KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[morricab]

I am somewhat astonished with such need of power - I owned the big Dynaudio Consequences (83dB/W , one of the less sensitive speakers I have ever seen) and could drive them to crazy levels with a Cello Duet - 350W at 8 ohm. Did anyone check for the voltage of the mains at Keith outlets?
Tube amplifiers are very sensitive to low mains.

yes, surprises me too...however, if Stereophile is right (Carmel 2 rated at 87, real 84 and Haley is rated the same as Carmel) then these are more 84db speakers...still, several hundred watts shouldn't clip too easily.

 

[jeff1225]

He still mentions Lamm curiosity. Which for many reasons I think he would rue the day. If the Ampzillas prove insufficient (I don't think they will), my backup recommendation was to be the SPL Performer m1000. https://spl.audio/professional-fidelity/performer-m1000/?lang=en

If neither of those, then he'd be headed to the megabucks amplifiers realm, with highly uncertain results. BTW, I don't think D'Agostino amps are the answer for anyone.

Phil

I really like the look of those SPL amps Phil. Have you heard them?

 

[Barry2013]

I am grateful for the posts following my own earlier post 2399, but it still seems to me to be perverse to be debating the components in the context of a nearly 60 year old rental house with a clearly apparent problem with one of the AC outlets. Notwithstanding the better performance of the other AC outlet it seems to me that it is more than likely that the whole AC system is in need of a thorough check and probable update.
Quite apart from system issues I would sleep more peacefully with such a check.

 

[christoph]

If the Ampzillas prove insufficient (I don't think they will), my backup recommendation was to be the SPL Performer m1000. https://spl.audio/professional-fidelity/performer-m1000/?lang=en

Have you actually heard those German Amps or are suggesting them simply from their specs?

 

[christoph]

I have not heard either Lamm hybrid on YG. Why do you not care for such a combination?

I could imagine the Lamm hybrid (I would prefer the M1.2, though) could be probbaly one of the best sounding combos with the YG, but I have not heard it either.
But my gut feeling and my curiosity would suggest at least a try

 

[microstrip]

yes, surprises me too...however, if Stereophile is right (Carmel 2 rated at 87, real 84 and Haley is rated the same as Carmel) then these are more 84db speakers...still, several hundred watts shouldn't clip too easily.

It remembers me of the excellent Magico Q5 - real 84 dB/W according to Stereophile. The speaker never got the recognition it deserved because it needed a lot of power - the Stereophile review used the 1kW Musical Fidelity Titan.

 

[microstrip]

I am grateful for the posts following my own earlier post 2399, but it still seems to me to be perverse to be debating the components in the context of a nearly 60 year old rental house with a clearly apparent problem with one of the AC outlets. Notwithstanding the better performance of the other AC outlet it seems to me that it is more than likely that the whole AC system is in need of a thorough check and probable update.
Quite apart from system issues I would sleep more peacefully with such a check.

One critical point of improperly working outlets can be noise. A poor connection anywhere in the house can generate a lot of noise that propagates through the whole AC system. One of the characteristics of mains noise is that it can lead some thinness to sound, impeding it from sounding powerful. Our immediate temptation - increase level to solve it!

 

[bazelio]

I've heard the Plinius A-300 which can provide up to 1800W RMS mono out into 4 ohms. And I've heard YG Sonjas. Never at the same time, though I do think the two would make a good match. One nice thing with the Plinius amps is the ability to switch between Class A and AB on the fly. And these probably have enough Class A power on tap to be useful in either mode with the YGs. But you will need two of them.

That said, the Ampzillas sound like they're playing quite nicely in this system. There's probably no rush.

 

[morricab]

Keith asked for an active preamp audition. I used to have a few, but moved one system to TVC strictly, and the other I interchange TVC and tube active pre. Sold off two of my active preamps since. What I have kept is a Melody Pure Black 101. It's a 6sn7, tube-rectified preamp that also uses 101D tubes for voltage rectification. It cost $4400 when I bought it. Australian designer; Chinese made, high-grade build Parts and build quality are on par with US and European competitive items in the $20,000 - $50,000 range. It has a very large dual choke power supply. It's a preamp but it weighs over 50 lbs. I also had a Melody p2688, which uses WE 403 or Ericsson 6ak5 pentodes for audio amplification. It was almost double the cost, even heavier, and somewhat more objective than the 6sn7 Pure Black 101. Point is, I have owned, used, auditioned and heard a vast array of top flight gear including preamps over the last 50 years, and these two Melody units are in the top 3 or 4 at any price. But you have to retube them from stock. The $5 rectifier and the flaccid bottom feeder 6sn7 tubes seriously undercut the PB 101. The p2688 does come with NOS WE 403 and the 101D are perfectly acceptable for voltage rec. The stock rectifier has to be heaved on that one too.

