially accurate. Art Dudley says in his Devore review that Bonzo (not me) was fantastic through the Devores. As I wrote in an earlier post, I prefer to listen to orchestra through Devore, where tone, flow, concert ambience is higher, than through a speaker that though separating 50 instruments more, has driver incoherence, bass boom, lack of tone and flow and constant staging and imaging. But yes I avoided listening to that small speaker for a long time because of how silly it looked so I can get why people who have not heard it carefully will argue that it just cannot match up on many aspects. And yes, just to clarify, I will choose Magico over AN-E or Duos.

 

[KeithR]

Ok...

Well the measurements do explain a few things. I think the answer here is to change your bass, and toe out all the way or no more than 5-10* toe in. You basically have to do that because the tweeter is rather high. It's that or rent the apartment behind you, and tear down the wall so you can pull your speakers way farther into the room (obviously not possible). The midrange will probably be a little hot between the tweeter and down to somewhere around where the phase canceling starts from the crossover. But room gain will help the lower midrange a little. I think that I'd prefer a slightly different crossover between the bass and midrange. I'm not sure how accessible that crossover is to make any modifications, so this is probably out of the question because the only good way to do this is to send it to Texas for a free assessment and a little $ for some parts. I'll cover that more in a PM.

I don't find the tweeter hot at all in my setup - nor has Jeffrey_T or Ron who both are quite sensitive to it (and would tell me I hope). My dealer did try the speakers a foot closer together w/o toe-in but preferred the setup you heard. I will revisit toe-in however in light of the measurements posted just to be sure its optimal. Currently its more typical "just inside the inside speaker wall" type angle.

And oh yeah, KeithR is 100% moving this summer - so no more ocean view I am in full agreement that a SOTA speaker needs a bigger room and intend to have one. But state of LA living is rooms just aren't that big - I can't imagine more than 20 x 15 in my next home.

 

[bonzo75]

With the above said, I agree the best crossover is no crossover. Whilst I'm enjoying my Magico's, my next pair of speakers will be highly efficient (6 ohms, 96db) and have just one cap in the tweeter. But that doesn't mean Gauder, Magico, or Evolution Acoustic's approach of using Elliptical symmetry crossovers is wrong however.

Well the EA MM7 was superbly transparent, but I do remember Mike there having chosen a top down strategy for transparency in which EA fit, and the high sensitivity simple crossover helped, and I understood from him that Dartzeel has simple circuitry too. I don't remember the exact details now.

The Gauder Vitus combo has been one of my favorite sounding Munich rooms a couple of years. I never got to verify transparency than though so cannot comment.

 

[bonzo75]

And oh yeah, KeithR is 100% moving this summer - so no more ocean view I am in full agreement that a SOTA speaker needs a bigger room and intend to have one. But state of LA living is rooms just aren't that big - I can't imagine more than 20 x 15 in my next home.

This is the problem. Don't be that audiophile who thinks that an upgrade means getting a bigger more expensive speaker, which in many cases will sound worse if the room does not follow.

 

[Folsom]

I don't find the tweeter hot at all in my setup - nor has Jeffrey_T or Ron who both are quite sensitive to it (and would tell me I hope). My dealer did try the speakers a foot closer together w/o toe-in but preferred the setup you heard. I will revisit toe-in however in light of the measurements posted just to be sure its optimal. Currently its more typical "just inside the inside speaker wall" type angle.

And oh yeah, KeithR is 100% moving this summer - so no more ocean view I am in full agreement that a SOTA speaker needs a bigger room and intend to have one. But state of LA living is rooms just aren't that big - I can't imagine more than 20 x 15 in my next home.

I didn't "notice it" because the tweeter is friendly, but it's clearly not made for much toe in at all. If I recall right they don't have much toe in, in your setup. But getting the response a little flatter will make everything more revealing.

And I don't think you're stuck with the problem of a small room, as per my PM.

 

[morricab]

Because I find modded tannoy better - though a bit colored compared to Devore, though still shows differences in recordings. Does other stuff well and goes back to the wall

You want to hear differences to the recording with low coloration, then come here my Odeons... If you want to hear differences in the recordings with a bit more coloration come hear my Decware HDTs. Once I mod them, they will do even better with lower coloration I hope...