Is there something obviously wrong with my electrical?
- Thread starter MadFloyd
- Start date
This makes me realize that I may have mistakenly reported something. Previously, the two amps were being fed by one line connected to one transformer while another transformer fed the power to his source components. I know that the transformer to the amps has been bypassed and that the two amps now each have a dedicated 20amp line to the panel. I'm not sure if the electrician bypassed the other transformer to the sources or not.
I won't go as far as this. I think Shunyata also have installed isolation transformer in their factory. The keyword is OVERSIZED such that it will not affect DTCD.
I believe he has 1kVA for front end source. It may be enough. Now he has 2kVA transformer with no use. I think he can use 2kVA for front end source. It should be more than enough.
Okay. That sounds reasonable. I admit I know little of that technology. If true then how oversized must it be, and, for a home environment, is it necessary? Or, conversely, what is the cost/benefit ratio.
I had similar problems to Mad Floyd regarding sound issues. I used many different power conditioners, had 5 - 20A dedicated lines going into my room, had electrical experts test the power coming to my house, all to no avail. Horrible thin sound, no bass, not a lot of detail, no matter what equipment I used.
I finally borrowed a small (20A) Torus rack mount conditioner which includes an isolation transformer. I plugged everything into the Torus as a test. I knew the Pass Xs300s were too much for this small unit but with everything plugged in and running, I was just about at the maximum limit of the Torus. For the first time in a couple of years I heard hope! Sounded significantly better than with anything else I tried. Took out the Torus and the system went right back to crap.
This experiment convinced me to go overkill in a big way and I purchased a Torus 90A dedicated electrical panel to feed my room. My problems were solved and I've had no further issues since the Torus with the isolation transformer was installed. I've detailed the Torus installation on this forum previously so no need to get into it again. Suffice to say, without the panel and isolation transformer, I would still be chasing my tail trying to understand why I couldn't get good sound out of a very expensive audio system. You could never convince me that isolation transformers are unnecessary.
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I saw the isolation transformer (in fact the entire electrical input at the wall) and it was ginormous
Feeds everything Steve. 5 - 20A dedicated lines and breakers. You can see the breakers inside the panel. Only my stereo system is plugged into those outlets. That's why it's 90A. Still use Triton and Typhons as well.
Total current draw when everything is turned on is around 23A. 18A of it is the Pass amps. I don't have to worry about headroom.
Actually that would have given pretty valuable data. Class D amps like the Devialet are highly efficient and I find that to pay dividends in bass. Even a few hundred dollar Crown amp is able to produce bass better than very high power linear amplifiers. If that amp still had anemic bass performance, then we would have known to look elsewhere.
Anyway, this is a great thread and conclusion. For a while now I have been saying that the way you know if you have too little amplification power subjectively is what Ian mentioned: turning up the volume causes the treble to increase but not bass. Initially they will be in sync until the amp cries uncle and bass starts to sound thinner. So everything points to the right problem having been found.
There is still a lingering issue though shown in this graph:
Assuming this microphone has not been moved between measuring the left and right channels, this indicates one of two things:
1. The room is not symmetrical
2. Listening position is not symmetrical relative to each speaker
The resonances, i.e. the two peaks below 100 Hz, are proportional to distances of the speakers to walls and listening position. Within some variation, they should be similar and land on top of each other. The two peaks are pretty different from each other and occur at different frequencies.
While probably not sonically material, at 20 Khz, the speaker in red has some kind of resonance in the tweeter the other channel does not. If these are Magico Q7s, I see found a measurement by Jeff Fritz which is hard to read but shows flat response there:
Contact the factory, give them that graph and ask them for an explanation.
Making a side point, your low frequency response deviates by 18 db. 10 db represents twice as loud perceptually. So the variations in bass response is nearly 4:1 depending on what note is playing. You need some vary large and thick acoustic products to tame those without DSP.
Correct. The area by my rack now has dedicated 15 amp (1kVA transformer) and 20 amp (2kVA transformer) outlets. I still have everything plugged into the 15amp but will probably move them over to the 20amp/2kVA outlets now.
Actually that would have given pretty valuable data. Class D amps like the Devialet are highly efficient and I find that to pay dividends in bass. Even a few hundred dollar Crown amp is able to produce bass better than very high power linear amplifiers. If that amp still had anemic bass performance, then we would have known to look elsewhere.
Anyway, this is a great thread and conclusion. For a while now I have been saying that the way you know if you have too little amplification power subjectively is what Ian mentioned: turning up the volume causes the treble to increase but not bass. Initially they will be in sync until the amp cries uncle and bass starts to sound thinner. So everything points to the right problem having been found.