In the Melody 6sn7 preamp I hauled over to Keith's house today, I have a matched quad of unobtainium 1944 production Sylvania metal base, chrome dome 6sn7a. I bought them 25 years ago for relatively little because I intended to get a 6sn7 preamp when the right one came along. I sat on them until I found this Melody in 2007. It's magnificent more than half because of the 1944 production WWII 6sn7a tubes. The Shuguang Treasure cv181-z is the closest modern rival in this preamp. With the 1944 Sylvanias, the preamp is fast, incisive, objective bursty, musically faithful; convincing.

I was curious myself as I had a hand in Keith's decision to go to a TVC after he gave up his last integrated amp, so I wasn't advocating a change. Keith just wanted to hear what an active pre would do given all the late-breaking chatter in this thread questioning the TVC's ability to drive any of the amps needed for the YGS, well.

I use the Melody in my secondary system where it performs beautifully with a variety of amplifiers. Also understand that it has 23 db of total gain available, and it has three different outputs at "low," "high" and BAL impedances, unspecified. We ran it BAL in from the DAC and BAL out to the Ampzillas. In my experience, this preamp drives anything well.

On balance, listening to the Ampzillas on the YGs with both preamps, I preferred the TVC overall, but could probably tune the Melody to be an equal preference with some tube rolling. BUT, with the Ampzillas having input sensitivity of just 1v, there is a huge surplus of available gain. I think that would have been true even with the 2.4v i.s of the ARC 160M. We essentially got all the volume range needed from 6 o'clock (off) to the 8 o'clock position. The TVC actually dug a little deeper on some of Keith's synthetic and electric bass material, than the Melody. The Melody pushed a larger soundspace with more projection into the room today, but these were not large differences. The tube pre offered a little more midrange texture on strings and voices, but the TVC was slightly cleaner and more objective or absent euphonics. Both did a good job of keeping many simultaneous events distinctly hearable in crescendo.

Net: The TVC is not deficient in driving the amplifiers. The Ampzillas are blooming by the hour and are unfazed by the challenge of driving the inefficient, crossover-intensive YGs. They impose enough control and discipline to make the YG more coherent than normal for a multi-driver, crossover-intensive speaker. I am confident this will be a successful combination for Keith, and while one can argue whether more or less ultimate transparency is on tap, these Ampzillas do not impose a silicon devices signature. Easy to listen to but articulate and not obscuring details.

Phil

A used BAT SS amp would be worth the while to get as a comparison. Something like an old BAT VK500 or VK1000 monos or one of the newer VK600se. I tended to prefer their overall sound to the Ampzilla monos but the character is kind of in the same direction. An old Threshold T400 would also be in a similar direction.

 

[morricab]

I have not seen measurements of those YG s but i think their impedance might even drop to 1 -2 ohms .
It will just drain most amps, not easy to get those speakers playing to their full dynamic potential.
Between drive and optimal drive there is a lot in between.

Time to bring out the big old hairy Krells from days of yore! They could tame Scintillas...no problem with the YG...

 

[morricab]

Sorry to ask a stupid Q, but why are spkrs designed w such self imposed restrictions? To rule out 95% of amps?

If you have seen their measurements, it is clear that they are into the flat frequency response ueberalles school of speaker design, coupled to the "lowest self-noise" school. Both of which have a tendency to make the sensitivity low. As for impedance, the Carmel 2 has a minimum of 3.68 ohms according to stereophile...not so low. Sonja 1.3 has a minimum of 2.73 ohms in the mids...again not THAT low or difficult.

 

[morricab]

It remembers me of the excellent Magico Q5 - real 84 dB/W according to Stereophile. The speaker never got the recognition it deserved because it needed a lot of power - the Stereophile review used the 1kW Musical Fidelity Titan.