There is still a lingering issue though shown in this graph:
Assuming this microphone has not been moved between measuring the left and right channels, this indicates one of two things:
1. The room is not symmetrical
2. Listening position is not symmetrical relative to each speaker
The resonances, i.e. the two peaks below 100 Hz, are proportional to distances of the speakers to walls and listening position. Within some variation, they should be similar and land on top of each other. The two peaks are pretty different from each other and occur at different frequencies.
While probably not sonically material, at 20 Khz, the speaker in red has some kind of resonance in the tweeter the other channel does not. If these are Magico Q7s, I see found a measurement by Jeff Fritz which is hard to read but shows flat response there:
Contact the factory, give them that graph and ask them for an explanation.
Making a side point, your low frequency response deviates by 18 db. 10 db represents twice as loud perceptually. So the variations in bass response is nearly 4:1 depending on what note is playing. You need some vary large and thick acoustic products to tame those without DSP.
Yes, this is a true problem that I'm not sure how to solve. My room is anything but symmetrical. Besides no two walls being parallel, the left side is somewhat open where the speakers are. I say 'somewhat' because there is a kitchen to the left. The listening room is 2 steps down with a half wall (filled with LPs). I have my speakers placed further back now (just inside the halfwall area whereas before they were where the halfwall ended) and the measurements would be no doubt be different but probably exhibit the same issues.
Ah, that explains the results there. Open floor plans are actually good from bass performance as they massively increase the volume. The transition frequency where those resonances disappear (more technically correct: they randomize) moves lower and lower with volume. But you do get asymmetry.
The good news is that you mostly have three peaks to eliminate which can be done very nicely with DSP/parametric EQ. Maybe try some solutions that work with Jriver digital path you have? It would be a cheap way to figure out if you like the effect.
The good news is that you mostly have three peaks to eliminate which can be done very nicely with DSP/parametric EQ. Maybe try some solutions that work with Jriver digital path you have? It would be a cheap way to figure out if you like the effect.
True story- my entire system draws less than 3 amps as measured by my Torus. Of course I run a Class A/B Dartzeel. In fact, my plasma draws almost as much as the rest of my system!
Yes, the Xs300s are power hogs, no question about that. If you put your ear to the wall where the conduit containing the electrical wires runs, you can actually hear the wire humming. Not dangerous, at least according to Nelson Pass and they sound fantastic!
The posts to this thread dropped off in May and here it is August. So perhaps you found a solution.
There are a number of reasons for potential light in the bass and/or overall thin sound.
I appreciate the fact that you employ Equi-Tech transformers. But your description sounds rather confusing. For example, on your first page you have several pictures and you describe one as your 20 amp transformer. Yet, it clearly shows on the label 15 Amps and to use a minimum wire size of 14 gauge which is for 15 circuits.
Moreover, as noted in your quote above, it sounds like ALL of your gear is plugged into the "dedicated" 15 amp circuit and that you intend to move EVERYTHING over to the 20 amp circuit/outlets.
If any of this is true, this is surely a significant problem as ideally I think you want each of your PL X160.8 on their OWN dedicated circuit/line.
Truly dedicated means 1 circuit/line from the service panel to the outlet. But the goal is to allow for several dedicated outlets to the listening room in order to more evenly distribute the current draw. Low current drawing amps are generally not a problem being shared with a few other low current drawing components like pre-amps and source components.
But in this case you're talking not one but 2 PL X168.8 amps each of which I'd dedicated one single 20 amp circuit/line/outlet to. And the other components can all share 3rd dedicated circuit/line/outlet if you so desire.
Let me give you an example. About 14 years ago when I started getting into dedicated lines, I started off with 2. One 15 amp for my digital source and one 20 amp for my analog pre-amp and my 300wpc@8ohm, 1200wpc@2ohm power hungry 20 amp amplifier. Made sense to me.
Then I had a 3rd dedicated 15 amp line installed for my pre-amp. Upon moving the pre-amp to its own dedicated line, the high-current drawing amp suddenly came alive. Dynamics flourished that were previously flattened out and squashed. Now dynamics and complex passages took on a whole new dynamic life that made the previous configuration sound rather flat and lifeless. Even at lower than mid-level volumes.
Turns out the pre-amp that was only drawing 33 watts was just enough of a current draw to choke and constrict the high-current amp.
The dedicated circuits primary benefit is to ensure high-current drawing amps get enough juice for dynamic and complex passages.