At that sensitivity, I think you are also starting to fight with thermal compression effects that require signficantly more power to get loud than one would predict from theoretical increases. I am reminded about a video I saw of Harbeth 40.1 speakers with big CH Precision monos that were showing like 800 watts peaks going into the Harbeths and people were still seemingly able to stand it in the room (some people were walking up close to the speaker). No way that should be comfortable for listeners if it really got as loud as theoretically predicted (even if the speakers didn't melt down) but if the speakers were badly compressing at those inputs then it would not be nearly as loud as predicted.

 

[KeithR]

I have not seen measurements of those YG s but i think their impedance might even drop to 1 -2 ohms .
It will just drain most amps, not easy to get those speakers playing to their full dynamic potential.
Between drive and optimal drive there is a lot in between.

They are specified as 3ohm minimum. Good 4ohm amp is all they need.

 

[KeithR]

If you have seen their measurements, it is clear that they are into the flat frequency response ueberalles school of speaker design, coupled to the "lowest self-noise" school. Both of which have a tendency to make the sensitivity low. As for impedance, the Carmel 2 has a minimum of 3.68 ohms according to stereophile...not so low. Sonja 1.3 has a minimum of 2.73 ohms in the mids...again not THAT low or difficult.

The Sonja is more difficult to drive with it's MTM structure- empirically its noticeable at my dealer. the newer YGs are 1db more sensitive due to the new, self-manufactured bass inductors for the crossover. Yoav spoke to this at the factory. My guess is the Hailey 2 is a true 86db measuring loudspeaker, but there are no measurements as of now.

I've been of the firm belief for years that audiophiles love to underdrive speakers on amps that "can work" - vs effortless sound from those that actually do work. This was one of the benefits of owning Zu for so long. @ddk would presumably agree as well.

 

[spiritofmusic]

God, running these uber hard to drive spkrs reminds me of those fetish models I used to quite fancy when I was young. Only problem is, you had BETTER match up Lol.

And do you want 8" stilettos, leather and whips EVERY night?

High maintenance? Can just about countenance my tt. The spkrs as well...?

 

[bonzo75]

God, running these uber hard to drive spkrs reminds me of those fetish models I used to quite fancy when I was young. Only problem is, you had BETTER match up Lol.

And do you want 8" stilettos, leather and whips EVERY night?

High maintenance? Can just about countenance my tt. The spkrs as well...?

What was your fetish, Marc, to tell you while getting spanked "your sound sucks, your Zus are bad" and alternate that with caresses of lovely linear tracker? Pain and pleasure?

 

[KeithR]

God, running these uber hard to drive spkrs reminds me of those fetish models I used to quite fancy when I was young. Only problem is, you had BETTER match up Lol.

It's kinda like people who want to run 300B SET on Definitions.

 

[213Cobra]

Have you actually heard those German Amps or are suggesting them simply from their specs?

I haven't heard the Performer m1000 monoblocks but have heard the s800 stereo amp (same essential design including their Voltair op-amp input /driver). The larger power supply monoblocks can only be better. Also have heard the Director preamp, the Phonitor headphone amps and some of their studio gear, so I have several reference points on the SPL house sound. SPL gear sounds fast, clean, muscular. The m1000 pair are more powerful than the Ampzilla 2000 (750w v. 540w into 4 ohms) and are a little more expensive than the promo price Keith was able to get on the Ampzillas. The Ampzilla has a 2000VA PT for its 540w, while the SPL has a 1350VA PT for its 750w. Between the two amps, I give the SPL an edge in transparency and the Ampzilla the edge in tone density and musicality. But both are unusually good sounding in the solid state realm. For a frequency-fetish speaker like the YG, I like the Ampzilla first.

Phil

 

[213Cobra]

I really like the look of those SPL amps Phil. Have you heard them?

I've heard the same-design little brother, the s800, which outputs 285w/ch into 4 ohms. -Phil

 

[213Cobra]

I have not heard either Lamm hybrid on YG. Why do you not care for such a combination?

I think the Lamm Hybrid will reinforce the YG's tonal liabilities rather than compensate, but more important, I don't think anything Lamm is reliable enough for Keith's personal situation. -Phil