If I understood you correctly that all your gear is plugged into a single 15 amp circuit and the 20 amp is stand-by, (or if only your front-end gear is plugged into the 15 amp dedicated circuit and your amps are sharing a single 20amp dedicated circuit,) you should hear your system in a whole new way if you allocate one dedicated 20 amp line for each amp, even if your listening volume levels are only in the 70 - 94 db range.
This should be easy to test. You could plug all your front end source components into a 3rd 15 amp outlet perhaps using a good quality extension cable. Then plug one PL X160.8 into the Equi-Tech 15 amp circuit/outlet and the other X160.8 into the other Equi-Tech 20 amp circuit/outlet.
But for a permanent solution, you really should consider having your X160.8 mono-blocks dedicated to their own dedicated (that's qty of 2) 20 amp (or at least 15 amp) circuits/outlets with nothing else potentially drawing any current away from the amps.
I've heard good things about Equi-Tech over the years (nothing really great but nothing bad either).
In my case, I have 1 source component (a CDP) plugged into a 15 amp dedicated outlet/line/circuit and two 575wpc mono-blocks and plugged into two 20 amp outlets/lines/circuits all the way back to the service panel. With each audio circuit wired to the same phase/leg at the service panel to minimize distortions there. At each audio outlet in the listening room I employ three fabulous performing Foundation Research (now defunct) passive, dedicated, and bi-directional line conditioners which in turn are plugged into each component.
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Side Note
Moreover, you can also clean up your presentation just a bit if you move your Playback Designs MPD-5 CDP to its own dedicated circuit since digital electronics e.g. CDP's, DAC's, computers, etc all induce a bi-directional digital noise. Bi-directional digital noise implies here that the digital noise will actually travel back up the power cable into the outlet and then induce that digital noise into every other component (digital or analog) sharing that same circuit. Some even attest the digital noise will make its way back to the service panel and still induce its noise into other circuits. I'm not sure but I doubt the Equi-Tech filters this noise.
If per chance you've been plugging your digital source into the same outlet as any or all of your analog components, your audible (and perhaps inaudible) distortions just went up a bit. It's not the end of the world but certainly an audible difference.
If you happen to entertain superior line conditioners at some point, be sure that they will not limit current to your amps also.
So I use dedicated lines primarily to ensure my amps always have enough juice for dynamic and complex passages and then I employ superior line conditioners to cleanse / condition the noisy AC coming in from the street.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I do now have dedicated 20 amp lines for my monoblocks (with no transformers in the path).
My sources are all on a dedicated 20 amp circuit that has a 2kva transformer in-line. I also have a dedicated 15 amp circuit with a 1kva transformer but is not being used.
I suppose I could try moving my digital source to that circuit but I'm hesitant to do that because the 20 amp circuit has a Shunyata Typhon plugged into it.
My pleasure. Now unless you mentioned this config change in an earlier post, I need to ask:
Well, how does it sound since you made this change? Did the thinness and weak bass subside or improve? How about the dynamic? If per chance you had everything plugged into a single 15 amp outlet previously, the dynamics should be soaring now, regardless of volume levels (unless you listen at elevator music volume levels).
I'll bet dollars-to-donuts there's still room for reasonable sonic improvement. About that Shunyata Typhon that comes so highly rated. It's a glorified power strip, right? Nothing wrong with that provided it's of superior quality. However, you've got two things going on inside that Shunyata Typhon that raise red flags with me. It's not just a power strip because it includes "noise suppression" (a vague term) and whatever that means and it includes "surge protection". I don't know anything about the Shunyata Typhon but generally mfg'ers who take AC filtering or line conditioning seriously will generally say so about their products. But Shunyata seems to identify the Typhon as a "power distributor" with benefits (PDB). Hence I question this product's benefits.
Not sure why but products that include surge protection are known to induce their own sonic harm into the mix. More importantly, Shunyata does not seem to categorize the Typhon as a real or full fledged line conditioner. I'll hold back my thoughts and speculations for now and just say I would not be surprised in the least if you simply removed the Typhon from the mix and at least to test, just plug the CDP into the nearest standard wall outlet. Use an extension chord of any kind if you must. Then put on some music you're most intimately familiar with.
It's just a test to see if you can extract greater levels of musicality, so what the heck, right?
BTW, if the CDP sounds better plugged straight into the wall and if the Equi-Tech has already proven to be a sonic benefit, then the CDP should also benefit if you then try plugging it into the 15 amp Equi-Tech outlet all by its lonesome (and without the Shunyata Typhon).
You ought to take a look at what a Typhon is and does because you obviously don't know....or you are confusing it with a Triton
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